If Americans were in RO...

[Oldih]

Well reason why M1 Carbine wasn't so "powerful" in first place at all that it was technically pistol, submachine gun and a rifle combined.

I don't remember 100% the story but they needed other weapons for crewmen, LMG assistants, drivers and other people like that than a pistol. Pistol was too weak espect in close ranges if it would come into ambush, while SMG like Thompson would be too heavy in general.

So as a result they developed M1 Carbine. Technically a fast semi-auto rifle with decent accuracy using pistol rounds. Deadly in close quarters, useless at what we call "OMG TOO WEAK NO SNIPERING BAD WEAPON!"

So frankly, it may be useless at longer ranges but certainly it will deal great damage at short ones.

Saying the Americans won is ignorant and an insult to all the other countries involved.

Depends on point of view.



And about the thread itself, well adding western countries proplery would not be that bad. I just believe the oh-so-mature RO scene would then abandon their favorite game for becoming too much Call of Duty.


Come on people, besides for some very rare expections (well you would call the quakegames still), is there any real other common FPS games based on western front than Medal of Honor franchies and Call of Duty franchise? Most of the "too much west front" crap is based upon the fact that people know only MoH and CoD (and MoH is still damm fun to play in SP) while they have nothing else than visual realism, causing it to be a quakegame.

Same applies for some other stuff, like Brothers in Arms is a quakegame because there is crosshair on by default and that it is western front based.


So let me guess, IF they add any western countries RO is suddenly bought by EA\Activision and it turns into Medal of Honor - Warfront or Call of Duty IV?

 

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

To reload Garand M1 rifle its ammo must be completely depleted

That is completely false.

You pull the operating rod back, press the clip detatch, and out comes the en bloc.

 

[Rak]

This thread is so pointless.

My 50cents though, even if they had more semi-autos, Germans were tactically and weapon wise(speaking of last years of war) superior.

 

[Cuddles]

I think adding more countries is cool but dont think TW will put that in the game (so theres something 4 u moders to do ) still i dont think americans will be overpowered. I think its the other way around that the tanks will be to weak. They didnt have M1A1 abrams or Apaches back then and most of the guns americans made back then (smgs assault rifles) had only 20 bullets per clip so after every few clicks u had 2 reload.

 

[ThanhSa|Seirrah]

Come on people, besides for some very rare expections (well you would call the quakegames still), is there any real other common FPS games based on western front than Medal of Honor franchies and Call of Duty franchise? Most of the "too much west front" crap is based upon the fact that people know only MoH and CoD (and MoH is still damm fun to play in SP) while they have nothing else than visual realism, causing it to be a quakegame.

People quickly assume any Western Front stuff is 'arcadey', but forget about many WW2 shooters which tried to give a decent experience, such as Hidden and Dangerous.

IF (and it's a massive if) there was an identical game to Red Orchestra, but based on the west then i'm sure it would do very well.

 

[Oldih]

People quickly assume any Western Front stuff is 'arcadey', but forget about many WW2 shooters which tried to give a decent experience, such as Hidden and Dangerous.

I agree with that, especially H&D2 is excellent overall.

But the point is that even H&D is "quakegame" in the eyes of the generality of RO community. Western front + bit too much action based stuff (sometimes) = bad quakegame ala Medal of Honor shooting ranges. So it can't be good, can it?

And as an addition, I apologize such flamebait comment. But this has been discussed ad infinitium with same result that for most of people all western front shooters = MoH\CoD shooting ranges.

 

[sander]

IMO Brothers in Arms is one of the most realistic FPS games together with RO.

 

[Cuddles]

I agree with that, especially H&D2 is excellent overall.

But the point is that even H&D is "quakegame" in the eyes of the generality of RO community. Western front + bit too much action based stuff (sometimes) = bad quakegame ala Medal of Honor shooting ranges. So it can't be good, can it?

And as an addition, I apologize such flamebait comment. But this has been discussed ad infinitium with same result that for most of people all western front shooters = MoH\CoD shooting ranges.

Well im ashamed now but that was the same thing i was thinking i saw this thread.

 

[slyder73]

Come On....

Nestor, It was an Allied Effort ...period.

