tank damage getting out of hand

[SUPER_GHOST_2501]

I know there are a lot of discussions about how messed up the tank hit system is or that it at least needs some balancing but today I saw a t-34 take shots from a tiger in the front and a mk4 and a p3 from directly to the side.

you can quess how it went of course we got 3 good shots in direct hits and it shot once and killed the mk4 then the tiger shot again and I did in a p3 and it still stood there then in one shot it killed the tiger and then shot me. I got 3 direct hits in on the side and the tiger got 2 direct hits on the front the mk4 got one good hit on the side.

Now It would not suprise me at all if that tank took even more hits and killed a few more german tanks. Its just way too out of hand when a tiger pops like a balloon and a t34 can take up to 6 or 7 direct hits to to the side and a tiger dies from one frontal shot. 99% of the time a ruskie tank dosent die in one direct frontal hit.

I am not counting any reflected shots all the shots hit and show that they hit.

I can even shoot a t34 in the rear 3 or 4 times sometimes and it just leaves me wondering....

 

[RedOctober]

This is the reason for that is because of balance because of it things have been nerfed and simplified so that people will not get frustrated and leave see below:

PenetrationTable(0)=14
PenetrationTable(1)=13
PenetrationTable(2)=13
PenetrationTable(3)=13
PenetrationTable(4)=13
PenetrationTable(5)=12
PenetrationTable(6)=12
PenetrationTable(7)=11
PenetrationTable(8)=11
PenetrationTable(9)=10
PenetrationTable(10)=10

According to this data the T-34-76 is penetrating 140mm of armor at 0 meters and at 1000 meters 100mm.

The T-34 76 was not capable of penetrating even 100mm of armor at point blank range infact it was recorded by tests that the T-34 could not penetrate the Tiger I's 80mm of armor at 200 meters.
Heres are the real numbers: For the 76.2mm F-34 at 90 degrees

100m: 80mm
500m: 70mm
1000m: 63mm

All the 76.2 mm guns in game should have similar penetration to these numbers

FrontArmorFactor=11
RearArmorFactor=5
SideArmorFactor=6
HealthMax=800.000000
Health=800

110mm of frontal armor ? The T-3485 as well as the 76 should have 45mm of sloping armor which only goes so far it does not make a medium tank into a heavy tank any round that is bigger than 45mm should have a good chance of penetrating the T-34's(all variants) hull armor (also dependent on gun power).

If the diameter of the armor piercing round overmatches the thickness of the armor plate, the protection given by the inclination of the armor plate diminishes proportionally to the increase in the overmatch of the armor piercing round diameter or, in other words, to the increase in this T/d overmatch. So, when a Tiger hit a T-34, the 88 mm diameter of the Tiger's round overmatched the 45 mm glacis plate of the T-34 by so much that it made no difference that the Russian tank's glacis was inclined at an angle of 60 degrees from vertical.

As for its health it has more health than the Panzer IV by at least 200 points thus sevearly outclassing tanks that were known for killing T-34s such as the Panzer III ausf L (by 300 points) the Panzer IV F2 (by 200) and the Panzer IV H by 150 points (Realistically the PzIV H was considered the T-34-85's equal or superior depending on range of engagement)
The Panther G is equal to the T-34 in health. Realisitically all the T-34 should be more on the level of the Panzer III and IV on the health system seeing as it was a a normal medium tank that had no real modifications done to its hull armor through out the war or superstructure (few little mods to super nothing major) therefore it could not compete with the newer Panther design.
Which was why Russia used many T-34s (waves of em) or other more potent assualt guns to deal with Panthers.

FrontArmorFactor=3
SideArmorFactor=3
RearArmorFactor=2
Health=500
HealthMax=500

Should be :

FrontArmorFactor=50+20 (50 minimal frontal )
RearArmorFactor=50mm

Health should be close to Panzer IV tank since they were both medium tanks not 100 health points less. The Panzer III's chasis was not a death trap it was used all through the war in various roles.

Before people get angry consider that the Ro-Devs could have purposelly coded this in for balance until new features or content could be added if Im not mistaken Im sure I heard them say or rather type that they were going to fix issues with tanking. If not then there are always mods my friends.

