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Any plans for more Anti-Tank weapons?

What the hell are you on about? The Ferdinand was not open topped. Putting 200mm armor at the front and then leaving the top open would have been completely idiotic. :rolleyes:

You must be thinking of the Marder or Nashorn.

Ok you are right, but there are some hatches that are quite thinn. Plus the armor on top is at its maximum 20mm, no match for the 1KG RPG-42. And at Kursk it didn't have any MG they put MG:s on it in Switzerland and it became Elefant. This is what happenes to Elefant after having a greanade tossed inside!!!

http://tank.uw.ru/articles/samohod/ferdinand_a12/gallery/index.khtml#
 
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At the start of their war, the Americans were similarly poorly equipped in infantry AT capabilities. The principle was that tanks would take out enemy tanks. Shermans were no match for the late-war German tanks even in massed numbers, however, but the US air superiority prevailed over the steel beasts.

And yeah, Bazookas were made for the poor infantryman and sent to Russia too (and copied by the Germans in the form of the Panzershreck). Sticky bombs were not general issue, even if they are mentioned in a G.I. tutorial book and shown in Saving Private Ryan. They were improvised weapons.

As to improvised AT weapons, I think all nations used them, some to a greater extent than others. When you have no AT weapons and you're facing armour, you stick explosives in a bundle and find a way to deploy it against the enemy. Other means were used too: anything that burns and explodes may help immobilize a tank. Molotov cocktails, even iron bars and wooden logs were used against tanks*.

The Spanish may have invented the Molotov Cocktail, but the Finns gave it its name.

Panzerfausts were hugely effective weapons and a huge number of tank casualties in the last stages of the war were caused by brave infantrymen with Panzerfausts.

According to Soviet doctrine, AT guns had the main AT role, and later AT tanks shared that role. I'm not saying that infantrymen or tanks didn't do their part when needed, but that was the doctrine. According to German doctrine, tanks were to be used against the weakest part of the enemy forces and that does not mean enemy tanks. German tanks assumed an AT role in '43. Before that their role was to create breakthroughs where the enemy was the weakest (or in the Schwerpunkt, wherever it was).

*Probably weak and early-war tanks. I can't see iron bars and logs hindering the late-war monstrosities much.
 
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Dude you should seriously consider reading about WW2 before saying something this dumb! What about antitank guns?!?? Do you have to hug the tank to damage it? Dude just think before posting. Almoust 80% of soviet tank losses in WW2 where to antitank guns. Same story for Germans the tank to tank battles are comperably rare..

And earlier somebody dowted what the grenade would do to the ferdinand? Dude the ferdinand is open top, a grenade inside and you have a German meat stew inside! To make matters worse you have no MG on the Ferdinand making the Tank killer rather defensless against infantry.
please DUDE. Its about portable anti tank weapons possible to be used from ONE single soldier, without any major training. A PAK, isnt really portable and usuable for one soldier. It also needs either experienced or with the use of it trained soldiers (artilley units), and some of the heaviest loses to soviet tanks have also been done from infantry (Berlin, K
 
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At the start of their war, the Americans were similarly poorly equipped in infantry AT capabilities. The principle was that tanks would take out enemy tanks. Shermans were no match for the late-war German tanks even in massed numbers, however, but the US air superiority prevailed over the steel beasts.

The sherman, was in its late versions, quite capable of handling german medium armor. Though most sherman loses have been counted to panthers. It was comparable to the Panzer IV G. The Firefly, equiped with the british 17pounder, even if just used by brittish forces, was also a good design for a medium tank.

Shermans where never designed for anti tank roles, rather for infantry support. They "evolved" into this situation, and the many sherman versions like the jumbo, equiped with a 105mm howitzer, show that its still hase been used in that role. U.S. Army envisioned two main roles for tanks. Infantry support and breakthrough. according to the Army doctrine of the time, tanks were not supposed to engage other tanks. The easy architecture, made the sherman so usefull. It was near everywhere possible to produce and alter it. If used only against medium tanks, except the panther, the sherman was alright and usefull. The lack of a heavy tanks in the allied forces, lead to lot of heavy losses.
 