Had the USA not utilized its industrial resources to SUPPLY the Allies with just about everything needed, not to mention all the additional actions and battles that deeply divided the German Force's strengths, I fear the outcome may very well have been quite different.

Had the USA stayed out of the conflict and NOT supplied anyone through the Lend Lease Act... Both Churchill and Stalin would have had their heads handed to them and the Pacific Rim would be all Japanese.

The true analysis is where the "staying power" and "combative efforts" to effect the defeat of the Axis Powers came from on the part of all the Allies.

By 1943 the Germans were on the defensive on the East. If the American industrial might had not been brought to bear, the Soviets would have likely still driven the Germans all the way back to Berlin, though it might have taken a lot more years. If you read studies of the German economy at the time, it supports this. The German economy could not keep up to the war effort, nor could they keep up to the manpower drain. By economy I mean the sheer amount of industrial output. There is already a marked difference by 1943 in the quality of weapons and vehicles being procuded. They were having shortages of metals, a lack of oil reserves they tried to take from the Russians and were blocked by Stalingrad made fuel shortages endemic in the German war effort.
Taking into account the manpower drain alone. The Germans at some points were losing 60,000 a month on the Eastern front. This drain could not be supported, and by 1945 the German army was in DESPERATE shortage of experienced and well trained men of combat age. They were using younger and younger (Hitler Youth divisions were emplyed here, as well as reserves and older gentlement). The Russians in comparison were mobilizing millions. The manpower drain wasn't an issue, you have to remember that even after the war, Stalin caused the death of millions to tens of millions of his own people. The soviet war effort did not really start up until 1942 so their industrial power was just coming online and they had massive resources of metals and petroleum. The whole Lend Lease program was only helpful in that it speeded up the timeline for the western Allies to liberate France. This was French/British pressure, not an indication of whether Germany was going to win.
If the US had not joined the war, the Germans would have lost anyway, the biggest difference is that the line dividing East/West Europe would have been a lot further West after the war.

 

[Kenza]

But the point is that even H&D is "quakegame" in the eyes of the generality of RO community. Western front + bit too much action based stuff (sometimes) = bad quakegame ala Medal of Honor shooting ranges. So it can't be good, can it?

Actually most of the opinions i've heard (mine also) against a western based ro game is that you already have 46845 games with the americans "pwning" the germans and almost no game with the russians, romanians, finns and so on. So why do something that has been done so many times before when you can do something more fresh?

 

[Musketeer]

A history note about the Garand M1...never saw in any game.

To reload Garand M1 rifle its ammo must be completely depleted and at this point the exiting clip did a characteristic sound. When german soldiers discovered that that sound indicated the enemy is out of ammo and needs to reload they took vantage by attacking the enemy in that moment.

Then the americans learned how to fake the sound when they allready still had ammo on the garand...

Cheers

Not true at all. CoD and CoD2 both had the distinctive "PING" of the clip being ejected from the M1 and neither could be reloaded when partially full. I believe this was also present in MoH. Many, many, many times I would wait to hear that "PING" and then attack during the reload.

 

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

IMO Brothers in Arms is one of the most realistic FPS games together with RO.

BiA is somewhat realistic, except the lack of weapon accuracy.

 

[Mike_Nomad]

By 1943 the Germans were on the defensive on the East. If the American industrial might had not been brought to bear, the Soviets would have likely still driven the Germans all the way back to Berlin, though it might have taken a lot more years.

Gimme a break.... please DO READ ALL the studies from 1935 forward.... You know what, though? This is a senseless debate that's going nowhere worthwhile. I'm done with it.

 

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Not true at all. CoD and CoD2 both had the distinctive "PING" of the clip being ejected from the M1 and neither could be reloaded when partially full. I believe this was also present in MoH. Many, many, many times I would wait to hear that "PING" and then attack during the reload.

But as I stated, the M1 Garand can be reloaded midclip.

