• Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/

How to make teamwork- By Jono

Jump to latest Follow Reply
Sort by date Sort by votes
#21
SiC-Disaster said:
so now more people will go immediately to the commander class cause they will get protection.
so now all else working together in a team and in the capzone, dont get rewarded for getting in and trying to cap.
Click to expand...

I believe i said if you're in the capzone when it is capped by the squad leader you get your ten points because you have, most probably, been helping.
And i don't think everyone will go for the squad leader just for protection. I believe people will be repelled by being afraid of the measures in place to prevent incompetent commanders to take it. Plus a lot of people don't like the Squad leaders loadout. (smoke grenades instead of normal 'nades)
 
Upvote 0
#22
We shouldn't give any incentives for average pubbers to take squad leader. They already take it just for SMG - and refuse to throw smoke, get in cap zones, etc.


Why give them a vastly important role when, chances are, they won't use it effectively. What about lamers *cough*[PIE]*cough* who take squad leader, and then run around doing nothing? Nothing can get capped, the team can't win.


You are relying on the assumption that every pubber plays like a clanner - which they don't. Sure, this would be okay in clan matches, but public play? We already have massive frustration associated with terrible MGs/snipers/combat engineers/squad leaders - why add on to this?






On a side note - Why is it that pubbers cannot wrap their heads around the concept of a capzone? We have regulars in our server that have been playing for months, but still just snipe instead of helping the team! You get ten goddamn points, now move your ass into the ****ing capzone! I wish the Shepards House was unenterable on Kaukasus - it just provides noobs a way to hang back and do nothing.

"OH YAY LIEK I SNIPED A GUY"
"Yeah, and I cleared Tower and I'm capping...."
"LOL NOOB"


Why? Why is it so hard to wrap your minds around this? CAPPING IS EVERYTHING! You can kill all you want, but you still have to cap to win.


/endrant
 
Upvote 0
#23
well dont just make it the commander, we would need some supbordonate officers because every now and then the CO is taking by somone who is rather imcompetent HOWEVER. I REALLY like this idea. i could go and rant why this idea has many good qualities, il just say that as a teamworker this idea really seems great.

possibly it could be configured so its (commander *2) + officers * number of regular soldiers = cap wieght.
 
Upvote 0
#24
Jono said:
I believe i said if you're in the capzone when it is capped by the squad leader you get your ten points because you have, most probably, been helping.
And i don't think everyone will go for the squad leader just for protection. I believe people will be repelled by being afraid of the measures in place to prevent incompetent commanders to take it. Plus a lot of people don't like the Squad leaders loadout. (smoke grenades instead of normal 'nades)
Click to expand...

what i meant is people trying to cap another location then the place the commander is in.
take, for example, stalingrad-kessel again, after taking the warehouses.
so when the comm. is in one location, and other soldiers are in the other, only one can be capped. then the comm. has to move to the other location, and behind him the obj. he just capped gets recapped.
repeat.
then you would need more then 1 commander, or a sergeant, for it to work.
but like i said in another post in this thread, any soldier in any location would basically be capping it in real life, by denying the enemy access to that location.
you dont need to be an officer to keep the enemy out of your territory, or be a commander to take territory from the enemy. any soldier can, by denying the access/killing out the enemy in that location.
allowing only commanders to cap is IMO gamey, and i dont like this idea. even if there are to be multiple commanders, cause it just does not feel right.
 
Upvote 0
#25
Squad Leader and the next man down in improtance have capping powers then.

Could you imagine the teamwork? It would be even better on maps like Kessel where the two men in power would be communicating to get the two capzones...and humans being humans would take a side between the two leaders essentially forming two assault squads or "fireteams".
 
Upvote 0
#27
Jokerman said:
You dont even know how many times your ass has been saved by your teamates.
Teamwork occurs naturaly, any time you have a team.
At least to some extenct.
Click to expand...

Well, I figure I know a fair bit about it, actually... you know, having played since mod beta 1.0 and all. And, well, having played exclusively as a support class (MG) ever since they were implemented (in 1.2 I believe it was?). ;)
 
Upvote 0
#29
Jono said:
Squad Leader and the next man down in improtance have capping powers then.

Could you imagine the teamwork? It would be even better on maps like Kessel where the two men in power would be communicating to get the two capzones...and humans being humans would take a side between the two leaders essentially forming two assault squads or "fireteams".
Click to expand...
The teamwork. ROFL.