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The only picture in Venom's link of a Ferdinand that was actually trashed had a pop-up over the thumbnail saying it was done by a bomb from a Pe-2. :confused:

As regards Jed..Wuk's post, I think the infamous Russian ampulomet could theoretically be used effectively against light tanks and vehicles. It was, in essence, a kind of mortar that lobbed Molotov cocktails up to 250 metres.

ampulomet2.jpg


I think the drawbacks of a weapon that tries to shoot a glass projectile full of flammable liquid at high speed are pretty obvious, though. :rolleyes: It was a stop-gap measure whilst the Soviets tried to come up with better weapons or tactics for handling tanks.
 
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The sherman, was in its late versions, quite capable of handling german medium armor. Though most sherman loses have been counted to panthers. It was comparable to the Panzer IV G. The Firefly, equiped with the british 17pounder, even if just used by brittish forces, was also a good design for a medium tank.

Shermans where never designed for anti tank roles, rather for infantry support. They "evolved" into this situation, and the many sherman versions like the jumbo, equiped with a 105mm howitzer, show that its still hase been used in that role. U.S. Army envisioned two main roles for tanks. Infantry support and breakthrough. according to the Army doctrine of the time, tanks were not supposed to engage other tanks. The easy architecture, made the sherman so usefull. It was near everywhere possible to produce and alter it. If used only against medium tanks, except the panther, the sherman was alright and usefull. The lack of a heavy tanks in the allied forces, lead to lot of heavy losses.

Exactly. The Sherman was designed as infantry support, with the M10 Wolverine, M18 Hellcat, and M36 Jackson taking the role of tank destroyers. U.S. armored doctrine was to have tanks and tank destroyers. Tanks were supposed to support the infantry, while tank destroyers (which were usually well armed but lightly armored) were supposed to engage enemy armor.


As for the panzerschrek, it's hardly needed in the game. If anything, I'd rather see the Russians getting lend-lease bazookas before the Germans get panzerschreks. The currently modeled panzerfausts are more than a match for basically any vehicle they encounter, while the PTRD (once it's modified to correct penetration values) should be utterly worthless against anything but halftracks in the later war maps.
 
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How common were land-lease bazookas anyway? From what I read and see not very common at all. If they were to be included they had to be really, really rare... to a point where we just might do without them. Afterall they are supposed to be operated by a two-men crew which will require a lot of coding and testing to get done correctly.

I'm not sure how common anti-tank mines were with the russians, but I'd rather see them.
 
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The sherman, was in its late versions, quite capable of handling german medium armor. Though most sherman loses have been counted to panthers. It was comparable to the Panzer IV G. The Firefly, equiped with the british 17pounder, even if just used by brittish forces, was also a good design for a medium tank.

Indeed. A Firefly could easily take on any Tiger or Panther in a direct head to head fight. That 17lber was one of the best AT guns of the war, and the Shermans relatively thin armour is no matter when all the tanks involved can easily one hit kill each other.

I'm sure a number of people here have read that interview with a Soviet tank commander, who used a number of lend lease tanks. The Sherman being his favourite. Indeed he prefered his 76mm armed Sherman to a T34. Which should say a lot. When most people think of a Sherman they think of the older 75mm armed ones. The latest ones with improved ammo storage, improved cross country performance and the much better 76mm gun were easily a match for a pzIV H. Though the 76mm gun lagged behind the 17lber a lot, so I wouldn't fancy the chances of a 76mm Sherman against a Panther.
 
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Ok you are right, but there are some hatches that are quite thinn. Plus the armor on top is at its maximum 20mm, no match for the 1KG RPG-42. And at Kursk it didn't have any MG they put MG:s on it in Switzerland and it became Elefant. This is what happenes to Elefant after having a greanade tossed inside!!!

http://tank.uw.ru/articles/samohod/ferdinand_a12/gallery/index.khtml#
2 pounds of TNT isn't going to do much against the top of a Ferdinand (30mm). It's like lighting a cherry bomb on the hood of your car. All the energy from the blast will be focused upwards. The majority of Ferdinands losts in Kursk were due to mechanical failures and mines.
 
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Ok you are right, but there are some hatches that are quite thinn. Plus the armor on top is at its maximum 20mm, no match for the 1KG RPG-42. And at Kursk it didn't have any MG they put MG:s on it in Switzerland and it became Elefant. This is what happenes to Elefant after having a greanade tossed inside!!!

http://tank.uw.ru/articles/samohod/ferdinand_a12/gallery/index.khtml#

I can not found any RPG-42, only a RG-42, which is more or less a HE-charge and a RPG-43, which is a HEAT hand grenade, at least from wikipedia. :confused: Though they dont say how effective it was really in penetrating armor sadly.


