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This is not a fireside chat on games..

Actually, Assassin's Creed looks to be quite the knight in shining armor. It's got intuitive controls, parkour, the choice to assassinate however you want, crowd interactions, etc. Lots of innovative new features that look to provide tons of replayability and fun.

And the lead developer is hot! :D

I dont like overhyping something anymore, so i'll check a demo out when its there, or at least wait for reviews to rate it.
Over the past few years there have been so much promises who couldnt be lived up to: FarCry with 'open terrain', Black and White series for example.

So for now, i prefer playing the proven Hitman games, RO, and stuff like that but i'm not anticipating any games anymore.
First see it, then believe it.
 
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Assassin's Creed is the only new game I've seen that I've been impressed with lately. There doesn't seem to be too much bull**** in the videos so far, there's the standard "this is how the cities really where back then blah blah blah" that quite a few devs seem to be creaming over lately, but the gameplay looks very solid, and doesn't seem like the kinda stuff that looks awesome in promo vids and then you only get to do once. Climbing over everything is what I'm impressed with most though.
 
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Assassin's Creed does look good, but so little has been shown by the devs that I can't help wondering what they're afraid of us seeing. I'm looking forward to its release, but I won't be buying it until reviews from some non-corrupt gaming websites give it the thumbs up. I've been suckered too many times by hype in the past and I won't be bitten again.
 
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I dunno there are still good games coming out for PC guys, honestly I can see Grobut's point but it's not all doom and gloom just yet.

The problems we're speaking of here are though no doubt a product of gaming as a whole becoming more mainstream. Remember these days gaming revenue eclipses that of the film industry. Interactive entertainment is the BIG thing, everyone is getting into it and as that happens the market is bound to be flooded with slapped together cash grab products. Just like Hollywood is flooded with uncreative, formulaic and slapped together cash grab movies.

However as I said there is still hope, look at some of the games we have to look forward too or that are already out;

- Theatre of War (just grabbed it for my new PC)
- Armed Assault (will no doubt be great as it progresses)
- OFP2 (it's on the cards now)
- World in Conflict (personally I think this looks great)
- Quake Wars (not my thing but no doubt will be solid)
- Crysis (same as above)
- BiA:HH (same as above)
- GTA4 (now this looks smashing)
- Starcraft 2
- T34 vs Tiger
- Kharkov 1942
- Next gen game from BIS (unnamed as of yet)
- RO2 (whenever it's announced)
- Battle of Britain (now this I am salivating over, IL2 1946 rocks this will make the collection definitive)
- Fallout 3 (I am looking forward to it until I know for sure if they've ruined it or not)
- SS3 (same as above)
- Any number of RPG's and MMORPG's (if they're your thing)

I would argue that PC gaming is in fact alive and well, and especially strong in areas the consoles can never touch because they just don't have the control capability (until hey have keyboards and mice as standard), eg. strategy, RTS, simulation and RPG/MMORPG.

The only areas it is really getting stupid for PC are FPS, where everything is just a copy of a copy of a copy with differing settings.

So in short, don't be so pessimistic :)

Wow, man, thats the first time I read a positive post from you.
What happened? Got a gf? ;)
 
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I dunno there are still good games coming out for PC guys, honestly I can see Grobut's point but it's not all doom and gloom just yet.

Yes, there are.. but how many? and in the meantime, how many "one size fits all" Pulp games and crummy console ports are released?
The good games are still there, but they are all too few and all too infrequent.

The problems we're speaking of here are though no doubt a product of gaming as a whole becoming more mainstream. Remember these days gaming revenue eclipses that of the film industry. Interactive entertainment is the BIG thing, everyone is getting into it and as that happens the market is bound to be flooded with slapped together cash grab products. Just like Hollywood is flooded with uncreative, formulaic and slapped together cash grab movies.

We can only agree, but thats just one causating factor amongst many, we can go on listing faults of the current crop of games and the Biz, and the problems and gripes are minion! and we could spend the next 20 pages tossing them about, so lets not, lets instead look at the big picture, what is it about thease games that just doesent work? what is the underlying problem?