-Infact I was working on a small one- but alas I need new tanks (modlers) to realistically re-balance gameplay.

 

[Elysium]

Yeah well the Tiger is a death-trap like the KV 1. Piss poor armour and a feared main gun that does a better job of straching the paint work than taking out ruskie T-34s.

And before someone tells me, yes I know about angling your tank. But it still doesn't help in most situations. Anyway be thankful the tank system isn't lame like BF2. MI Abrams shooting a T-90 point blank range with a depleted uranian round fired from an superior German designed Rheinmetal 122mm smoothbore will take out about two health bars? Yeah right.

 

[SUPER_GHOST_2501]

well I think someone just got a little commie happy over on the design team why else is it that the game is always slanted towards russians when its uneven. Everyone knows that the german equipment for the most part was much better yet is seems to be worse in the game.

durring the battle of kursk 12 tiger tanks took out like 200 or more t-34s and this was while they were being ganged up on and some of the tiger tanks were static (fixed position) yet in this game you can litterally have 3 tigers shooting at one t-34 and even one from the side and 2 ffrom the front the shells clearly arent bouncing and the t-34 believe it or not will kill each tiger tank in one shot and kill all 3 tanks!! Do you think I am exaggerating?? I am not. its getting old real fast!

I remember the mod back in the day and the tank system must have been completley different you could shoot a t-34 in one shot all the time it depended on where you hit it not some kind of weird hit point system like it has now who the hell even knows how they calculate the tanks system now but its much different.

 

[RedOctober]

I share your frustration I hate being 1 shot killed by a Kv-1s from the front or by a T-3485 at ranges exceeding 500 meters or when Im angled. An angled Tiger I can deflect Is-2 rounds realistically at some ranges but not an 85mm or 76mm round in the game?

Realistically:

Well the 76.2 mm as I have said should really not pose a problem for the Tiger I at all (although it could damage wheels tracks and suspenion). If it shoots at your rear or sides the it is doubtful if penetration would occur because of the high quality armor and its thickness as was observed by tests done by both sides.
Penetration was only achived on the side of the Tiger with Apcr ammuntion.

The T-34 85mm variant realistically had to get as closer than 500m to pentrate the front of the Tiger I at 90 degrees (not angled). making it vulnerable since the T-34 could not take the 88mm round it would be suicidal to approch a Tiger I at that range from the front. The T-34s usually tried to attack the sides of the Tiger if an attack was to be made by t-34's rather than by a more potent tank in the Soviet arsenal such as the Su-85.

The 8.8cm Kwk 36 L56 can kill T-34's (all) and most other tanks at almost any range easily killing them in 1 shot the 8.8cm will not deflect off of most tanks especially not the T-34 as has been stated by my quote

The Problem:
In maps before the IS-2 how will the Soviet side fight back against the Panther G and the Tiger I?
If more tanks were added like the Su-85 then the Tiger I could be realistically implemented as the Heavy tank it was since the Su-85 could engage it at 1000 meters and can "counter" it on maps before the JS-2.

Perhaps the devs should consider commenting on this subject? That is if they havent already.

 

[Zbojnik]

Could the SU-85 really engage Tigers at that distance? I know the SU-152 would be a good addition since it was capable at knocking out Tiger, Panther and Elefant tanks.

 

[K Rohm]

On The Other Hand...

Perhaps a way of looking at this is not to think of each individual T-34 (either model) as ONE tank, but maybe TWO or THREE tanks. I know it's really reaching for Truth, but if we look at it this way it makes at least SOME sense with regard to the difficulty of killing that one tank...because it's really three tanks! (stay with me here...)

We know from the jump the Soviets had literally millions of men to throw at the Germans, likewise they produced huge numbers of technically modest- but combat effective- tanks to go up against more advanced German designs. If we were to represent this realistically, at any given time in RO we might very well see twice as many T-34 series tanks on the field than German tanks- given that the maximum that can be fielded is 16 per side, that's a LOT of Soviet tanks to deal with. But, as RO isn't designed to handle that many vehicles at one time, we justify battlfield numbers with varying levels of 'reinforcements' to even out the game play.

