My thoughts on a great game. (LONG)

[WhiteHawke]

So I've got to say, I really love this game. I have been playing it over everything else recently. The atmosphere is great, the weapon physics are great, the aiming process is great. I've gotten most of my friends to buy it. I'm up to 5 people now, and two more are thinking about it. It's the first game I've seen in quite some time where the developers actually seem to give a damn about their work, and I know I'll be supporting Tripwire in anything they decide to do in the future.

The only thing I don't really like about the game is the way some people play it, which seems to make it very hard for the attacking side to win. When I say "the way some people play" I suppose I really mean the way some people actually don't play. They just sit there, usually in an obscure out-of-the-way position and rifle at enemies who they will not hit because they ****. I have come to believe this is because they are cowards or incompetent, or both. In any case a commissar would solve this problem quite nicely, forcing to people to actually pretend like they would like to win a match once ever in their lives. When the commissar executes you, you do not die, you are expelled from the server to make room for people that might actually play.

Ok, so the above is total sarcasm, and I realize that it's an idea that has no place in reality, but what is it with RO players? Why do they not seem to care about winning a match? Why is it that so few people understand that a transparent flag is uncappable? Why is it that so few people ever try to cap flags? Why is it that so few squad leaders throw smoke for their troops to advance though? Why is it that so few people take advantage of the cover smoke provides when it is thrown?

These questions plague me every time I play, as I find myself doing everything for the team that needs doing, if it can be done alone that is(which of course, it often cannot be). This isn't to say I give up when I get killed trying to capture that entrenched objective for the 20th time from the 20th different angle, but it is somewhat disheartening when I realize that my team mates aren't even trying to move up. They have found a window or a hole to hide in, and they are going to stay there for the rest of the game, regardless of whether another enemy comes within their line of sight or not, and regardless of how badly their team might need them somewhere else.

I guess the funny thing is (as in, the ironic kind of funny) this community seems to be quite the opposite of so many others you can see in online gaming. Whereas the average counter-strike or battlefield player does not understand the meaning of the word "cover" and would gladly run into enemy fire time and time again just because he might get another kill or a glorious headshot, the red orchestra player would seem to rather hide in a bush, indefinitely, regardless of what the win condition of the level might be or whether there is actually a good reason to be hiding in the bush. And of course I realize a bush is concealment, not cover, but that's not the point! The point is that both of these players seem painfully stupid or ignorant to me, just for completely different reasons.

And yes, I realize that many people may not think the point of the game is to win, but I am of the opinion that games are meant to be won. I also realize that we are all here to play the game, but if the game is well designed(and this one seems damn well designed to me) then we should all be doing quite a bit of playing in the process of attempting to win. I guess this opinion I have is based on the idea that objectives give me purpose when I play a game, beyond just killing the next few guys. This isn't to say that mindless slaughter isn't fun every now and again, but for me it gets old, quickly. If there isn't a reason to try to accomplish something then I have a hard time justifying to myself why I should be killing anyone. It would be just another deathmatch, which I have played FAR too many of. Maybe some people haven't played enough deathmatches though, and that's exactly why they play the way they do. Maybe it isn't old to them. Yet.

This I suppose is what depresses me the most. The fact that we have an excellent environment for squad-based tactics to be executed in, yet so often players ignore the positioning of their team mates and go to the place on the map where they believe they are likely to score a kill. We have great in game voice support, and even though it is used far more than any other game's I've played in the past few years (except perhaps some CS matches that degenerate into name-calling fests) it is only used by a few people in the crowd. I suppose I wish that more people were ready to move on and enjoy a deeper experience, as I find I am, but who I am I to say what people should enjoy?

Even with all my above complaints, this community seems like a pretty great group of individuals, who are genuinely interested in the future of the game and seem to care about each other to a certain degree. You can't say that about many communities, and even though I find faults with the way some people play, I have to say that I am impressed with the attitude of the community as a whole, however small it is.

So what do you guys think? Am I seeing faults where there are none? Is my opinion shared by others? When will I learn to stop writing and just post something? These questions and more answered in your responses!

 

[mbrooksay]

Ok, so the above is total sarcasm, and I realize that it's an idea that has no place in reality, but what is it with RO players? Why do they not seem to care about winning a match? Why is it that so few people understand that a transparent flag is uncappable? Why is it that so few people ever try to cap flags? Why is it that so few squad leaders throw smoke for their troops to advance though? Why is it that so few people take advantage of the cover smoke provides when it is thrown?