However as I said there is still hope, look at some of the games we have to look forward too or that are already out;

- Theatre of War (just grabbed it for my new PC)
- Armed Assault (will no doubt be great as it progresses)
- OFP2 (it's on the cards now)
- World in Conflict (personally I think this looks great)
- Quake Wars (not my thing but no doubt will be solid)
- Crysis (same as above)
- BiA:HH (same as above)
- GTA4 (now this looks smashing)
- Starcraft 2
- T34 vs Tiger
- Kharkov 1942
- Next gen game from BIS (unnamed as of yet)
- RO2 (whenever it's announced)
- Battle of Britain (now this I am salivating over, IL2 1946 rocks this will make the collection definitive)
- Fallout 3 (I am looking forward to it until I know for sure if they've ruined it or not)
- SS3 (same as above)
- Any number of RPG's and MMORPG's (if they're your thing)

I would argue that PC gaming is in fact alive and well, and especially strong in areas the consoles can never touch because they just don't have the control capability (until hey have keyboards and mice as standard), eg. strategy, RTS, simulation and RPG/MMORPG.

To be honest, i am not very impressed with that list, quite a bit of hype, pulp, console ports and "yet to be named or announced", very few that are actually promising, and in development.

And to say that PC gaming is alive and well.. no, just no, Console gaming is alive and well, just look at all thouse games! the PC only gets a fraction of that (no really, remove all the console ports, and then see what your left with that is purely for the PC.. it is fractions of the console market!), and very few of thouse are any good.

The only areas it is really getting stupid for PC are FPS, where everything is just a copy of a copy of a copy with differing settings.

No, FPS is just the absolute worst! gor blimey! the genre is long since dead now and festering in its own putresent decay!

But its hardly the only place we are seeing less than endearing comments, comments like "dull and unorigional" or "shallow" or "too damn short" etc etc etc, its not just FPS games.

So in short, don't be so pessimistic :)

I wish i had your optimism, but seeing all this pulp, and so very few and infrequent releases of something that is actually good.. i honestly dont see any reason for optimism, that just means that PC gaming is not entirely dead yet.
 
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FPS still does the trick and it has plenty of variety. I would definately not say that the FPS genre is in decline. It may be getting a bit unoriginal, but its certainly not losing its appeal. I think you may just be tired of it and I wont begrudge you that. Now we all have our own definitions of "good" games. Certainly there are high rated games but there are still those which we prefer over others regardless of reviewed score or overall popular opinion (ie, the internet). Take Myth for example. That was one hell of a buggy game back in the day but for some reason I love it the most out of all the games Ive ever played. I will say this: Games lose their appeal far quicker today than they did a decade ago. A decade ago I was 14 years old so PC upgrades were particularily difficult meaning the games I played were also relatively limited (I still remember running Homeworld on Software settings and then on a Voodoo2 when some cash rolled in). I think as our individual spending power increased (with employment if nothing else) then our gaming horizons expanded. So back in the day I put in hundreds of hours into Red Alert. I put in maybe 10-15 if even in the recent CnC3. Now, is it because CnC3 is a worse game (I do not think so) or is it because there are some many other games to play which are very easily available? Like the film industry the games industry has its gems but it all varies. Devs still pull of really top class **** today. Ill tell you that the thing which hurts gaming most are review magazines. Take a look at a PC gamer and look at the scores they give for games and look at the pros and cons. I guarantee that graphics will always always appear in either category for which might otherwise be a perfectly enjoyable and excellent game. But thats just my take on it.
 
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FPS still does the trick and it has plenty of variety. I would definately not say that the FPS genre is in decline.
I'm afraid that I would. A large number of the recent and upcoming FPS titles are "co-developed" for consoles and PC which, when translated from "Bull****" to "English" reads as "developed for console, ported to PC". The games have been boring clones of the same formula used by so many others in recent years, just with different textures. Which is sad, because there's still so much room to do something different, but developers don't. They all make the same game because if people keep buying the things, it must mean that that's all people want! It's circular logic, but they make their money, so everyone's happy.