While this brings everything under the umbrella of the RO system, it doesn't really address the 'wave of tanks' attacks that the Soviets launched; instead of facing a mass of Soviet armor (albeit realistically individually weaker vehicles than at present) the German player knows that at any given time he will NEVER see more than 16 vehicles fielded against him (the same goes for Soviet players).

Presently, as we know, each individual Soviet vehicle is somewhat 'stronger' than it should be, but perhaps this was a way for the game developers to model the larger numbers of Soviet tanks while maintaining usable numbers in-game.

So, if we take a 'leap of faith' and consider each T-34/76 or /85 to really be THREE tanks, it makes sense for that one tank on the field to be harder to kill than would be historically correct.

This doesn't address the actual armor penetration and such- this I agree needs some work- but only the 'kill' aspect of the issue.

I know all of this may very well bring howls of laughter at such a preposterous idea. HOWEVER, be that as it may, this take on the 'conspiracy theory' goes a long way to justify Why Things Are The Way They Are at present.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

Could the SU-85 really engage Tigers at that distance? I know the SU-152 would be a good addition since it was capable at knocking out Tiger, Panther and Elefant tanks.

the isu152 could never have penetrated the 200 ( or was it 250)mm of armor on the front of the ferdinand or eliphant tank. http://www.tarrif.net/ also its an assault gun, not an anti tank gun, so adding a su - 85 or su - 100 would be a much better choice.

also back to you romh, .. your wacked!! jk buddy, thats actually a pretty good idea though. however a much simpeler way to acheive that would be to limit the number of panzerbeshtungs the germans get to say 8 - 10, and give the russians the remaining 24 - 22, also slap on an extra pile of tanks. also to mention that many t 34 - 76's were not modified to 85's so there should be t34 76's on all maps, it should probably be at a 3/4 ths rating, so there would be perhaps 5 su -76's, 5 76's, 2 kvi's, 10 t34 85's and mabie 1 is2 but probably not an is2... (as it was a rarely seen tank.)

 

[SheepDip]

The SU-152 had an extremely powerful cannon, it was very effective against heavy tanks and didn't need to penetrate to secure a kill.

To be honest I'm hoping the lack of any update/heads up recently means that there's something in the works. Especially given the level of threads concerning penetration in this forum

 

[Colt .45 killer]

neverthe less the su 152 was an assualt gun meant for use against enemy positions .. not their tanks, the russian spgs that should be added are the su 100 and the su 85, thosethings had much better armor penetration capabilities.

 

[SheepDip]

Whilst it was used against fortifications and infantry positions (as that is what it was designed for) it was deployed plenty of times in numerous battles in an anti tank role.
The SU-152 of major Sankovsky destroyed 10 German tanks in a days fighting at Kursk.

I myself would much rather see an SU-100 or an SU-122 than either an SU-85 or 152

 

[Nahkaministeri]

Wonder why people always only think about penetration when talking about destroying a tank..?
Sure, the ISU/SU-152 couldn't penetrate very much armor, but it was nevertheless one of the best weapons soviets got against german heavy armor..why? Because the size of the ammo was so huge.
Even if it didnt penetrate, but made just a big dent to the armor, the shock caused mechanichal failures and caused cracks at the armor plate joints.

 

[dogbadger]

Wonder why people always only think about penetration when talking about destroying a tank..?

Yes, I may be wrong- but I heard the shock of a heavy impact on tank armour could cause pieces of metal to come away from the inside and frequently kill or injure crew. The armour was technically not penetrated.
The crew could die but the tank stay operational - whether players would accept this is another thing.

 

[sumway]

Just a side note, the ISU-152 and the ISU-122 where the equivalent SU version mounted upon the IS chassis (although there were many minor modifications), instead of the KV chassis used on the SU-152 and the T-34 chassis used on the SU-85/122.

The SU-122 used the (relatively) short-barrelled M30 howitzer and was ideal for infantry support, but was replaced in production by the SU-85, which had better anti-armour capabilities.

However, when the new T34-85 reached production, there was no point in continuing production of the SU-85, which was halted in late 1944.

The SU-100 succeeded the SU-85 in production, but only saw most of its service in 1945. They are noted for their contribution in Operation Fr