I think I can answer that for you by telling you that the casual RO players aren't playing in a server to win; they are there to have fun. It doesn't matter whether they win or lose. If it's not that, then it is because they are new to the game and don't have a grip on what is going on around them yet.

Personally, if I'm on a map I like, I don't want my team to win or lose in a matter of minutes. I normally like all three rounds to be played. Map switches always get me tempted to press escape and disconnect. Call me impatient.

 

[ViViD]

I understand how you feel, I see it all too often, the squad leader not using arty, the people with smgs at the back tryin gto snipe people. And here you are running for the objective with a bolt action rifle and bayonet fixed only to be naded by your own team <sigh>

My advise, get your squad mates on the same side and blow the crap out of every lamer and use squad base tactics and crush them completely.

If you have 5-6 of your squad based team using tactics and seizing the objectives then it just a rollcoaster of public death. And you can only hope that the people in the rear see this squad of people crushing the enemy and have noone to shoot, they will move forward to get the kills as who wants to spend half the day laying in the grass wondering what to do the rifle.

 

[WhiteHawke]

mbrooksay, When you say they are just there to have fun, I take it you mean to just shoot people and get shot at. This is what I was talking about with that whole deathmatch rant, and the fact that I can't have fun just shooting people because its very old for me.

I agree that a game isn't much fun if it ends almost as soon as it begins, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't labor to make it end as quickly as possible. If I did not then I would feel like I wasn't giving 100%, and I would be left wondering how things would have gone if I had tried harder. To me, games are most interesting when everyone puts forth all of their best efforts, because that is when you can truly see emergent tactics and players reaching new heights that even they themselves might not have realized they were capable of. I would be very upset if I could look back and see that I might be responsible for not having helped such things to happen because I didn't try hard enough.

This all comes from the fact that I love competition, and I love to see skilled and equally matched forces engage each other.

ViViD, it is an unfortunate fact that most of my friends have a hard time getting on TS and RO together all at the same time, since we all have jobs of some sort, and several of us still have college courses. Although when we do get together, the sort of domination you described usually does occur, but it feels empty when you know that the opponent might be capable of putting up a fight if they just had some coordination or leadership. For me, a win is only truly rewarding when I can feel as though I've earned it by fighting equal or superior forces and beating them through superior application of tactics to the environment at hand.

Of course, this means I don't get a whole lot of really rewarding wins (since so few of my team mates are aware of the fact they are actually in an objective based game), and that I get quite a few more losses (since I almost always join the team that is losing). But I think I'm O.K. with that, because even though my philosophies on competitive play and teamwork make many of my victories feel hollow, and many of my loses feel pointless, I occasionally do overcome a superior enemy without the help of my team, and I occasionally do win against an equally skilled enemy force because of good coordination and communication. Those wins are the reason I play this game, and in my opinion, they are things that truly make it great.

 

[MILK]

....
This all comes from the fact that I love competition, and I love to see skilled and equally matched forces engage each other.
...

first this is hard to reach balance in game like CS where score tab shows pretty well who should probably switch to even teams, in RO it is more difficult, still possible tho. And regarding level of cooperation, at this moment there is huge difference between playing on server with lots of clan players and server filled mostly with no-claners. More clans will be out here than most understanding of teamplay in RO will be seen (...and what works on public very often does not work in clanmatches). And I think situation is still getting better and better.
You say you like competition than there is nothing better than clan matches for you. Public will always stay place for less coordination and little chaoss... there will always be somebody who is not doing what he/she should do... smoking, making coffee, being on toilet, calling with mom :S... nobody can be upset if your public team is loosing.... it is just public... and there are just good and bad servers

 

[Nifel]

I can see where you are coming from WhiteHawke - I have had those experiences as well, though it seems it's been more of that the last 2- 3 months than it was half a year ago.

Yesterday I was playing a few hours and I was SO frustrated on Basovka when the german commander didn't smoke and even worse on Stalingrad when the sappers didn't blow the doors. On both maps my team got slaughtered and it was NO fun. The reason was of course that I was on the assaulting team on both occations and the defenders were pretty good. Finally I had to murder my own sappers so I could blow things up.

We did alot better on Koenigsplatz; the russkies didn't ever get to the Siegess

 

[Ricky(SCO)]

Firstly Whitehawke, a well constructed introduction, for such a long piece of writing.