Or are they? You have to admit, almost all the recent shooters have been pretty much the same. The protagonist has a large health pool, his adversaries have even larger health pools and a bunch of super weapons that suddenly become weak when you pick them up. You then spend most of the game single-handedly annihilating hundreds, if not thousands of enemy soldiers/aliens/monsters, occasionally complete a weak excuse for a puzzle (Oh no, this door is locked, however will I get through? OH! A panel in the next room! Ha ha, how clever of them!) before taking on a final boss/boss mission involving either another "clever" puzzle or fighting even more densely packed waves of enemies than before. As a challenge, we usually like to crank up the difficulty, but instead of making the game actually harder, all it usually does is make the enemies have even more health and you have less. It's not more challenging, it's just means you have to pump even more ridiculously high amounts of ammunition into some braindead AI before they cark it.

Once upon a time, this formula was new and cutting edge. Then we hit the year 2000 and we got over it. Just that most game companies don't realise it and we're still seeing the same things over and over. The games that make a splash these days are the ones with an exceptionally good storyline that's part of the game design rather than just a lame backstory to justify the improbable premise of the game (The evil, flying, magical, monster, XingDong clan have kidnapped your best girl! Now you must use your special supersoldier skills from your time as a secret agent to get her back!), or a gameplay mechanic that differs from the textbook one. E.g. Intelligent AI that aren't overly strong, but actually use tactics and cover to be challenging or realistic damage levels so that while you can kill easily, so can the AI. The other major winner are those using a totally different gamestyle including those rare treats, hybrid games, which take the traditional model and toss it out the window. There's a swathe of very good reasons most of us still believe Deus Ex was one of the best games ever made.

My point is that a little innovation goes a long way, but rarely do developers have the balls to do it (remembering that this is SP I'm talking about, not MP, so the risk is so much less). It's one of the main reasons I'm looking forward to Portal from Valve. Or rather, the Narbacular Drop team who, regardless of who owns them, are still not the regular Valve team. Narbacular Drop, while short, was a brilliantly executed game based on a very simple, yet previously unconsidered idea. Portal is that game, but all grown-up. These are the sorts of games that move the industry forward and love them or hate them, you can't deny that Valve has done a good thing for gaming as a whole by giving these guys the chance to show what they can do.

Innovation is still only one of the causes though. As per my previous rant, consoles are still the primary factor in the decline of PC gaming. Well, not consoles themselves per se, but developers who, in this day and age, still believe that one size fits all. No matter what your perspective (from hater to fanboy), consoles in all generations up to and including this one, have some serious limitations. Any game designed for a console will have comparatively stupid AI (because it's a lot harder and slower for a controller to aim), very few controls (which are overtly simplistic and shallow by necessity) and small levels. I understand why this is and it's not a problem - for consoles. But lazy developers simply port it to the PC and call it a game and that's just not on. Console control sets make little logical sense on a PC (if you've played CoD 2 you'll know what I mean), levels which feel huge on a console feel claustrophobic on a PC and all the little player aids that a console gamer needs to be able to play the game without it being incredibly difficult (icons all over the place, magic radars, gigantic hitboxes, etc) are redundant on a PC. They're just ridiculed as "noob" devices. Things that no-one's used in PC games for 10 years because they made it too easy. As for the AI, they remain terminally stupid, but for the PC they generally get given a better aimbot and extra health.

My point is that while these games are fantastic on the consoles for which they were designed, believing that they'll work just as well on a (generally speaking) technically superior platform with a more precise control method and the ability to handle more depth without it becoming impossible to manage, is just plain naive. A suitable metaphor would be giving someone who's just read "War and Peace" a copy of "Grug plays Soccer" and expecting them not to notice what a step backwards it is for their reading level. What they should be giving us is "Grug plays Soccer: The Director's Cut".
 
