Final Map Orel Enhanced

[Mike_Nomad]

Ok guys, I did what I could. It's not my fault that there are stupid German players who join an Armored Beasts enabled server and proceed to act like the 9 year olds that they are. If you have MATURE players on both sides then things should be fine.

We have mature players on BOTH sides... to infer otherwise is insulting and demeaning. This afternoon, we played with a few players and it was noticed that a single Tiger on the heights was just as deadly as one would imagine if there were forty Tigers. The Russians need firepower. Not weak Germans.

You brought up the TK'ing not I nor anyone else... all I said was the players would be playing canasta while waiting for a tank - especially in a fully populated server ...whether 32, 44 or 50 man. I never mentioned TK'ing for anything.

There was nothing the Russians could do but attempt to sneak around behind the heights and get the Tiger from behind by surprise. Once again, you know you asked for comments and input. Once they began to come your way you, for some strange reason, became testy about it.

Armored Beasts Mutator v 2.065 is an excellent work in progress to insinuate anything less is an insult to anyone (Admins and Players) enjoying the benefits if the mutator. AB enhances all the tanks.

I agree with you... the die is cast, the test of time has begun. Ultimately, the players will decide.

 

[dogbadger]

Its too bad the other "precious Kitty" is not on either of these versions, the Panther. Maybe its just me, but isn't leaving a historical tank out, that is in the RO arsenal, just as bad as having a non-historical tank in a map? I'm not taking sides here, as popular vote usually gets it anyway. I'm just saying that being historically correct seems to govern some decisions and is overlooked on others. I guess gameplay is the most likely reason but, if that's the case, you really shouldn't use "historical" as an overwhelming reason not to try something. I would be totally wrong but that's my two cents.

Not really aimed at you in particular but I don't see why just because a tank is available to a side at the time a map is set then that tank has to be included. This is certainly the case with the Germans armour- as they have a larger selection of usefull tanks, where the absence of a panther or tiger can be compensated for.
I would personally like to see a more minimal loadout in maps- rather than a few of each example, as if it was a tank museum display.
But thats just the way i look at it, with this number of tanks i would imagine only a couple of types per side, but appreciate variety is good for the game.

And also, without getting involved in the question of balance, just one tiger makes me think that the division found an abandoned one and played cards to see who would use it.
But again, If it's felt that works for the map, so be it.

 

[Quietus]

We have mature players on BOTH sides... to infer otherwise is insulting and demeaning. This afternoon, we played with a few players and it was noticed that a single Tiger on the heights was just as deadly as one would imagine if there were forty Tigers. The Russians need firepower. Not weak Germans.

You brought up the TK'ing not I nor anyone else... all I said was the players would be playing canasta while waiting for a tank - especially in a fully populated server ...whether 32, 44 or 50 man. I never mentioned TK'ing for anything.

There was nothing the Russians could do but attempt to sneak around behind the heights and get the Tiger from behind by surprise. Once again, you know you asked for comments and input. Once they began to come your way you, for some strange reason, became testy about it.

Armored Beasts Mutator v 2.065 is an excellent work in progress to insinuate anything less is an insult to anyone (Admins and Players) enjoying the benefits if the mutator. AB enhances all the tanks.

I agree with you... the die is cast, the test of time has begun. Ultimately, the players will decide.

Lots of stuff there. First I'm not insulting anyone except for those players that act like little kids "Give me Tygore b4 i kill yous" you know what I'm talking about. 2nd: I'm trying to keep it historical so that's why T34-85 isn't an option. 3rd: Tiger on the hill what to do? Well there's a combination of various things the Russians can do to overcome it. I could list various tactics but I'd rather not, I mean people can think for themselves I hope. 4th: I'm not insinuating AB is bad, I don't know where you're getting that from. I'm Perplexed....You don't need a magnifying glass to figure out how much I love AB. So anyway

 

[Mike_Nomad]

Lots of stuff there. First I'm not insulting anyone except for those players that act like little kids "Give me Tygore b4 i kill yous" you know what I'm talking about. 2nd: I'm trying to keep it historical so that's why T34-85 isn't an option. 3rd: Tiger on the hill what to do? Well there's a combination of various things the Russians can do to overcome it. I could list various tactics but I'd rather not, I mean people can think for themselves I hope. 4th: I'm not insinuating AB is bad, I don't know where you're getting that from. I'm Perplexed....You don't need a magnifying glass to figure out how much I love AB. So anyway

The Russians need firepower. Not weak Germans.