The lack of coordination you have experienced, in attacking squads, is something that you will find on many servers, and will vary depending on who uses that server at that time of day. Many people play the game solo and for fun, and it is all our choices, as individuals, on how we decide to play the game. Sometimes I want to gungho, but mainly I am a team player.

I think you will find however that you have been unfortunate in your choice of servers upto now. I am a fan of the RTR and 181 servers personally. There are many players on there who I recognise regularly, and I know some of their playstyles. And I assume that some of them will recognise my play style. As a result what you then have is some common experience, and someone that will be willing to work with you, if you ask for it. As you get to know more people you will get people willing to work together.

You have Teamspeak, as well as VoIP already built into RO. Get on the mic, use some encouraging words to those around you, and try and lead by example. Suggest,something like "I am going for ????. Who is going to attack with me?" Dont berate them if they dont follow you, because at the end of the day, that is their style of play choice. But three or four people might go, and almost certainly it will be an enjoyable experience with them, because that is the style of play that you want.

Get on your mic and congratulate people, when required, and even if you get thumped, be upbeat about how good fun it was, and say lets do it again. People in your team will hear you talking, and will be aware that they are missing out on something. No matter how entertaining there own game is going, by talking on the mic you are broadcasting to all in your team, and they now know that there is more fun going on somewhere else, and they may just want to join in.

Effectively what you want to do, is become one of the vocal "squad leader" type people. There are a few of them about - Colt45 and 181s LapaKota are two that always spring to mind. I have really enjoyed being on servers when they are there, because they are on that mic regularly and are pushing the team on.

I would suggest giving the 181 or RTR server a try. See if you find some players who are more like your style of play. As mentioned previously, if you find clan members you are more likely to find more squad type battles.

Hope to see you on the battlefield some time.

 

[SheepDip]

Welcome to RO, glad to hear you're showing more people the light!

It's all down to leadership really. I've been on servers before where everyone is just getting their kills, doing a so-so job of actually winning. When a good leader comes on, whether he's on voice comms or using teamsay (I usually go on Teamspeak with a few friends when I play, we banter whilst we play...) it can make a huge difference. We've gone from being on the back foot to attacking, capturing and winning a map.

There are loads of types of players in RO, from the riflemen who always stay back and never attack (a role suited to snipers and MGers), the run & gun smg'ers (there are more sensible smg'ers) to the enemy AT soldiers who complain and call you a camper when you don't charge your tank into the sieges built up rubbley death-trap on Konigsplatz.

On public servers a lot of the time it's about finding a balance, there are always players who take the "lone wolf" approach, AT classes especially. But if you get enough people willing to follow a plan, and work together other people will join in.
I usually hang around on the Splat server, the NANO server, The Wild Bunch server, or the Fraud Squad server.

 

[Rameusb5]

To the OP:

I have this frustration as well. Here's how you get around it:

Always try to take the class that's needed to "win" the assault. If the map requires that an objective be blown, or that a door needs blown up, take an engineer. If not, take the squad leader. Whatever you do, get your hands on a SMG.

Next, attack the objectives. If something needs blown, you'll have to blow it yourself. When you play on pubs, odds are you'll be doing most of the legwork.

Once all of the stuff that needs blown up is blown up, get in the capzone. Start killing the defenders rambo-style (or CS style if you will). Once you've cleared out the defenders, put a call over VOIP (don't bother with text, most can't read it) that you need help capping. Be relentless about it. Keep asking for help capping until someone shows up.


It sounds like you are a candidate for a team leader. There are a few players in the community who actually love the thrill of assaulting an objective and taking it. So you'll need to LEAD your team to do this. If they don't respond to your requests for help, you're doomed. At that point (though I've never done this myself), switch sides and kill them all.


An important note. ASK for help over VOIP. Don't demand anything and don't try to give orders. Just point out contacts and ask for aid in capping. Generally, at least one or two of your teamates will show up and help you.


I'm a bit suprised I don't see more clanners come into the Pubs and totally PWN everyone. A good teamwork oriented team would completely and totally crush a disorganized one.

 

[Katczinsky42]

what irks me most are squadleaders who don't use smoke, arty or their increased capping power, ie they just choose the class for the weapon.

Agree with posters about assuming the role of leader, helps if you can wrestle the squadleader position from the wastrel who is currently occupying it and direct with voice coms plus smoke as a visual marker for the attack direction (or you may want ot bluff with the smoke).

