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Red Orchestra and the Ethics of World War II Game

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#61
Eater, where've you been? There's been games based on WW2 ever since uhh... games have been around. There's no real reason to ponder the ethics of it when it's been done hundreds of times over already. Yeah, war is hell, but without war there wouldn't be a need for progress. As harsh as that sounds, without conflict, mankind would probably sit around and do nothing because there's no need to be better than, have more than, or be more powerful than your fellow man. War is pretty much the absolute top of that struggle.
 
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#63
Reise said:
Eater, where've you been? There's been games based on WW2 ever since uhh... games have been around. There's no real reason to ponder the ethics of it when it's been done hundreds of times over already. Yeah, war is hell, but without war there wouldn't be a need for progress. As harsh as that sounds, without conflict, mankind would probably sit around and do nothing because there's no need to be better than, have more than, or be more powerful than your fellow man. War is pretty much the absolute top of that struggle.
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That is not true.
Did you ever heard the term capitalism?
Also informing you about the ideas behind consumism would not be so bad.
I would guess you would think different of progress then.

If you think about it makind "sit around and [did] nothing [no progress]" for a long time. For most time of mankind. The progress in the e.g. medieval age was not as fast as it is now, not because they were stupid but they had a total different understanding how thinks should work (more steady).

Just because something has been done a lot does not justifies it.
 
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#64
K Rohm said:
Dresden, on the other hand, was completely unnecessary- it had no military installations, Germany was already on its heels in the field, and the city itself was completely unprotected; in essence, it was an 'open city'. The Allies, for whatever reason, chose Dresden as nothing more than a testing ground for incindiary weapons, to see what the effect of massed fire-bombing would be on regular city structures. The planners knew it would mean mass casualties of civilians- and only civilians- in a raid that could have easily been made on a 'legitimate' military target. And the rest is little-known history.
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Well dresden was not considered unecessary at this time.
Not to enter in polemics, the official version is that in the soviet-eastern airforce cooperation. Soviet asked to bomb the city stating that the reinforcement was transiting trough the dresden to berlin axe (dresden was still a rail node). Recon statement has proved the rail station were very active and so the decision was taken.
(official fact -> last EU report about the victims : around 25 000 victims.)
Other supposition have never been really trusedt, because most have been perverted by nazi-return propaganda or soviet cold war propaganda.
The historical materials are there so there is no need to speculate on it as the atomic bomb could be (some files are still classified, if i remember, so there is some speculation about how the decision was taken...)
 
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#66
Seth_Soldier said:
Recon statement has proved the rail station were very active and so the decision was taken.
(official fact -> last EU report about the victims : around 25 000 victims.)
Other supposition have never been really trusedt, because most have been perverted by nazi-return propaganda or soviet cold war propaganda.
The historical materials are there so there is no need to speculate on it as the atomic bomb could be (some files are still classified, if i remember, so there is some speculation about how the decision was taken...)
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Why was the whole city decimated instead of just the rail center??? Supposedly the city has something like 1million+ people in it at the time and "only" 25,000 died? I tend to believe it was more dead than that. See, this is what I hate, people/leaders/countries unwilling to admit horrible mistakes and actions just to preserve....whatever it is they're trying to preserve (childish delusions of supreme rightness & justness?). I'm not a total idiot like many people who just blindley accept whatever the gov says happened. A rail station, I repeat A RAIL STATION!! So explain how the rest of the city was reduced to rubble if they were only targeting the rail station. Perpetual denial is a trait shared by selfish children or stupid adults. Oh No! You mean our Government isn't perfect?? The sky certainly is falling! I can't believe their decisions weren't 100% rightous & error free just how God intended.
 
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#67
Eater1 said:
For instance, one would never make a game about having to escape a concentration camp (or a gulag... or, for that matter, a game where one has to guard said concentration camp and prevent inmates from escaping).
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Actually, Escape from Woomera does just that.

In my mind, it depends on how the subject matter is treated. EFW there certainly treats it with respect, as does RO.

For my part though, I couldn't care less if RO is trying to recreate something - it's the fact that it's so intensely tactical that appeals to me.
 
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#68
Quietus said:
Why was the whole city decimated instead of just the rail center??? Supposedly the city has something like 1million+ people in it at the time and "only" 25,000 died? I tend to believe it was more dead than that. See, this is what I hate, people/leaders/countries unwilling to admit horrible mistakes and actions just to preserve....whatever it is they're trying to preserve (childish delusions of supreme rightness & justness?). I'm not a total idiot like many people who just blindley accept whatever the gov says happened. A rail station, I repeat A RAIL STATION!! So explain how the rest of the city was reduced to rubble if they were only targeting the rail station. Perpetual denial is a trait shared by selfish children or stupid adults. Oh No! You mean our Government isn't perfect?? The sky certainly is falling! I can't believe their decisions weren't 100% rightous & error free just how God intended.
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They didn't bomb just the rail station because we didn't have laser guided smart bombs back then. :rolleyes:

Tell me why should a bomber crew undertake a suicide mission just to save some "Nazi" civilians who started and backed the war from the start? GTFO.

