all these guys say, "fix my Tiger"

[fiftyone]

I know I've posted on this somewhere on the forum, but I'll throw it out there again:

On the one hand, we've got a 'leave it alone' crowd and on the other a 'but it just isn't historically correct' crowd- and both are perfectly valid viewpoints. HOWEVER...

It's a game. What can be 'fixed' MAY be fixed to bring the 'armor/penetration value du jour' in line with more realism, but keep in mind that it may very well boil down to some modder out there doing it on his own, and it may very well take some time.

In the meantime, forget the Tiger and T-34 and the rest were ever REAL tanks and play them as they are presented in the game; regardless of how you THINK they should behave in the game, you still have to play them as they are.

Yes, I wish this and this and this and this were different, but it's not- and until somebody changes it that's just the way it is. Without trying to sound too 'big brotherly' (if that's even a real word!) you've got three choices: play the game as it is, wait for somebody else to address your concern, or TA-DAAA learn some coding and do it yourself. As I'm no game-design whiz, I'll opt for choices 1 and 2 and keep trying at #3.

Here here !
100%
I agree !
+1

The system is a LOT better than it was, or have you all forgot the good old times when shells would fly, right on through, without doing any damage what so ever, or maybe some of you just never noticed !!!

Thanks for the Tanks !

 

[Tontoman]

I can't believe realistic tank numbers are even being thrown around in discussion of this game . While RO is a fun game, and I love the iron sites and such that make it different, it's not a super realistic/accurate war game it's just less gamey than all the CS, DoD etc. out there. We have hit points on tanks for goodness sakes (the yellow, red and then boom). No crew death from penetrations, spalling, concussion etc. Even some good lol moments like hitting a su76 from the rear (heck, I could see the heads of the crew) only to get a 'damage', took two shots to kill.

But that aside, in game I do find ricochets way overmodelled. Hell I've only been playing from Christmas and I've seen a tiger shell ricochet of a t-60.

But yeah yyou can talk about balance, balance wise it depends on the map. Some maps cause real problems (Arad) if the map gives great camping spots for the Allies (flank protection) and the Axis don't have the speed to get past, it can turn lame quickly. Especially when the clan guys who know the map/spots setup right off the bad for some uber point collection (and they've all chosen to play the biased side). Other maps can be considered Axis bias (muddy tigers) but at least with the Allied tank speed (let alone the clown car with insta eject crew) it gives you something to work with.

BTW, what is with the instant eject of tank and AC crews? Game engine limitation?

T.

 

[xka]

Penetration of the 50mm KwK39 L60 and 76.2mm F-34 is practically the same, but the 50mm L60 has a few more milimeters of penetration. Both can engage each other out to 1000 meters. It was the shorter 50mm L42 that could only engage the T34 at 100 meters. There's a reason why the Germans put the PaK38 inside the PzIII.

Anyway, Panzer III wasnt rival to t-34, and germans knew it .


I read one date about panzer III i think is curious, the motor was very quiet; i read that t-34 could be hear from 300-400 ms, but p-iii only from 100-200.

I can't believe realistic tank numbers are even being thrown around in discussion of this game . While RO is a fun game, and I love the iron sites and such that make it different, it's not a super realistic/accurate war game

The thing i liked when i saw RO first time, wasnt graphics or other tecnical subjects, was the reallity sensation that transmited me. Perphaps some times we lose in dates discussions or thinking about impossibles ideas to carry to a game, but i think all idea that could improve the game in the reallity area, i think is positive.

 

[SUPER_GHOST_2501]

the funny part is the designers missed the whole point of slanted armor. Its not that it bounces every single shell off with impunity its that its slanted so on a level shot it has to pennetrate what 20% more armor that is it folks thats the big deal. it shouldnt be based on pinging shots off over and over and when it comes to a 88mm shell it should pennetrate or at least pennetrate some part.

 

[Solo4114]

So what about the 75mm guns in the Pz IVs? Are they a problem? Or does everyone only seem to care about "ZOMG!!! MY TIGER CAN'T KILL EVERYTHING IT SEES WITH IMPUNITY!!!"