The best team play comes from clans on clan servers, unfortunately, they tend to use TS so they essentially operate a closed unit, yes the objectives get capped, but often by the time you realise in what direction they are attacking, its all over.

Some clans use a mix of TS and voice coms to encourage public play and dont just play with themselves on their server - 5thW, {Core} just to name two.

 

[mbrooksay]

WhiteHawke, you're expecting way too much out of players in a public server. If your love for "applying superior tactics in the environment at hand" is really what you enjoy doing, then you should join a clan that competes frequently and fits in well with your schedule/life style. Iron Crescendo is a type of Ro tournament where you can play on Saturdays and Sundays with 14 other people who want to cooperate as a team.

I have learned that no matter how hard a game developer tries to enforce teamwork and communication, players are still going to run off and do their own things, it's the nature of "tactical first person shooters."

Other than that, I really don't know what to say to you. Chances are this post isn't reaching out to those solo-players you find in pubs, just to other people who share your frustration.

 

[WhiteHawke]

MILK, I know that public servers are not a good place to find teamwork, but that's what I'm trying to lament. Just the fact that people don't really seem to appreciate the game for what it is. I bet clan play is pretty coordinated, and I think I may try to get involved more in that sort of thing. I do agree that things are getting better and that gamers are getting smarter, but wow is it a slow process. I guess I wish there were a way to speed things up a bit.

Nifel, Yes, time is an issue for me too. With work and classes I really play on a pretty unpredictable schedule. Maybe I can find someone that could work around that.

Ricky(SCO), I've already been experimenting with most of the ideas you suggested. The only thing I haven't really done is be positive after a painful loss, but I see how useful that might be. I'll look for the servers you suggested, and I'll try to be even more vocal.

SheepDip, I am almost always on teamspeak, so I know what you mean. I'll check out those servers as well.

Rameusb5, you are pretty much describing exactly how I play now, except for the fact that there is almost always one of my close friends near me doing the same stuff, and the part about switching teams when my team refuses to play.

When I speak, I usually say something like "we need smoke at the base of the tower to move in, JohnDoe, I see you are playing SL, could you do that for us?". This usually seems to work pretty well, but I've only been doing this with SLs and sappers and people that absolutely have to do something for us to win the game. Perhaps I should start extending this to providing advice on good angles of fire for riflemen, and good areas to be assaulting into for smgs.

I know how lethal good teamwork is, but I can only imagine how lethal an entire team working together might be. I'd really like to see that in action one day.

Katczinsky42, I don't mind using TS at all, and if the objectives are capped almost instantly then I would wager that means someone didn't plan very well.

mbrooksay, I will look into Iron Crescendo, that really sounds like something that *might* work for my schedule. As for expecting too much of public players, I disagree. I do not really expect public players to have any concept of why cover is important, why flanking is essential, and why concealment can turn the tide of a battle. I would however expect them to "have a pair", of which the vast majority seem to be lacking. If they were possessing of a "pair" then perhaps I wouldn't see them doing exactly the sort of cowardice things I see them doing on a daily basis.

That's what I lament more than anything, the fact that people seem to have no desire to move up and face the enemy.

And yes, I know this post will not reach the people that I wish could hear it. I posted it trying to find out if I was alone in my opinions or if perhaps others thought as I did. Now that I see that others do indeed share my opinion, I will try to take their advice in these matters since they have been dealing with it longer than I have. I will defintiely be looking for competitive environment through some sort of clan or tournament. This game is too great of an opportunity to be wasted on people that do not appreciate it.

 

[MarioBava]

I'm a bit suprised I don't see more clanners come into the Pubs and totally PWN everyone. A good teamwork oriented team would completely and totally crush a disorganized one.

If clans made a habit of doing this, it would totally ruin the RO experience on public servers. I've played in enough other games where certain clans hosted or joined public servers but then insisted on clan members all sticking to one team and letting the poor Joes off the street try their luck on the other team. Needless to say, it was almost always a slaughter and quite honestly not any fun (oh, I'm sure the clannies were having a ball). I am grateful, as a public server user, that RO clans seem to courteously shun this kind of butchery.

