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WARPAC vs. NATO-thread

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Not entirely true. We got tons of soviet tanks after the reunion here in Germany and after testing them, we know what they could do or not. To put it simply, they were no match.

I expect to hear something like the NVA tanks were like Iraqi tanks, but seriously, they were not. They were "proper".

Not to mention that NATO had little trouble procuring WARPAC gear of every kind. Want a MiG? Can't manage to buy it outright? Just wait for a pilot to defect with one.

Conscript force vs professional force is a dead-end argument. We'd have opened up the conscription. Just because our standing force is professional instead of conscripted doesn't mean we can't conscript.

The Second Amendment of the US Constitution mentions the "militia." Every adult in the US basically makes up this militia, in the late 18'th century, "militia" meant "pool from which to pull conscripts when needed".
 
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Well, there is a wellknown report by Bundeswehr where they are testing T-72 with Kontakt-5 (used by NVA). K-5 shattered 120 mm penetrators, DM-53s and american M829. Upgraded T-55s with BDD armor, Sheksna missiles, improved east german fire-control and ERA were widely used as well.
Well, M829 is the first generation, there are now at least four.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M829
 
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Not to mention that NATO had little trouble procuring WARPAC gear of every kind. Want a MiG? Can't manage to buy it outright? Just wait for a pilot to defect with one.

Nonsense. Many times NATO got first glimpse of new WARPAC equipment in Great October Revolution parade. NATO intel severly underestimated NVA equipment level. They never detected Oka, Totschka, S-300, Igla and LGBs for Su-22.
Also I think bribing OPFOR to defect can be count as buying. :D
 
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Russia already won a war by numerical superiority. They would've gotten this one as well.

Hard to say, and I really think it depends on the time period involved.
As everyone probably already knows, NATO doctrine called for first use of tactical nukes in the event of a Soviet invasion that started looking successful. It's impossible to say where that might have led, but that threat may have been what ultimately prevented WW III.
 
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Hard to say, and I really think it depends on the time period involved.
As everyone probably already knows, NATO doctrine called for first use of tactical nukes in the event of a Soviet invasion that started looking successful. It's impossible to say where that might have led, but that threat may have been what ultimately prevented WW III.

Very good point Donster. Who would have won a conventional war is interesting to speculate about but in the end it's moot, because any major engagement would have turned nuclear as soon as one side began to get the upper hand. Starting a conventional war in Europe in those days would have been like punching a cop in the face and trusting his sense of fair play not to bring his nightstick or gun into the fight.
 
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Found an interesting video: M1 Abrams vs. T-90

Although, it's in Russian. Maybe a Russian speaker can translate some of the dialogue?

Here's the translation I found from Tanknet:

The Abrams is the arguably most well-known Western tank. War and war-equipment-themed magazins write about it, it is shown on TV news shows. It is the TV star of the tank world.

The most up-to-date Russian tank is the T-90. It hardly gets any attention, especually in the West. NATO experts branded it as "obsolete". Is it really so?

The Russian T-90 and the American "Abrams". A layman might think they are machines of different class. T-90 is significantly lighter than the American machine, 47 metric tons versus 64. It is also way more compact, and doesn't have the impressive look of the Abrams. On the world's weapons market, however, these machines are in direct competition. This is because of their similar battle capability.
Today, you cannot compare protection offered based on armor thickness only. You must know what it is composed of. Abrams is known for depleted uranium in its armor composition; the T-90 for its integrated reactive armor.
According to American sources, front armor of the Abrams has proven its protective capability during the Iraq wars of 1991 and 2003. It withstanded hits of Russian armor-piercing tank rounds of the 125 mm calibre. It is, however, usually omitted that we're talking of rounds withdrawn from (Russian) service in 1973. No truly modern anti-tank round was fired then.
During tests, the front armor of the T-90 was hit with the newest subcalibre(APSDFS) and hollow charge rounds, up to the level of modern armor piercing rounds for the 120 mm gun of the Abrams. From a distance of 200 meters, six rounds were thus fired at the tank. Thereafter, the machine drove to the demonstration area. Then, without repairs, the sides of T-90 were subject to hits of modernized RPG rounds, to the same result: The armor has not been penetrated. The only components damaged were the protective side skirts.
On the other hand, 2003 in Iraq, the sides of Abrams were penetrated by RPG-7 rounds even of the earliest modification. Iraq also showed the vulnerable side of the Abrams: Its auxiliary power unit powering all electric systems on board when the main engine is shut down. It is easily hit by fire of heavy machinegun. On the T-90, the APU is put under main armour. Apart from that, all T-90 come ready equipped with "Shtora(Curtain)" electro-optical suppression system. This system lures away enemy rockets fired at the tank. Abrams lacks such equipment. In combat, the American tank would hardly withstand the guided missile fired by T-90 from smoothbore gun. The working distance of T-90 is 5 km. The gunning precision in this situation borders on absolute. The missile can be fired both from standing position and on the move. It requires no additional skills from the gunner.