I have heard that the Germans could use Dresden as a hub to move troops and supplies between fronts, and that the Soviets did request the bombing of the city to aid them in their ground war.

Perpetual denial is what you seem to have, all the people who kept the German war machine moving were aiding the "Nazi" Armed forces commit the Satanic acts they committed all over Europe, and the plains of Asia. Therefore the citizenry of the 3rd Reich put themselves in the cross-hairs. Not the teenagers scooped up from the backwoods of the USA called upon to defend our friends in Europe and ultimately the US Homeland itself.
 
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#70
BuddyLee said:
They didn't bomb just the rail station because we didn't have laser guided smart bombs back then. :rolleyes:
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No but they had bombsights.

BuddyLee said:
Tell me why should a bomber crew undertake a suicide mission just to save some "Nazi" civilians who started and backed the war from the start? GTFO.
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So all German civilians were Nazis? Ok.
 
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#71
Again, I move to close this thread. It's already past the point of 'who was right, who was wrong' and all that can result is bad blood between potentially good teammates. RO is a game, people; I know everybody has their point of view but there are PLENTY of other forums (and even General threads in this forum) for this sort of subject.
 
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#73
K Rohm said:
Again, I move to close this thread. It's already past the point of 'who was right, who was wrong' and all that can result is bad blood between potentially good teammates. RO is a game, people; I know everybody has their point of view but there are PLENTY of other forums (and even General threads in this forum) for this sort of subject.
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Don't worry it's already a dead thread walking. Arguments/disagreements=locked thread. Starting a separate thread on Dresden would be useless and have the exact same result as this.
 
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#74
Quietus said:
No but they had bombsights.

So all German civilians were Nazis? Ok.
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In my eyes yes, since the German people were the only people on Earth who could have stopped Hitler from starting WW2. But they chose to "worship" him instead.

The US Civil War was fought to Abolish the Evil system of slavery. I know that technically the war was fought to preserve the Union, but if it were not for the Abolitionists, I don't think the war would have been fought with the same enthusiasm, or have come to the same end. My ancestors from Maine were diehard Abolitionists, because they were Christian, and slavery went against all the Morals that the Bible taught them, and their core beliefs.

The Germans could have fought amongst themselves to do the right thing, (as millions of US citizens did in the Civil War) but their anti-semitism, like US Racism kept them from doing the right thing.

General Sherman could be considered a "War Criminal" for his wanton destruction of every Rebel City he came across, but he still did the right thing in my eyes.
 
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#75
BuddyLee said:
In my eyes yes, since the German people were the only people on Earth who could have stopped Hitler from starting WW2. But they chose to "worship" him instead.
[...]
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There were a lot movements to stop Hitler even before the War began (see OKH e.g.). Many coups were planned but only very few were tried.
One of the many problems for the German resistance was that they were not supported by the Allies, even though some of the resistance movements contaced them. Additionally the appeasement policies before the war were ideal for Hitler (e.g. the attempt to arrest him in 1938 that was aborted after the UK gave in on the question of the Czech Republic), while they were bad for his opponents.
Further on Hitler had a lot of luck, if you consider the amount of assassination attempts.

And btw. more people than only jews were in KZs, at the beginning most people were German.
Political opponents were transfered to KZs very fast (some German and Austrian politicans after WW2 were imprisoned in KZs), gypsies ...

Please leave your simple black and white ways of thinking.
 
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#77
So BuddyLee are the German people to be vilified and demonized for all of eternity because of the second world war? For goodness sakes Germany is so guilt ridden with this cult of popular historical opinion they are trying to get people who say certain unpopular things put in prison for several years. How can you say the deaths of hundreds of thousands of German civilians (in all German cities bombed by the allies) are legitimate war deaths? Is it really that politically correct to blame all of the horrors of the war on the Germans and say they deserved mass death and abuse more than every other nation? Why does Stalin always get used in nearly glorified or light hearted humorous ways and every German citizen was goose stepping and working as camp guards? Why is Germany labelled evil above all others? Why do we ignore and forget the Katyn and Cherven massacres, the Red Army purges, the gulags, the civilian purges in Russia, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Tokyo firebombing, Dresden and Hamburg, Soviet post-war POW camps, Russian raping and pillaging in 1945, the deliberate starving of German POWs in American camps, etc. Yes, Germany has black marks from the war, but stop portraying everyone else as saints when the historical facts tell a different story from a lot of the popular historical opinion.
 
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#78
what buddylee says is completely insane and dangerous, i would like to see him in the 40's in germany, trying to fight hitler.
it is because of people with the same black and white thinking as buddy, that people like hitler got elected

we are the good, they are bad we must find a "sollution" for them.

immagine in usa, that when you would say openly you don't approve Bush, one hour later the FBI would pick you and your family up and have you "disappear"
or that all the democrats would end up in prison, tortured and killed.
after seeing all that, would you still go out and say "i dont like this government"??

just think about it, before condemning others
 
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