 

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

By 1943 the Germans were on the defensive on the East. If the American industrial might had not been brought to bear, the Soviets would have likely still driven the Germans all the way back to Berlin, though it might have taken a lot more years. If you read studies of the German economy at the time, it supports this. The German economy could not keep up to the war effort, nor could they keep up to the manpower drain. By economy I mean the sheer amount of industrial output. There is already a marked difference by 1943 in the quality of weapons and vehicles being procuded. They were having shortages of metals, a lack of oil reserves they tried to take from the Russians and were blocked by Stalingrad made fuel shortages endemic in the German war effort.
Taking into account the manpower drain alone. The Germans at some points were losing 60,000 a month on the Eastern front. This drain could not be supported, and by 1945 the German army was in DESPERATE shortage of experienced and well trained men of combat age. They were using younger and younger (Hitler Youth divisions were emplyed here, as well as reserves and older gentlement). The Russians in comparison were mobilizing millions. The manpower drain wasn't an issue, you have to remember that even after the war, Stalin caused the death of millions to tens of millions of his own people. The soviet war effort did not really start up until 1942 so their industrial power was just coming online and they had massive resources of metals and petroleum. The whole Lend Lease program was only helpful in that it speeded up the timeline for the western Allies to liberate France. This was French/British pressure, not an indication of whether Germany was going to win.
If the US had not joined the war, the Germans would have lost anyway, the biggest difference is that the line dividing East/West Europe would have been a lot further West after the war.

In 1943 the Western Allies had already begun launching the Offensive into Italy. I don't believe manpower would have been an issue for the Germans in the East without Husky or Torch. I also believe that without the lend-lease act, Torch, and Husky, that a bitter peace between Russia and Germany was not that far off.

 

[snakedude24]

If, if, if.... if my grandma had balls, then she would be my grandpa

Ugh.

 

[2fisted]

many WW2 shooters which tried to give a decent experience, such as Hidden and Dangerous.

IF (and it's a massive if) there was an identical game to Red Orchestra, but based on the west then i'm sure it would do very well.

I concure!

I see opportunity for TW down the road to make a Desert/tank combat version of RO. Especialy w/ the long range battles to come thx to the recent modifications.

Why not Americans? I don't see it hurting. TW seems to think big, yet able keep focus on gfx quality & realism.

 

[Musketeer]

But as I stated, the M1 Garand can be reloaded midclip.

Yes, it COULD but you usually didn't. For simplicity sake most games have you empty the firearm.

I think it is true to say that, given the play style of RO and coordination aside, the USA would have a significant advantage if the basic soldier had a M1 over a K98.

The Germans though would have a huge tank advantage that could only be mitigated by use if very late war US tanks (Jumbo Sherman) and or a much higher rate of respawn of Shermans and tank destroyers. As I saw and old German tanker state on "Fields of Armor": "When we shot an American tank it would catch on fire. Then two more would come out from behind it." That tells us two things.

1. American Tanks were vastly overmatched one on one against the Germans.
2. American Tanks made a point of never fighting a German one on one!

I know in Combat Mission I would often use the Shermans speed and numbers to encircle German Panthers and Tigers, thereby getting to shoot them in the rear. You would loose a Sherman or two doing this but you almost always outnumberred the German armor.

 

[Oldih]

Actually most of the opinions i've heard (mine also) against a western based ro game is that you already have 46845 games with the americans "pwning" the germans and almost no game with the russians, romanians, finns and so on. So why do something that has been done so many times before when you can do something more fresh?

You certainly have a point in there my friend, but so far only western front based games that has most things done right\properly by general quality has been H&D's and BiA's. Rest is just same "unproperly" done stuff which might be fun for sometime and then it begins to ****.

I know there are other games that has done those stuff right but at the moment we're talking about mainly abouta shooters\tactical shooters, not RTS\TBS.

I agree myself that bit more about eastern front would be nice, but I would like to see "properly" done western front stuff too.

Also another nice front would be Africa. But that is too boring since it's pretty much tank combat after another. Or is it? (offtopic)

I do not expect the addition of western countries in RO. But it would certainly give nice idea for a mod, and IF they (TWI staff) would add western countries ingame, I doubt it wouldn't destroy the entire game, but then again we would not "have" RO anymore.

 

[jedinstven-o crni Wuk]

you know, in a reall combat, its not only about the weapons you use.


Your enemy can have better equipment and even a good position, but still loose. Which happpend often enough in favour for the germans. As seen in france and africa. Never underestimate motivation and how the soldiers are trained with there equipment.