I too, feel the same way about AB.

 

[Stern1900]

Played this card yesterday and my problem was, that the tank not automatik reload. I must hit "r" than the tank begin to reload. Is this an bug or an feature.

 

[Bolt]

It's a feature: now you can choose what type of round do you need. I think it's way more better this way, you just need to get used to it.

 

[Keystone]

it was noticed that a single Tiger on the heights was just as deadly as one would imagine if there were forty Tigers.

LOL playing with a few players ofcourse it will be situation like this. Players in axis will take a Tiger and teams will be looks -> axis 1 Tiger, 1 Stug, vs 2T34, but if there is more players germans will have also some weak tanks like PzIII, but allies still have the same tanks, even KV is quite strong when its on angle against for example PzIV. You thought that now with new forces you'll have superiority on long distance and that you now can freely go to heights? It will be never possible, german always were better on long distance. And its impossible that 1 Tiger can have control of all area of heigts, map is too big, there are so many ways, so it can go through west field, east field, also I many times rode from South Lake to Central even Tiger on heights and when was shooting at me, he never didin't hit, you must just confuse enemy by sometimes turn right, slow down etc, not always go straight and think that nobody hit you. Also what you expected against tiger if you are alone in T34/76. When I see some teammate, I'm always following him, if we spot a tiger he don't have any chance against 2 tanks than. It just seem to you that axis have still more chances. Why you think you should have chances going to heights when they are controlled this area. This is just advantage of german tanks that are better on long distance. But if russians are controlled heights. You don't know how russians can be so difficult to banish them away from heights. You don't know beacuse you haven't played yet on more than 10 players on Orel. T34 can so easily destroy a Tiger when he arrives at heights. Just it only must hide behind some buildings or somewhere and wait for him. There can be some situation that unfortunetly germans are controlled all heights and for russians there will be a little difficult to retake heights. But also can be situation that russians are controlled heights and none Tiger won't take them. Also consider that things that at start map, russians are always first at Central Heights if you know which way is the shortest, you'll have time to hide at Central Heights and wait for them and now with only 1 Tiger it will be very easy to take heights playing russians. You are just too accustomed that you were in tank and always have some chance in face to face on long distance. You must use wrong tactics playing T34/76. This tank is so fast that if I'm quite close to Tiger, I almost always kill him.

 

[Mike_Nomad]

Cool Keystone.... yes we've played with a full server many, many times. You must be a great tanker... I'll bet I can learn from you.

 

[Reservoir Dog]

Not really aimed at you in particular but I don't see why just because a tank is available to a side at the time a map is set then that tank has to be included. This is certainly the case with the Germans armour- as they have a larger selection of usefull tanks, where the absence of a panther or tiger can be compensated for.
I would personally like to see a more minimal loadout in maps- rather than a few of each example, as if it was a tank museum display.
But thats just the way i look at it, with this number of tanks i would imagine only a couple of types per side, but appreciate variety is good for the game.

And also, without getting involved in the question of balance, just one tiger makes me think that the division found an abandoned one and played cards to see who would use it.
But again, If it's felt that works for the map, so be it.

It wasn't a question of whether it can be compensated for, it was a question of historical significance. There has been a discussion on this thread about tank loadouts on the German side and "historical" keeps being mentioned as a reason for not trying an idea. This question was more directed to Quietus actually.

1 Tiger on the map tends to fall into your category of a "tank museum display," so, if I'm reading your post correctly, you are ok with one Tiger but not one Panther. I am not understanding the point your trying to make.

 

[Quietus]

It wasn't a question of whether it can be compensated for, it was a question of historical significance. There has been a discussion on this thread about tank loadouts on the German side and "historical" keeps being mentioned as a reason for not trying an idea. This question was more directed to Quietus actually.

1 Tiger on the map tends to fall into your category of a "tank museum display

I'm trying to strike a balance between historical & gameplay. No T34-85 because Russians didn't have them, no Panther not because Germans didn't have them but because they would be too imbalancing against the Russians. If Russians had their SU-152 things would be different.

 

[dogbadger]

It wasn't a question of whether it can be compensated for, it was a question of historical significance. There has been a discussion on this thread about tank loadouts on the German side and "historical" keeps being mentioned as a reason for not trying an idea. This question was more directed to Quietus actually.