I'm not denying that the armor code and angling specifically are a bit overdone. But it's not unique to the T-34 vs. Tiger matchup -- it's a problem with how angling itself gets calculated, I think. Towards that end, the underlying code for penetration/armor needs to be looked at, not necessarily "Let's make the Tiger's gun do 1.5x the damage it does now" or "let's make the T-34's armor 30% weaker".


As a side note, if you're in a Tiger and are shooting at a T-34 and two or more shots bounce off CHANGE YOUR AIM or MOVE. Same goes for pretty much any armor matchup. If you're not doing damage, either shift your aim or move. Or wait for the enemy to move because chances are he'll be impatient.

 

[Tontoman]

....The thing i liked when i saw RO first time, wasnt graphics or other tecnical subjects, was the reallity sensation that transmited me. Perphaps some times we lose in dates discussions or thinking about impossibles ideas to carry to a game, but i think all idea that could improve the game in the reallity area, i think is positive.

No argument there, it's why I love RO. No more painted crosshairs, bunny hopping etc. The concussion effects are good too and inf damage model is good (one hit does the job ). Hugging cover has never been so fun.

It's just on the tank part, either due to game engine limits or just playability, it's WAY less accurate so I just thought going into minute penetration detail is funny (but not pointless) considering we're still working with basically tank hitpoints. Now would I like a damage model like Combat Mission, you betcha. I'd even settle for concussion effects on penetrations (I'm assuming the tank hitpoints stuff has to be kept) so you can't do the instant bail thing and rob the guy of his kill

T.

 

[[FS] Celtic WereWolf]

Same on Arad the other day. I parked in South field hull down and just picked off tanks and buggys for the entire round.

As long as you keep the corner of the Tiger pointed at the enemy it's tough as nails. It doesn't have the shot traps around the turret base that the IS2 does. That's my secret btw... I find shooting up under the IS2's gun where the turret meets the hull to be very effective. Cuts down on the ricochet's alot... Still takes two or three hits to actually kill the blighters most of the time... but sitting back five or six hundred meters with the corner of the Tiger pointed at him even the 120mm is bouncing off 75% of the time.

Dude even when you angle your Tiger a 11 or 1 oclock to the enemy on Arad, even if they are sitting in their North Field Spawn location behind the boulder outcropping, and you are on the spawn hill, they are still able to take a tiger out with (majority of the time) one shot, while they angle, and the Tiger cant even make one damage hit, and that is highly unrealistc, 2000m penetration even on the IS2, hmmmm. I played Koenigsplatz today and didnt even have my Tiger angled, and i wasnt even damaged by an IS2 or T-34/85, and i destroyed them 3 times at point blank range, and they did me no damage (And they hit me everytime). Arad, is highly unfair to the germans period

 

[Gen.Biggunz]

people need to learn about these tanks before they make statements.. I like to know where the heck theygot the info on the panther having more firepower than the tiger? the tiger was the top german tank and the top tank in the war at the time.. don't think just because the 88 isn't as big of a gun as the 122mm is2 that it isn't comparible because it is.. the 88 was a high velocity shell that was second to none.. the first version of the tiger 1 was 56 calibres long and could take out any allied tank at that time way out of their effective range. When they came out with the new 88version 71 calibres long (king tiger,elefant,) it was the most powerful gun in the war.. it could penetrate an IS2 at over 1200 yards.. the tiger and KingTiger were the top tanks.. Then there there's the other tanks germany had that had very limited production that few people heard of but were terror amongst the allies like the JagdTiger. The most devastating tank in the war.. Its gun was recorded to take out tanks at 3500+ meters and it's armor was 250mm so it was invincible. It's a good thing these monsters aren't in the game or else russia wouldnt stand a chance in a head to head battle..

 

[Tontoman]

Actually the Panther did have the better gun for all but the long ranges (2km+)
While smaller, it has better velocity until the long 88 came out.

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz4.htm#panther
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/tiger.htm
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz5.htm

with velocities
http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_vehicles_adv.php?op=getvehicles&vehiclesX=71

http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_vehicles_adv.php?op=getvehicles&vehiclesX=73

http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_vehicles_adv.php?op=getvehicles&vehiclesX=72

BTW just for fun, a good site for some vids of restored and running tanks. Missing the tiger but, has an awsome one of the KingTiger. If I was a soldier, I'd surrender as soon as I saw that mother coming down the road
http://maquettegarden.free.fr/videos.htm

T.