The only picture in Venom's link of a Ferdinand that was actually trashed had a pop-up over the thumbnail saying it was done by a bomb from a Pe-2. :confused:

As regards Jed..Wuk's post, I think the infamous Russian ampulomet could theoretically be used effectively against light tanks and vehicles. It was, in essence, a kind of mortar that lobbed Molotov cocktails up to 250 metres.

ampulomet2.jpg


I think the drawbacks of a weapon that tries to shoot a glass projectile full of flammable liquid at high speed are pretty obvious, though. :rolleyes: It was a stop-gap measure whilst the Soviets tried to come up with better weapons or tactics for handling tanks.

jea ... that weapons seems not be very save. But as said. IF you look to all nations, that have been involved into the war, used with good industry and military, developed for their infantry some kind of quite effective directly usable AT-weapon, like the Bazooka, Piat, Pzfaust, Schreck, and some other more, there where even small by 2 men portable5 or 7,5cm paks (cant rember the name), similar to the 88-mm rocket launcher "puppchen" for para-troopers on german side.

The only exception are the russian/soviet soldiers, as all i can find, that has been used in large quantities are the ... PT and the AT-grenades, I dont doubt that this weapons can destroy or damage light vehicles, but it still held a heavy danger to the shoter compared to its abilty for damage. The bazooka and pf-faust/schreck, could be used on some greater distance and safer for the soldier (at least with the Panzerfaust 60,80) and with much higher potential damage. The PT is not a weapon that realy can destroy a tank with the first shot, and some serious damage are more or less luck, and completly useless against most medium tanks, with the At-grenades you have to get very close to the tank, and also place it on the weakest armor, at the tob, to get the max-effect from its charge. With fausts and bazookas, its more or less aiming at the target and you have a great chance of penetration and destroying the vehicle completly, regardless from which direction you hit the tank really.


Iam just currious, why soviets lack in such a weapon like the faust or schreck. Most development had a reason, like teh Panzerfaust, to have a fast answer to the "mass" of enemy vehicles on the east front. It seems to me, that the soviet lead, just didnt cared about to develope such a weapon.

Exactly. The Sherman was designed as infantry support, with the M10 Wolverine, M18 Hellcat, and M36 Jackson taking the role of tank destroyers. U.S. armored doctrine was to have tanks and tank destroyers. Tanks were supposed to support the infantry, while tank destroyers (which were usually well armed but lightly armored) were supposed to engage enemy armor.

Jea sadly many just see the allied tank losses, look at the german tanks and start to compare in a useless manner. The sherman, designed as light to medium, is no match for a heavy vehicle like the tiger. the tiger was also not always and everywhere present. It should be compared to armor on the somewhat same level. Some of the most used tanks on german side have been the panther and no doubt panzer IV. The panther was one of the most common tanks in the west and outreached, as medium tank the sherman. But its maybe interesting to note, that from most allied standarts the Panther would be classified as heavy tank, while, the germans classified there tank from its use, but the soviets from its weight and gun, if i rember right. The panther is, a medium tank in german classification, but would be heavy from russian, cause of the weight (about 40 tons) and the long gun. I dont know it for the US, but i guess considering there medium and heavy tanks (if any), they would probably classify the panther as heavy as well.

Against tanks in africa, like the Panzer III and early Panzer IV, the sherman was also somewhat "even". first the new equiped Pazer IV and Panzer III with better 7,5 and 5cm guns and aditional armor, really outreached the sherman in any way, untill it got updated with new 76mm guns.

History of tank development, is always like a lego-precept, where one invention lead to another, where the Tiger development (frezed in past by the german lead) got boosted with the heavy KVs and T34 and the panther has been a completly new design, as answer to the medium T34. The Sherman got upguned with way better guns in 1944, from the heavy losses in africa and normady caused by modern Panzer IV and panthers. And where tanks like the Mathilda II, called as well queen of the desert, lead in 41/42 to the Panzer IV F2 called "mark IV special" by brittish forces. Also even some single battles (kasserine) lead to new thinking and development, after Africa US-forces realised that the old "mutli turret" concept used like in the M3 Lee for example, a pre ww2 era design, was not usefull anymore. It was always important who would be able to learn faster from his enemy and the combat.
 
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Going with the oof-topic sub-thread here.
According to Soviet doctrine, AT guns had the main AT role, and later AT tanks shared that role. I'm not saying that infantrymen or tanks didn't do their part when needed, but that was the doctrine.
I'd say that on all side, the biggest tank killer were AT-guns rather than tanks.