You mean the part where the squad leader doesn't do his job, and the whole team loses? Right now, at least even a rifleman can cap something - which means good riflemen can make a difference.


Take that away, you are depending FAR too much on a class that is usually taken just for the SMG.
 
Upvote 0
#30
I think this topic is probably one of the most important in MP game design; and while I like Jono's suggestion in concept -- in execution it would probably fail for the exceptions already given and a few others... In game design it's important to ask: "What are we trying to achieve?", and, "How would this design/idea help or accomplish a particular aim?" as well as examining how it might fail in better understanding both an approach to design and the mechanics of how games are actually played.

As the topic post suggests it would be nice if there was a way to get players to play together more in public games and use more sophisticated, coordinated and realistic squad level tactics.

To date the only game I've found consistent means to organized squad maneuver tactics is also one of the most unrealistic 'realism' games in the wild; Battlefield 2. But just as obviously we can have games with very realistic weapon metrics, or very realistic and highly detailed worlds that have cocomitant very unrealistic game-play due to neglected design.

In the case of Battlefield 2 it's not so much that the game offers a brilliant design per se that enables more realistic and effective squad tactics by intention -- though it's class based design and spawn on squad leader features do help; it's that as a Squad Leader I have some of the tools I need to effectively command and lead an anonymous squad by example and achieve more success in the game by demonstration of my abilities to lead effectively and can actually show players how effective tactics like bounding, and flanking maneuver works.

To Battlefield 2's credit, squads like those I lead almost always prevail, score very high and usually are working together and taking the lead in a decisive role in the outcome of the game. Lest you think I'm giving myself a back pat; no Squad Leader however brilliant can shine without a brilliant squad -- and perhaps I'm just lucky to have had the support in that game of so much absolutely fantastic pick-up talent.

In Battlefield 2 the addition of one man to your squad that understand bounding and cover fire tactics alone allows the two of you to demonstrate some of the most sophisticated and effective maneuver fire tactics to anyone else that joins your squad, that typically even the slowest and most inexperienced players pick up quickly as the typically benefit the most...

The tools I feel Red Orchestra could benefit from and make the most difference is a more effective voice command system, perhaps executed through pie menus as they're much more intuitive, rapid and effective, and a better implementation of real time tactical way pointing. This lasts point requires the addition of rather unrealistic features to a game to achieve more realistic game-play, but it's one that I and I know many others feel is worth the opportunity cost.

It's my experience that game design that attempts to force team team work generally fails, but game design that creates more opportunity for team work, via better communication, coordination and in the case of realism -- rewards players that cooperate as a part of a team over the player acting as individual Rambo gets the job done when there are players that play by example.

A related issue is how players 'score' in games, and when kills are given more points then actually effectively defending an objective via team work and tactics you'll get score whoring death-match game play plain and simple...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
#31
This idea seems good at one point, but backfires at another.

I dont like the fact that the commander has to go head on into the capzone as a priority. The result = he will be the primary target for the enemy and not the objective it self.
In real life hed stay safe and abit outta reach for the enemy while in the same time in comm range with his menn.

I'd rather give a nice combat and cap boost to all close to the commander.
IE Less supressive effects, better stamina, faster cap.
This will make the commander more important, but he does not HAVE to cap, its just alot easier to cap if he is within a certain range (lets say 50m).

I like the idea of adding 2 squad leaders to form 2 fireteams.
if u add Combat boost/stamina boost and faster cap to this, the game will be alot more interssting.
 
Upvote 0
#32
RedStorm said:
Well, I figure I know a fair bit about it, actually... you know, having played since mod beta 1.0 and all. And, well, having played exclusively as a support class (MG) ever since they were implemented (in 1.2 I believe it was?). ;)
Click to expand...

Doesnt matter even if you have played since the 4 vs4 DooM lan games....
Enemy x has you on his sights, you are not even aware of it, friend y stabs him in the back.
There are just things you cant know about in the mayham of a war game.
I wish there was a way to demo record all of the game so you could just roam around and see everything....might teach a lesson in modesty ;)
 
Upvote 0
#33
[=KAS=]doomed said:
The teamwork. ROFL.



You mean the part where the squad leader doesn't do his job, and the whole team loses? Right now, at least even a rifleman can cap something - which means good riflemen can make a difference.


Take that away, you are depending FAR too much on a class that is usually taken just for the SMG.
Click to expand...