 

[Kipper]

The Tiger should be angled at 10:30 to deflect most, if not all rounds.

How come no one ever complains about the KV-1S and it's cardboard armor?

 

[Solo4114]

Because there are no (or at least very very few) Russian fanboys. And because the problems with the entire armor system are most evident in the T-34 vs. Tiger matchup because of people's perceptions of the Tiger as the invincible ubertank that can only be destroyed by an act of God.

 

[Crim]

Whereas, in game, the opposite is true!

 

[Coey]

After a good many hours of playing Orel and BDJ I can say with certainty that whenver I see a T-34 I pray that it faces me directly, i:e it's showing me it's "strongest" armour so I can actually have a chance of taking it out. If it goes side on it's curtains for me. If I move the t-34 moves to angle itself towards my new position, or, in the vast majority of cases it shoots me and kills me. Now take the t-34, give it a bigger gun, call it a IS-2, then don't give the Germans an effective counter apart from the Panther, which is really only on par with the t-34/85(if the panther's lucky), and then you have a real problem. King Tigers would be a quick fix to the problem, but as much as I may long for the day that I can jump in one, the tank armour system really needs to be fixed.

The problem is not with the Tiger, stay far away and it's excellent, it's the t-34 armour and the godawful Pz4 (both versions) that needs fixing.

 

[Quietus]

How come no one ever complains about the KV-1S and it's cardboard armor?

Because KV-1S stands for Kardboard Vehicle 1 Suckers!
lol, I have complained about it's cardboard armor before but hey......wadaa ya gonna do? Maybe TW agrees and will make it a little tougher (or better yet put in the good KV version instead of the "S" version) in a future patch.

 

[Solo4114]

I repeat:

The issue is not with specific tanks themselves. It is with the armor/penetration code in general. Angling plays way more of a part in this game than it should, and that goes for ALL tanks, not just the T-34.

In addition, with shots to the tracks being almost impossible to make and wheels being treated as armor (or so it seems) the downside of angling is nil and the upside of facing your armor towards an enemy is overshadowed by the greater advantage angling offers.

But like I said, it ain't just a problem with the T-34 having too much armor, or the KV-1S having too little, or the Tiger having its gun nerfed. It's a problem with all tanks.


As for being in the Tiger and getting killed on BDJ by T-34s, without more information there's no way to evaluate the situation. What range were you engaging the enemy at? I find it a little hard to believe that people are using the Tiger at, say, 800m and failing to shrug off shots from Russian 76.1mm armed AFVs. On the other hand, when those Tigers are brought in to, say, the 500m range, I can see where they'd get themselves flanked and killed.

I know when I'm in a T-34 and I know there's a Tiger ahead, I'll go WAY off on the flank and then get within 500m to shoot it. If you're coming up against tankers like me and aren't protecting your flanks, well, there's your problem.

Likewise, if I'm in a Tiger, I use it as a long-range standoff weapon to cover the advance of my team's Pz IIIs and IVs. Basically, the Tiger becomes the "sniper rifle" of the map, rather than the "STG44" of the map. The Tiger isn't supposed to be used in close and it loses its major advantages when you bring it up too close or don't guard its flanks.

It might also be that the T-34s are switching to HE, which I will also frequently do if I'm up against a Tiger and I know he either has lousy aim and can't hit me, or my armor's deflecting shots.

I'll also say this. Many times, a subtle change to the angle or elevation of your shot may end up damaging the enemy target. Obviously, if you fire a shot and it ricochets, don't fire again at the exact same spot. Better to adjust 2mm (on your screen) to the side or up or down, and take a second shot. If that fails, switch to HE, fire a shot IN FRONT of the tank, and use the brief smokescreen to blind him while you pull your tank back or into cover, or angle it to defeat his shots.

As a side note, folks should take the time to download Mormegil's Tank Range map. Look for the link on the boards here. (Run a search -- I don't remember the link itself.) It's invaluable in teaching you how to correctly estimate range. Many times people say "I was at, like, 800m!!" when it's really closer to 600, or they brag about a "1000m" kill when the visual range of the map is only 750m.

 

[Yoshiro]

Moving this into suggestions now.