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FPS genre is in decline IMO.

I feel I have been playing the same games over and over again since the original release of Sin (talking about Sin that's a really retarded formula right there releasing exactly the same game 6 years later on a newer engine)

About you people complaining about kiddy games I also disagree with you. A game does not become fun because of the amount of violence or blood in it (after all a lot of us have fond memories of Doom and Doom2 not because of the violence but because it was something new back then). Excessive amounts of violence are often used to cover up a really bad story *cough*GTA3*cough*.

I loved the Game Cube because Nintendo actually make games that are fun not all about gore violence.
Same goes with Nintendo DS (there is a reason it is light years ahead of the PSP in sales).
The Wii is also nice it just need more Nintendo titles released for it.
 
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Agree with both PsYcH0_Ch!cKeN and Fu. Svedberg.

Keep in mind everybody, a game does not necessarily have to innovate in order to be good. Sure, there are thousands of WWII games. But some WWII games are actually very well made. Take Company Of Heroes for example. There is no "this level makes you feel like you're in blockbuster WWII movie X" pretension, it's just a very solid strategy game that does, in my opinion, many things 'just right'. It even has exaggerated caricatured soldiers, unlike most the characters in the Call of Duty's that are based on WWII movie actors. That's refreshing. Another example is RO of course - yes it's a WWII game, but it's a GOOD WWII game.

This "if it doesn't innovate, it's bad" way of thinking is just a big misconception some people have, it reeks of elitism and you miss out on a lot of good stuff with a closed mind like that.

Anyway, as for developers making the same games over and over and over, and the consumers playing them, it's because developers don't want to take the risk, like you guys mentioned. But there's another explanation: mainstream gamers actually prefer repetition. Heck, it doesn't just apply to gamers, it applies to most people in the world. Ever noticed how children's TV shows (Teletubbies, etc) repeat scenes all the time? That's because toddlers like repetition, and it helps them learn. You'd think that most people become more interested in variety and innovation when they reach adulthood... not. Just listen to commercial radio (tip: don't do it), you will soon notice that they just play the same 10 songs over and over and over, every day, for months on end with only a handful of 'new' songs thrown in now and then. Of course, the word "new" should be taken with a pinch of salt in the context of commercial radio, because it's just the same melodies from hits from the 70's with a new beat underneath it. Musical recycling. But that's a different subject.

People assume that "if it's different, or if not many people like it, it's bad" without ever trying something new or good. They just want to be spoon fed.

Or am I too cynical? Isn't there some kind of website that brainstorms on innovation in games?
 
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It would be a shame if companies like Valve do not continue to push the envelope and make kickass new games. Thankfully there are still mods with no consoler will ever have a chance to play. Actually, one of the chief sources of video game innovation are mods because they litterally have no financial risk attached.
 
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Valve have done **** all for games over the past few years, in fact, they've gone backwards with games like DoD:S, HL2, CS:S etc etc. What Valve have been doing is pushing the envelope on how we get these games, and giving games that would of failed a few years ago a good chance of becoming a success with Steam, which is a good thing.
 
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FPS still does the trick and it has plenty of variety. I would definately not say that the FPS genre is in decline. It may be getting a bit unoriginal, but its certainly not losing its appeal. I think you may just be tired of it and I wont begrudge you that.

Your assumption is not correct, i am not tired of the FPS genre, it is infact still my favorite after all thease years, what i am tired of, however, is that they have been dumbed down so much thease last years that, quite frankly, i can name decade old 2
 
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Anyone ever play Unreal? nill innovation there to be honest, but man, it was quality!

I'll show you innovation:

summon nali
summon skaarjassassin
summon skaarjassassin
summon skaarjassassin
summon skaarjassassin
summon skaarjassassin
summon skaarjassassin

giggle.