According to German doctrine, tanks were to be used against the weakest part of the enemy forces and that does not mean enemy tanks. German tanks assumed an AT role in '43. Before that their role was to create breakthroughs where the enemy was the weakest (or in the Schwerpunkt, wherever it was).
I don't think their doctrine really changed. Attacking at the weakest point wasn't new. And Germany always used tanks for anti-tank roles, just that AT guns didn't have the same offensive capability.

Indeed. A Firefly could easily take on any Tiger or Panther in a direct head to head fight. That 17lber was one of the best AT guns of the war, and the Shermans relatively thin armour is no matter when all the tanks involved can easily one hit kill each other.
I think we'd learnt the hard way from Africa, and wanted a tank with a big AT capability. So much so, the Germans wanted to knock-out out the Firefly first in an engagment. The response was to paint the barrels to try and hide the longer (huge?) barrel.

I'm sure a number of people here have read that interview with a Soviet tank commander, who used a number of lend lease tanks. The Sherman being his favourite. Indeed he prefered his 76mm armed Sherman to a T34. Which should say a lot. When most people think of a Sherman they think of the older 75mm armed ones. The latest ones with improved ammo storage, improved cross country performance and the much better 76mm gun were easily a match for a pzIV H. Though the 76mm gun lagged behind the 17lber a lot, so I wouldn't fancy the chances of a 76mm Sherman against a Panther.
He liked the seats. And the general comfort. And not having to scrape thick grease off the 76mm shells. :D
Russia got a 50:50 mix of 75mm and 76mm Shermans. I think that the Russian 76mm fell somewhere between the American 75mm and 76mm in performance, possibly closer to the 75mm. Not helpped by not knowing which type of 76mm AP shells were sent with the Shermans

But its maybe interesting to note, that from most allied standarts the Panther would be classified as heavy tank, while, the germans classified there tank from its use, but the soviets from its weight and gun, if i rember right.
Your right with weight being an important factor in Soviet classification. Also German had to "re-jig" it's classifcation, so that the early PzIV were heavy tanks, and late PzIV were medium tanks.
There is a story that before Barbarossa (maybe before the French campaign) a Russian military attach
 
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HEy

HEy

2 pounds of TNT isn't going to do much against the top of a Ferdinand (30mm). It's like lighting a cherry bomb on the hood of your car. All the energy from the blast will be focused upwards. The majority of Ferdinands losts in Kursk were due to mechanical failures and mines.

It's 20mm not 30mm, besides if you look at the armor you can see that the front part has a lot of grills and stuff a grenade there makes more damage and putting it into space between the gun and roof and you have gun damage! Besides putting a grenade into tracks will immobilise the elefant, then go up open a hatch and toss a F-1 inside, then boom splat...

16 Elefants where lost to infantry action at Kursk... :)
 
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Going with the oof-topic sub-thread here.
I'd say that on all side, the biggest tank killer were AT-guns rather than tanks.
I think too, thats very true. The IS2 development history proves that! One of the reasons to pick the 122mm gun was the mass of produced shells and their strong "splash" damage. It was designed as a heavy brake through tank, with the aim against infantry, PAK's and strong fortifications mainly. For that purpose, a gun like the A-19 artillery was very good, plus it proved to be a well enough gun against panthers and tigers. After analysing the battle of kurks, the A-19 122mm artillery gun showed a good perfomance against tigers, sometimes the only gun that was able to penetrate it, which was frontaly not possible for the widely used Zis-3 guns. One of the best and most common soviet AT-guns. The "big cats"made the Zis-3 artillery crew's life really difficult!

It's 20mm not 30mm, besides if you look at the armor you can see that the front part has a lot of grills and stuff a grenade there makes more damage and putting it into space between the gun and roof and you have gun damage! Besides putting a grenade into tracks will immobilise the elefant, then go up open a hatch and toss a F-1 inside, then boom splat...

16 Elefants where lost to infantry action at Kursk... :)

with high losses to enemy vehicles. 1 Single Ferdinand/Elephant gun, was able to hold a hill for near almost 2 days, shoting of more then 40 or 50 vehicles and guns, before infantry was able to take him out, after they destroyed his tracks. But the Elephant was anyway a development, without future, and only to fill a gap, resp. a side-production from the Tiger development. The extrem heavy armour and great gun, same as used for the King Tiger (kwk 43 ?), beeing able to take out any tank on 3000m with ease saved him from beeing a totall distaster. non the less it still shows that infantry always took a important role in engaging tanks, you anyway never now, what in a combat situation happens.