 

[K Rohm]

dude if you are saying that I and many other people have not shot a t-34 up to 3 times in the back and it just keeps rolling on you are on crack. That may not be the case all the time but at least 30-50% of the time I have to take 2 shots. Et al.

I ran a solo Orel map for testing and it took 3 shots to kill a PzIII: all shots were AP ammo, all of them direct side shots between the tracks, all shots were at about 20 meters range, and all of them from the same Tiger. I aimed at the exact spot every time, so I know it wasn't any 'fresh armor section' business.

Tell me something's not going on here.

OTOH, I ran a solo Arad map that I had modified to accept a standard PzIII; I took it into North Village and camped for testing against T-34/85's. With APCR I got almost 100% one-shot kills on '85's to the frontal hull armor (and no I didn't aim for the driver's hatch), but with regular AP- MUCH to my surprise- the kill rate wasn't that much different. I ran it a few times and strangely the difference between APCR and AP on this map was not that much different, and this applied to shots at every concievable angle. Even IS-2's didn't fare much better, except on full frontal shots.

With a Tiger on the same map, however, shots continually bounced off of T-34's regardless of the angle, sometimes requiring up to 4 shots to kill the darned thing.

I repeat: Tell me something's not going on here.

When I see PzIII's get a better kill rate than Tigers- and resist point blank shots from a Tiger- I get a little suspicious. I know the devil is in the details of the armo/ammo/penetration values, but come on!

(And yes, I know this borders on a rant, and that I should take my own advice and leave it be or fix it myself- but come on! )

 

[Recce]

people need to learn about these tanks before they make statements.. I like to know where the heck theygot the info on the panther having more firepower than the tiger? the tiger was the top german tank and the top tank in the war at the time.. don't think just because the 88 isn't as big of a gun as the 122mm is2 that it isn't comparible because it is.. the 88 was a high velocity shell that was second to none.. the first version of the tiger 1 was 56 calibres long and could take out any allied tank at that time way out of their effective range. When they came out with the new 88version 71 calibres long (king tiger,elefant,) it was the most powerful gun in the war

I'm sure that Tontoman's links to penertration data will show that the 75mm KwK42 L/70 outperforms the 88mm KwK36 L/56 until about 2000m. The reason being that while the 75mm has a significantly greater muzzle velocity, the effects of drag are greater due to the smaller / lighter projectile. Beyond that range, the KwK 36 will out perform the KwK42.
The 88mm KwK43 L/41 came out of the development of the Gerat42. As it's barrel length was similar to that of the the KwK42, it fired a shell at a similar velocity, but with all the advantages the larger / heavier projectile gave the guns performance. The KwK43 required a significantly larger propellant charge than the KwK36, as you can see below.

I do wonder if the reputation of the "Tiger" in combat could be due to troops reporting all large, heavy German tanks as "Tigers". So that the Allied "Tiger stories" are clumping together Tiger, Panther and K

 

[Reddog]

After a good many hours of playing Orel and BDJ I can say with certainty that whenver I see a T-34 I pray that it faces me directly, i:e it's showing me it's "strongest" armour so I can actually have a chance of taking it out. If it goes side on it's curtains for me. If I move the t-34 moves to angle itself towards my new position, or, in the vast majority of cases it shoots me and kills me. Now take the t-34, give it a bigger gun, call it a IS-2, then don't give the Germans an effective counter apart from the Panther, which is really only on par with the t-34/85(if the panther's lucky), and then you have a real problem. King Tigers would be a quick fix to the problem, but as much as I may long for the day that I can jump in one, the tank armour system really needs to be fixed.

The problem is not with the Tiger, stay far away and it's excellent, it's the t-34 armour and the godawful Pz4 (both versions) that needs fixing.

Explain to me how the Panther is only on par with the T34/85? Last time I checked the T34/85 could not penetrate the Panther frontally at all and is eaten alive by it at any kind of range. You German lovers never quit with the exaggeration and half truths do you? Just like you all cry that Arad is so unfair for the Germans yet I see it won frequently by both sides.

The Panther is more than a match for the T34/85, and in the right hands is nigh indestructible and can chew the 'mighty' IS-2 to pieces.

 

[Sichartshofen]

Anyone care to hazzard a guess?

Looks like a Panther to me. Wide tracks and the spaced armor on the side.