For the third and final time there will be measures introduced to stop inexperienced players taking leader. What they may be is for he who takes up this idea to choose.

I dont like the fact that the commander has to go head on into the capzone as a priority. The result = he will be the primary target for the enemy and not the objective it self.
Click to expand...
Is that not how it is in real war? Right back to the 11th century archers would fire mainly on the area where the enemy leader was and in ww2 snipers would sit for days waiting for someone important to come past, regardless of how many normal infantry crossed his sights, before firing one round.
Imagine, IRL, you have 1 round in your gun and infront of you you have 3 enemy soldiers. they cannot see you. one is a rifleman one is an SMG and the other is the all-powerful leader of Germany; who do you fire at? (assuming you're Russian)

exactly

And it won't become more important than the obj. because by focusing on the enemy leader you are essentially protecting the capzone.

Jono
 
Upvote 0
#36
[=KAS=]doomed said:
So now we prevent noobs from ever taking the leader class?


.....

Don't do this. Please.
Click to expand...

What i meant was there would be measures against incompetent leaders. You know, the type that run around doing nothing, afking ect.

It only takes the slightest bit of common sense to be a leader in-game. Get in the capzone and communicate is a far as it needs to go.
 
Upvote 0
#37
Jono said:
Right before i go on to state the idea i've got to say it has just come into my head and i have not actually thought about it and as i'm typing im beginning to see faults with it.

But me being me, i don't really care.

Right, listen up:

The Squad leader is the only one with the ability to cap.

Yep that's it.

Clever huh?

Oh you want more explanation? Ok

This would make it so the team would have to protect the leader and it would reduce if not abolish people running into cap zones spraying and praying killing most of their own team just to get ten points.
It does not end there!
If you're in the capzone when it is capped by the squad leader you get ten points because you have been helping "the war effort".

Discuss.
Click to expand...

Half the time now the guys who take Squad Leader dont know how or dont care to use the role in the way it was designed to help the team. No arty, no smoke...they just want that last SMG available.

Imagine the frustration when over and over people play and the only way to cap is having a Squad Leader there and he's off doing his own thing and doesn't care, or even worse is doing it on purpose.

You said above someplace that you would have "measures" to prevent incompetent Squad Leaders. What would those be? Kick vote? I've never once seen that work. Having admin kick for that? The game shouldn't have to rely on admin to make a judgement call about how effectively a player is using a role.
 
Upvote 0
#38
Jono said:
What i meant was there would be measures against incompetent leaders. You know, the type that run around doing nothing, afking ect.

It only takes the slightest bit of common sense to be a leader in-game. Get in the capzone and communicate is a far as it needs to go.
Click to expand...


Okay but how do you plan to do this? How would you be able to define a person as being a noob or just having an off day? Seems like all you need to be SL is to click the class first. This is also not a good idea because it would only take 1 A$$hat to ruin it for everyone and if he wasnt Tking it would be almost the same thing as Tking if he just ran and hid, so he wouldnt be autokicked. You could try and vote them off but then how do you determine if they are noob or just doing it intentionally. Then there is the part of voting them off which I am sure someone has said already (I skimmed) No one will really vote and I havent seen it be effective in game.


As it stands now I believe the Commander class does cap faster when in the zone. But not many know that. I like Teqs idea of boosting stamina and reducing suppression when commander is nearby. I think this has been discussed in other realism threads this I think would be the best improvement. that does not ruin an entire round for anyone. Additionally in my new map when it is done Commanders will only have pistols hopefully that will allow for better commanders.

@Slyder you beat me to it
 
Upvote 0
#40
Ok clever clogs.

A vote menu , like the map vote menu , has two windows in it. One window displaying the current Squad Leader's in game name and the other the whole list of players on your team.
You can click on the squad leader and vote him "incompetent" and nominate another player from the other window as Squad Leader. Once 55% of the players on the team (or whatever) have voted him "incompetent" he gets kicked and the player with the most votes gets upped to squad leader (assuming he wants to).
At the end of every round players can give the Squad Leader a 1-10 score in capability. An average of all the scores given to that player will be displayed in the "voting menu" next to his/her name therefore giving unexperienced players a good idea of who to nominate.

Now where's my cookie?

p.s keep in mind i just made this up, the possibilities are endless.
 
Upvote 0
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back
Jump to latest Follow Reply
Jump to latest Follow Reply
Community News
Forums
Merch
Menu