1 Tiger on the map tends to fall into your category of a "tank museum display," so, if I'm reading your post correctly, you are ok with one Tiger but not one Panther. I am not understanding the point your trying to make.

The point I made was more triggered by you mentioning adding the panther, as opposed to a direct reply to your statement,(which you say is aimed at quietus anyway) and indeed not specifically directed at that tank. I personally would prefer to see a more minimal loadout at spawn, rather than a mish-mash of every model that was available at the date in which a particular map is set.
However clearly in mid '43- it's not a problem for germans if you leave out some of their best armour, as every German tank is available by this point anyway, and there's plenty of quality.
Not the case with the Russians, where you can't afford to leave out their best, the t34.

But when people say "historical" in this context (ie quietus > no '85) doesn't this simply mean they don't want to include a tank that was not produced in time for the period in which the battle was set? Do people know the accurate historical loadout for this engagement? ( i thought this map was mearly based on the operations near orel on the northern edge of the kursk salient)

as for second point- sorry no quite the opposite, I should have been more clear. I hoped to imply that i didn't particularly like the idea of having just one tiger - I used this as the relevant example, but i feel the same about the sole representation of any tank model.(when considering large tank maps of course)

...but if there is more players germans will have also some weak tanks like PzIII,...

this is not a weak tank, at least not from the point of view of effectiveness.

 

[Keystone]

this is not a weak tank, at least not from the point of view of effectiveness.

So which german tank in RO is more weak than PzIII? Ofcourse if we mean with AB.

 

[Quietus]

1 Tiger on the map tends to fall into your category of a "tank museum display"

Here's how I would look at it: Just pretend the Tiger doesn't even exist. when you join a game as Germans just grab whatever tanks are avaliable and use those to the best of your ability. The other German tanks are FAR from worthless, in fact the only one that CAN'T put a hole in ALL Russian tanks at 1000 meters is the PzIII. However the PzIII has good armor so just stand off with it and the Russians will have to go for a turret shot on you (hard to do at extreme range). Back to the Tiger: just laugh as you see the chuckle heads at spawn fighting over the Tiger, a noob in a Tiger is as good as dead anyway while a vet in any other German tank can do very well if he plays smart. Whenever I'd play as Germans I never, NEVER have used the Tiger online on Orel or BDJ (hard to believe but it's true). It's more challenging (and requires more skill) to use the other German tanks. I just grab any other tank and pretend the Tiger doesn't exist.

 

[Heinz]

looks like a nice change to the map Quietus, and you've taken the buckshot from the chicken gallery here I see. Stick to your guns re the T34/85. it was not in the field in force until MARCH 1944. Not even close.

also, I see much confusion amongst the posters here re this map, supposedly re-creating the area of the front near Orel, and Kursk, which was later, and in July 1943. Neither a solitary Panther nor T34/85 was anywhere near Orel in March-June 1943.

once you knock a brick off the historical wall, then it might as well all come down. then there is no reason not to include any tank, in any numbers, to answer the clarion call of "play balance".

Ironically, no one gave a rats-*** about play balance on the stock Arad map for, what, the first 6 months of the games release?

you've done good work here. making a great map is no guarrantee it will be played greatly. just look at Slyk's RO-Berezina. I never failed to have great success as Russians, on any version of Orel. Speed, speed, speed. it'a all about the speed of the T34. modifying, and further modifying maps to cater to inexperienced players gets all of us nowhere.

"you can lead a horse to water......."

 

[Quietus]

I see much confusion amongst the posters here re this map, supposedly re-creating the area of the front near Orel, and Kursk, which was later, and in July 1943. Neither a solitary Panther was anywhere near Orel in March-June 1943.

That's what I thought I remembered. I think I was argueing with Karl Stiner about it and pointed out that there were no Panthers at Orel. It's a compromise between historic correctness and balance and since we don't have all the tanks that were at the Kursk area modeled in RO there will be compromises. But where I draw the line is putting stuff in that didn't even exist at the timeperiod. Actually I'd like to know if you have information on what tanks (and how many) the Germans & Russians had in the area of Orel at the time. I don't know the details (except for no Panthers) and I forgot where I found that info.

 

[Mike_Nomad]

Ya know, even with only one Tiger..... I'd welcome Keystone to "show me all about" his prowess in a T-34... Heinz, you too!!