Main gun power of T-90 and Abrams is roughly equal. Penetrating capability of the domestic(i.e. Russian) armor-piercing round with wolfram penetrating rod is in no aspect inferior to its competitor, the American round with DU penetrating rod. Comparable rounds were also developed domestically(e.g., in USSR), but they are highly hazardous to the crew's health, and their serial production was delayed to days of severe need.
A tank should not only be able to destroy enemy tanks, but also enemy personnel dangerous to tanks - RPG and ATGM teams. In this aspect, T-90 is way ahead of Abrams: Its loadout includes a proximity-fuzed(or says he remotely fuzed?) frag/shrapnel round that can be detonated both over enemy infantry and near enemy helicopters. Such rounds lack on the Abrams.

Thanks to Western military magazins, it was long time believed that electronics and optics on Russian tanks are imperfect, to say the least. In reality, the fire control system of T-90 is in no way enferior to its NATO counterparts. What's more, this tank holds the unofficial record of gunning precision and speed. During a demonstration to Western delegations, the gunner of T-90S destroyed seven real targets over distances ranging from 1,5 to 2,5 km in 54 seconds only - on the move with a speed of 25 km/h. The official record holder, the German Leopard 2, hits one target less under comparable conditions. Also, thanks to its guided missiles, the T-90 has the longest arm of the tank world.

Early modifications of T-90 had worse mobility than the Abrams. With its new 1000 hp engine, the T-90 is now equal of the Abrams with respect to this most important indicator, for all practical purposes. As to cross-country capability, the two tanks cannot be compared. At the armament exhibition in Abu Dhabi in 1993, Abrams threw a track climbing over a banal hill side of the exhibition tankodrome.
The Russian tank, on the other hand, has cleared almost 3000 km heavy terrain of the Malayan jungle where all of its competitors bogged down. It showed itself from its best side during the march through the Tar(sp?) desert in India during heat over 50 degrees Celsius.

Unavoidable requirement to any future combat machines is high informatization. In the near future, T-90 is to be equipped with the most modern satellite navigation suite. This way, the Abrams will lose its last advantage it has over the Russian tank.

As of today, T-90 surpasses Abrams in most aspects. However, their competition is very near its end: Modernization capacity has been all but used up for both machines. New-generation tanks are soon to roll onto the battlefield.
 
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I'd just like to praise that incredibly unbiased, level headed and honest appraisal.
Pauses only to adjust spinning bow tie, straighten lime green bowler hat, stick on red nose and polish size 30 comic shoes.
I have no particular axe to grind as I'm not a huge Abrams fan, but that report is written by a master of spin, like was not compared with like. Requirements were not placed in context, the list goes on.
The one thing I can agree with is that in their present iteration, tanks are nearing the end of their usefull lives.
Oh and has anyone got any proof of a Chally 2 getting knocked out/ armour pierced etc by an RPG?......no, thought not :D
 
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:) Yep, it would deffo knock out a Chally 2










If the firer could figure out how to get inside it while the crew had their backs turned, and then fire it at the ready rounds on the turret floor.
Its designed to defeat ERA plus conventional armour, Chally has neither of those.
On a side note though, I never felt a burning need to denigrate the performance of WarPac kit. Indeed I have driven a lot of it and recovered other items that were deemed to be of "special interest". I have a sneaking admiration for much of the design. I performed a transmission lift and repair on a russian ARV with no special training, a task that would have been considerably harder on modern NATO kit. I am intrigued though as to why you regularly take swipes at NATO stuff, not particularly bothered mind you as most of your comments are reasoned and intelligent, just inaccurate. I base mine on stuff I have seen and done first hand, I suspect that you do not.
 