Seriously though I loved Unreal. There were unique parts to it: first enemies you come across are 2 tonne monsters with rocket launchers as opposed to zombie with shotgun. Immersion - I really felt like I was on an alien world with the sound and ambient wildlife. Benign guys in the shape of the Nalis. Cool little animations that didn't matter like enemies playing a game of dice if you didn't attack. Also the background of the plot through diaries found through the game was a first in an FPS afaik. Megaupgradeable popgun was fun too :)
 
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Hmm, perhabs the Universal Translator messages where a first.. im not sure, but really, it was by all means a standard shooter, see badguy, shoot him, what made it so good was the quality of it, the atmosphere, all the little cool things (yes, like Krall playing with Die), thouse magnificent levels, even the music, it was just plain good!

And it was loooong! you just could not finish it in an afternoon even if you had played it a 100 times before and knew exactly what to do and where to go.

Thats whats missing today, give me something like Unreal!
 
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I tried it once and stopped for some reason after about half an hour... I don't remember why though. I might try to get hold of the original again and play it through.

Btw, the anyone ever play the Wheel of Time game based on the Robert Jordan books? It used the Unreal engine so the graphics were abysmal, but the game itself was fantastic. Atmospheric, good level design, a good story and some nice things that hadn't really been tried before (like being able to place traps a AI guards in preparation for an enemy attack). It was one of those rare games that didn't have to rely on its licenced IP to be good. Or butcher it for that matter.

Also, _MB_ the quote at the bottom of your sig cracks me up!
 
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I tried it once and stopped for some reason after about half an hour... I don't remember why though. I might try to get hold of the original again and play it through.

Btw, the anyone ever play the Wheel of Time game based on the Robert Jordan books? It used the Unreal engine so the graphics were abysmal, but the game itself was fantastic. Atmospheric, good level design, a good story and some nice things that hadn't really been tried before (like being able to place traps a AI guards in preparation for an enemy attack). It was one of those rare games that didn't have to rely on its licenced IP to be good. Or butcher it for that matter.

Also, _MB_ the quote at the bottom of your sig cracks me up!

I've never heard of those. sounds interesting. And ty re the sig ;)
 
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I'll show you innovation:

summon nali
summon skaarjassassin
summon skaarjassassin
summon skaarjassassin
summon skaarjassassin
summon skaarjassassin
summon skaarjassassin

giggle.

Seriously though I loved Unreal. There were unique parts to it: first enemies you come across are 2 tonne monsters with rocket launchers as opposed to zombie with shotgun. Immersion - I really felt like I was on an alien world with the sound and ambient wildlife. Benign guys in the shape of the Nalis. Cool little animations that didn't matter like enemies playing a game of dice if you didn't attack. Also the background of the plot through diaries found through the game was a first in an FPS afaik. Megaupgradeable popgun was fun too :)
Never got that myself, but Id agree, all that FPS games have become is "Shoot bad guys", just done a little diferently. "Select enviroment" Alien world "Select enemy type" Alien - Types 1-5 "Select initial start point" Crash site "Select crashed vehicle type" Escape Pod .... Congradulations! Youve created HALO! :p
Seriously though, I really hope standard fare doesnt become Modder(s) create great Mod for main game, get bought out by original game creator, the mod gets mutated into something not as good gameplay-wise, but prettier, like Desert Combat becoming BF2. Poor Trauma Studios...

About Wheel of Time MUD, I found this on thier site "Playerkilling (pk) is an integral part of WoTmud IV, the Wheel of Time mud. We believe that the adreneline rush of the chase, head to head or group on group with other players from around the world constitutes the most intense excitement and adreneline rush that can be had in online gaming. Sorry, but let's face it: a game based on the Wheel of Time would be pathetic without the constant threat of a Fade stepping out the shadows or a fist of marauding Trollocs in the countryside on rampage.
We're not a hand-holding, smurf-following mud with a newbie-school, recall skill or a donation room where My Little Pony comes to your aid and Trollocs are wussies. It's a rough, tough world out there, but it's pure adreneline, and a ton of fun."
I dont believe that, nor do I find it fun, so Ill pass on it, though I do greatly enjoy the books.
 
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