For the german doctrine. The tanks have been devloped for there tactical role and primary use on the battlefield. It should be taken into account, that after 1918, it was forbidden for the german military to either produce nor maintain any tank troops. This circumstance, though ironcialy maybe helped the "tank" troops to be considered as a single working unit, aside the usual infantry. Unlike other nations that still looked in the tanks like "modern" cavalry units and for infantry support mainly OR crushing through enemy lines and attacking there supply routes, support units etc. (comonwealth/US doctrine from 1940). Just to rember Guderian for his famous ideas regarding tanks, comparable maybe to J. F. C. Fuller on brittish side. It was Guderians ideas and knowledge that made the german tank forces what they have been. The Panzer I has been produced for more or less just "training", and the panzer II as a stop-gap, while the Panzer III and Panzer IV, should be later when the war starts the backbone of the german army. The truth though was, that the panzer II has been used in a large scale during the early war stages.

The panzer IV, had his role for support, hence the short 7,5cm gun which was in that time a somewhat large gun for a tank, and the 3,7cm for the Panzer III with the main goal to engage tanks. So they had 2 tanks each with a different goal. Later the french tanks revealed, that this concept proved to be more or less useless, as a good medium battle tank, should be always able to deal with all the different conditions on the field, also beeing able to support infantry ,engaging them AND fighting against tanks effictevly, Battles with the french Char B or Somua proved theire ineffectiveness in direct combat. Only the tactical advantage saved the germans from beeing overun. The panzer III showed not really to be a medium, if any then a "light" tank. His gun was not able to give enough firepower, destryoing the most common medium or even light tanks, with his 3,7cm and the armou also proved to be vulnerable to near any tank. The only tank, that realy proved to be somewhat usefull in tank combat, was the panzer IV, which was cause of his short gun not designed for it. this later has lead to the decisino in germany to use the Panzver IV as main tank and the panzer III only for support. The abilty for the turret to also carry a 5cm gun, keeped the Panzer III in service as a light vehicle for clearing. It got later a short 7,5cm to be used in infantry support. The Panzer IV, had a turret good enough to carry a long barreled 7,5 high velocity gun. But this was also first considered after the most of the time better armored and armed tanks in the USSR. The tactical wins, german tank troops always scored in the past lead the german leadership to the thought, there tank forces would be able to handle any sitution quite well, which was proved in africa and russia just wrong. Always where the germans meet a enemy with the same tactical advantage, it was shown, that there tanks had hard fights against the enemies. A main reason for the development of the Panzer IV F2/G was the hard fights in Africa against the famous matildas, known to whiststand any usual german anti tank gun, except the also famous 88! Sometimes battles have been decided ONLY by how many matildas have been destroied. This was more important in africa, as the comonwealth troops had in the early war a better picture of the german tactics and a better tactical understanding as whole compared to the sovets that first later between 43 leared how to deal in the right way against the german military machine.

Germany had from the begining tanks designed in the role JUST to engage tanks, they just failed horrorible in that role, cause of there weak character. Single KVs have been able to hold crossroads and important positions cause no german tank was able to take them out effictevly, The mass of T34 was not really possible to be penetrated from distance by Panzer III and Panzer IV. It was again only the tactical advantage, excelent training AND ... radiod(comunitcation between the units), that saved the germans from totall debacles and beeing overun. To many soviet tank where not equiped with radios as standart in 41 and there tactics have been also not really well edeveloped for the tanks. A result of stalins cleaning in his military ranks. The panther was the result of this battles. The germans tried from the begining to fitt there tanks in the role for the blitzkrieg, where great flexibility was the key, they first very late realized the need of a "heavy" and good "medium" tank.
 
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It's 20mm not 30mm, besides if you look at the armor you can see that the front part has a lot of grills and stuff a grenade there makes more damage and putting it into space between the gun and roof and you have gun damage! Besides putting a grenade into tracks will immobilise the elefant, then go up open a hatch and toss a F-1 inside, then boom splat...

16 Elefants where lost to infantry action at Kursk... :)
You really know nothing about tanks. What are you sources for this armor data? The top of the elefant and ferdinand ranged from 30-40mm. Hatches were locked in battle, this hollywood throwing a grenade down the hatch is BS.
 
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