I would guess the majority of people want to be able to enjoy a game without worrying over joining a clan, myself included. My experience on public RO servers has been overwhelmingly positive. Yes, every once in a while there is a match or a round where the side I am on can't seem to get it together. And I would say most of the time this is evidently due largely to lack of communication. The simple act of providing teammates with situational information goes a long way to creating a sense of teamwork, even if the round is ultimately lost. You can't be a team if you have no concrete sense that there are other people playing to try to win with you, and the most basic way to create this sense is to talk to each other. Not everybody is going to do this, but even just a few people communicating over voip will give almost everybody a stronger feeling of being on a team, and the spirit to participate in the team's goals.

I'd like to echo everybody's comments that suggested we stay positive and friendly about team communication.

 

[mbrooksay]

Whenever we get a lot of {CoreNA} guys pubbing we normally split ourselves fairly amongst both teams. We wouldn't dare stack us all on one team unless we really felt a need to clean house (opposing clan, trash-talking players or whatever).

 

[melipone]

Just get the main clan servers in your favourites and join them exculsively when clan members or names you recognise are on. Main clans are:

Splat
project.twilight
Core
War is cell (cell)
Nano

Theres more but just join 1 and see if you like the way people play there. If you see anyone you think is a good teamplayer then add him to your buddy list and next time you play join the server with the most buddies playing there.

You just need to avoid servers that people randomly join. That way you will play with regulars/clan people. Stay away from servers with single maps on (people will join just for that map and leave - less teamwork because they just want a quick game) or don't have any buddies playing (once you have a decent buddy list)
​

 

[Dheepan]

Try ic dude. I think you'll really like it. click the text in my sig. In short it's a tournament with fixed sides that play out the eatern front with an open ended outcome. Imagine 16x16 where everyone knows what they are doing.

 

[DirtyRat]

Just want to say, congrats White Hawke on a very observant first post, its nice to see some real involvement from new players.

Sounds like you definately would like a clan experience in order to feel what RO is truley about and we at -62nd- are always on the lookout for adult gamers so come check us oot.

Aside from said pimping I think you'll find the same problems exist gamewide, my main frustration is not being able to co-ordinate tactical frontal assaults on RO...as a converted communist i want everyone to charge headlong into enemy fire and cap the damn objective!!!!! But nobody seems "hard" enough to do it!

I think we need a mutator with an invisble commissar at spawn shooting anyone who hangs back too long

 

[Nifel]

The Norwegian Community have something like Iron Crescendo as well, where we sign up on the Norwegian RO forums stating whether we want to command, drive tanks, bolt, snipe, etc. One commander is then chosen for each team, and the rest distributed evenly among those depending on what class they want to play. Then it's just pure tactics and teamwork!

You definately should check out Iron Crescendo if it's anything like that

 

[riZZo]

To me, games are most interesting when everyone puts forth all of their best efforts, because that is when you can truly see emergent tactics and players reaching new heights that even they themselves might not have realized they were capable of

Agreed, a good example of this is BF2142 (or BF2) when people say you havent played the game untill you have been in a good squad with members doing thier jobs (medics are healing and reviving and not just trying to rambo everything) and with a squad leader and commander who know what they are doing.

The same is true for RO. I bought RO the moment it was available on steam, the first few games I played just seemed to be HL2 Deathmatch but with IS. Then i played on a clans public server, 9/10 people use microphones and everyone was playing as a team. I agree with you, when this happens you notice that everyone in the team will play better and generally have much more fun, no matter if you win or loose.

riZZo

 

[WhiteHawke]

MarioBava, As I've already stated, I don't like uneven matches either. They are simply uninteresting, but it may be that if people got stomped a little more often by an organized group, they might be more likely to decide that perhaps they should try at least a little organziation.

melipone, Thanks for the reccomendations. I'll look for those servers.

Dheepan, IC does appeal to me, I think I'll be signing up with them today.

DirtyRat, I wish there was some way to deal with idle players that didn't cause issues for spectators and people that can't respawn due to reinforcements.

riZZo, I agree with you about BF2, as I played a lot of that game. This should define "a lot": http://www.bf2s.com/player/37233041/ . I really liked how a well coordinated squad could make the difference every single time, and even though the medic was a little too good, and some of the other classes were pretty much ass, and the vehicles were boring to use at best (except the chopper), there were some really fun aspects of BF2.

My friends are all still learning the RO maps, as they just bought the game, so we don't have the same level of coordination we had in BF2. It seems like most of them can never keep up with me, and whenever I make references to my coordinates based on the map grid they are usually more confused. They are really kinda lost without having me as their spawn point and as a giant number 1 with a circle around it on a hud-based tactical map.