 

[Quietus]

Ya know, even with only one Tiger..... I'd welcome Keystone to "show me all about" his prowess in a T-34... Heinz, you too!!

On a full server Tigers are #1 target and you'll have steel rain coming at you from all directions ensuring your demise. HE rounds still cause some damage and with enough of them it adds up. Just one on one a bad tanker in a Tiger will still get killed by a good tanker in a T34. A good tanker in a Tiger and it'll be more difficult 1 on 1 but not impossible. The main thing about a Tiger is its escort tanks. If it has no escorts to protect flanks it's dead for sure. And even if it does have escorts it's still dead if Russians have good players. Germans aren't as untouchable as you think.

 

[Mike_Nomad]

On a full server Tigers are #1 target and you'll have steel rain coming at you from all directions ensuring your demise. HE rounds still cause some damage and with enough of them it adds up. Just one on one a bad tanker in a Tiger will still get killed by a good tanker in a T34. A good tanker in a Tiger and it'll be more difficult 1 on 1 but not impossible. The main thing about a Tiger is its escort tanks. If it has no escorts to protect flanks it's dead for sure. And even if it does have escorts it's still dead if Russians have good players. Germans aren't as untouchable as you think.

Then you are telling me you have purposely designed the map for the Germans to lose. Cool. I give up.... I truly am done here in this thread and with all the infinte incarnations of Orel.

I'll stick with the Gentlemen Version at least there we can fun instead of dying alot because of map slant. Please understand, I respect your rights as a mapper and your obvious talents. You do a great job and I thank you for the support you offer the RO platform.

By the way, the textures and distance view is superb...

But if I want history lessons.. thjere is the library and so forth. I want to PLAY the game.... the game man - the game not be force fed history lessons.

The summer, with its summer vacations, is coming on and we should all be looking forward to providing appealing game play for the expected newbies...

That's all I have to say.... I am truly done with this thread.

 

[Quietus]

Then you are telling me you have purposely designed the map for the Germans to lose. Cool. I give up.... I truly am done here in this thread and with all the infinte incarnations of Orel.

I'll stick with the Gentlemen Version at least there we can fun instead of dying alot because of map slant. Please understand, I respect your rights as a mapper and your obvious talents. You do a great job and I thank you for the support you offer the RO platform.

By the way, the textures and distance view is superb...

But if I want history lessons.. thjere is the library and so forth. I want to PLAY the game.... the game man - the game not be force fed history lessons.

The summer, with its summer vacations, is coming on and we should all be looking forward to providing appealing game play for the expected newbies...

That's all I have to say.... I am truly done with this thread.

LOL! I didn't design the map for the Germans to lose. I designed it so the team with the better players will win. If you have experts on the Russians they will destroy noobs on the Germans & vice versa. If you have equally matched players on both sides then it should be "balanced" with no large bias that either side can't overcome if they are good. I tried to provide balanced loadouts so the outcome is not predetermined on the tank loadouts but on the skill of the players. No skill=no win.

 

[Quietus]

Now, here is where I must jump in and take a bit of an issue with someone ? who previously posted about playing only on the FK servers that are always full. GRANTED, they ARE always full, which is all well and good, congrats to the "top ranked" RO servers, but for myself, and other players, I ask this: why would you wait, wait, wait, and wait all day or all night, or even for an hour, to jump into one of the so called "top ranked" servers, when there are MANY well played, well admined, great servers with all the latest maps, that sit empty, or half empty. Do players NOT understand, and I know some do NOT, that a server that does not have regular players day in and day out will ALWAYS sit empty. It takes players to populate a server. Our servers don't beat down any doors as far as being FULL all the time 24/7, but, I can tell you this, we have full servers when OTHER players and our clan members are in there, regular players who play daily who enjoy a good competitive game w/o childish a**hat behavior. Taking NOTHING away from the "most" played servers, BUT....give other just as great servers a chance, play em once in a while when you can't get on the top ranked servers, no matter WHOSE server it is...and you may be pleasantly surprised......
OFF the soapbox

Yeah people just gravitate toward one server then it's like a cascade effect where people just continually go where the players are and barely consider there are other servers in the universe. So for the lazy players out there who like armored beasts and want to know what servers run it here are all the ones I could find:

Track them down then put them in your "favorites" so you wont lose/forget about them. (one server desperately needs updating but that's another issue)