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If we move away from tank warfare (that seem to be all you talk about :p ) I think I remember that after the reunion of Germany when the western block got their hands on some East-German Mig 29s they shat their pants because they had working HUDs on the visiors of the helmets something that was not present in any NATO fighter aircraft at the time.

And as far as I am concerned you can not exclude nuclear weapons from the equation because that most certainly would be a part of the equation in the case of a all out war.

And with nukes in account I say Soviet would have won.

I seem to remember a scenario from the 60s I think. NATO managed to shoot down one or two Soviet Migs and when they had found and examined the wreck/wrecks and found out that all electronics where based on "primitive" cathod ray tubes they went to the media mocking the russian millitary about their obsolete equipment.

Well a bit after this incident some NATO reasearchers realised why the electronics where based on cathot ray tubes. In the case of a nuclear war where you might have to operate close to detonating nuclear weapons the Soviet fighters would continue to fly while they NATO aircraft would not, because their avionics and control systems would be destroyed by the EMP.
 
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If the firer could figure out how to get inside it while the crew had their backs turned, and then fire it at the ready rounds on the turret floor. Its designed to defeat ERA plus conventional armour, Chally has neither of those.

Yeah, and RPG rounds are made of marshmellows amd chocolate chip cookies.
RPG-29 penetrated both T-90 and T-80U frontal armor WITH ERA. Thats about 80 cm-132 cm against HEAT. And neither of those have conventional armor.

Challenger 2 has only about 30 cm worth of side armor, both turret and hull.
Maybe those RPG rounds magically turn into marshmellows when hitting western tanks. :p
 
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If we move away from tank warfare (that seem to be all you talk about :p ) I think I remember that after the reunion of Germany when the western block got their hands on some East-German Mig 29s they shat their pants because they had working HUDs on the visiors of the helmets something that was not present in any NATO fighter aircraft at the time.

And as far as I am concerned you can not exclude nuclear weapons from the equation because that most certainly would be a part of the equation in the case of a all out war.

And with nukes in account I say Soviet would have won.

I seem to remember a scenario from the 60s I think. NATO managed to shoot down one or two Soviet Migs and when they had found and examined the wreck/wrecks and found out that all electronics where based on "primitive" cathod ray tubes they went to the media mocking the russian millitary about their obsolete equipment.

Well a bit after this incident some NATO reasearchers realised why the electronics where based on cathot ray tubes. In the case of a nuclear war where you might have to operate close to detonating nuclear weapons the Soviet fighters would continue to fly while they NATO aircraft would not, because their avionics and control systems would be destroyed by the EMP.

It wasn't after they shot one down, it was after they got their hands on one after a pilot defected. You're right though, the WarPac kit while more basic was far better at resisting EMP. I beleive I already mentioned I like their kit.

USA motto "Quality will out"
Russian Motto "Quantity has a quality all its own"
 
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If we move away from tank warfare (that seem to be all you talk about :p ) I think I remember that after the reunion of Germany when the western block got their hands on some East-German Mig 29s they shat their pants because they had working HUDs on the visiors of the helmets something that was not present in any NATO fighter aircraft at the time.

And as far as I am concerned you can not exclude nuclear weapons from the equation because that most certainly would be a part of the equation in the case of a all out war.

And with nukes in account I say Soviet would have won.

I seem to remember a scenario from the 60s I think. NATO managed to shoot down one or two Soviet Migs and when they had found and examined the wreck/wrecks and found out that all electronics where based on "primitive" cathod ray tubes they went to the media mocking the russian millitary about their obsolete equipment.

Well a bit after this incident some NATO reasearchers realised why the electronics where based on cathot ray tubes. In the case of a nuclear war where you might have to operate close to detonating nuclear weapons the Soviet fighters would continue to fly while they NATO aircraft would not, because their avionics and control systems would be destroyed by the EMP.
Most if not all of the US combat machines are protected against EMP.

There would be no Winning side to a Nuke exchange, not even for lands unscathed by the initial blasts.

The Russians do have superior inter-continental missiles that do not go ballistic. Which makes them difficult to detect and destroy.

We on the other hand have Chuck Norris.
 
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Most if not all of the US combat machines are protected against EMP.

There would be no Winning side to a Nuke exchange, not even for lands unscathed by the initial blasts.

The Russians do have superior inter-continental missiles that do not go ballistic. Which makes them difficult to detect and destroy.

We on the other hand have Chuck Norris.

Nice post!
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night, he checks his closet for Chuck Norris"
http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/
 
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