Silent slip into history: The F117

[HotDang]

Have you ever considered that the Russians do have stealth planes but they are so damn good at being stealthy that no-one has ever seen one.

 

[Rss]

The stealth was developed with help from overlooked research by an obscure Russian scientist. USA did the majority of the work that russians could not because our computer systems, and Techs were, and are much better.

Gee one F-177 was shot down out of thousands of combat sorties flown. Not one Russian aircraft can say that.

All of our aircraft and pilots are superior overall. Look at the Korean War, the MIG was faster, had a higher rate of climb, had cannons instead of .50 cal. MG's, and were flow by some of the best pilots the Soviets could muster. Kill ratios over Korea soared to 12-1 in favor of the Americans.

Americans having "better" tech is just a myth. It has no real life basis whatsoever...

Oh, Korean War. Well, what do we got here, umm, MiGs, Sabres and double standards. Hm, somehow you "forget" to mention that most of communist pilots were not soviets, but badly trained chinese and koreans. But then, best aces of Korean war were not americans, but soviets. Examples:

N. Sutyagin: 21+2 aerial victories
Y. Pepelyaev: 23 aerial victories
D. Oskin: 14 aerial victories

Only one soviet regiment, lead by GPW ace Ivan Kohzedub, inflicted 258 losses to opfor. Damn, americans stopped day-time raids by B-29s because of severe losses.

Sage, you mind telling me exactly what radar systems?

 

[Tomcat_ha]

The F117 and similair stealth planes arent a waste of resources for the US. At least during the cold war. the russians however thought more cheaper planes is better which it was for theire situation. There has been an official study by the usaf and the usn to look what would be theire losses in a large scale conventional war. After 1 week of heavy AA fights they determined the Usaf would be useless having lost over 80% of theire planes in general. That is why they started doing stealth research. I find it obvious that soviet observers watched the F117 in combat. After all it was designed against theire sam system.

Nowadays russia also is plunging into stealth because they need to. They dont have as much money avail as before so they now want a smaller but more advanced force.

Russian planes were never worse than the US planes except perhaps before the time the Su27 and the mig 29 entered service but the F15/F14/F16/F18 were. The times US pilots fought experienced pilots which were well trained were limited. Korea had poor mig pilots. That is why they lost so many. As said before the russians infact did very well while piloting but after trainign enough koreans and chineese pilots they retired.

 

[Musketeer]

For all the skill of Soviet engineers every piece of Soviet military hardware was significantly limited by the incompetent manufacturing processes in place throughout the country. Every component was suspect because the whole system was designed around making quotas set by the political leadership with no focus on quality. You average Soviet plant manager was far more concerned with making quotas now then dealing with possible quality issues now or 5 years from now.

The end result is Soviet equipment needed to be vastly overdesigned to compensate for the uncertainty of its components. Overdesign = less effiecient. For what they had they did a great job but it was only in recent years that Soviet engineers were able to have anything built to the potential of their designs.

Iraq in Gulf War 1 had the second most elaborate air defense system in the world and it was all Soviet. It was not primarily cast off equipment because the Soviets themselves were using Iraq as a testing grounds for their equipment. If you want to learn a thing or two about this read Tonny Zinni's (USMC Ret.) book Battle Ready and focus on the section where he was a part of discussions with the Soviet liasons to Iraq after the first war. The Soviets were VERY surprised at how easily the F117 defeated their most advanced systems.

 

[Rss]

Granted, soviet manufacturing lacked somewhat in quality control, but there was effort to cure that by Y. Andropov. Unfortunately effort was later wrecked by Gorby. But that still doesn't mean that over all efficiency of soviet equipment was bad. Most western military powers lack technologies such as Moskit, Arena and advanced ERA.

Overdesigned? Are we talking about same soviets? Damn, in T-72 soviets used updated version of T-34's simple engine.

Tom Clancy book? Well, eh... Sorry but I don't buy it. I still haven't heard anything about newer systems than say, Strela-10 in Iraq. They never boasted with "most advanced systems".

 

[{YBBS}Sage]

For all the skill of Soviet engineers every piece of Soviet military hardware was significantly limited by the incompetent manufacturing processes in place throughout the country. Every component was suspect because the whole system was designed around making quotas set by the political leadership with no focus on quality. You average Soviet plant manager was far more concerned with making quotas now then dealing with possible quality issues now or 5 years from now.

The end result is Soviet equipment needed to be vastly overdesigned to compensate for the uncertainty of its components. Overdesign = less effiecient. For what they had they did a great job but it was only in recent years that Soviet engineers were able to have anything built to the potential of their designs.

Iraq in Gulf War 1 had the second most elaborate air defense system in the world and it was all Soviet. It was not primarily cast off equipment because the Soviets themselves were using Iraq as a testing grounds for their equipment. If you want to learn a thing or two about this read Tonny Zinni's (USMC Ret.) book Battle Ready and focus on the section where he was a part of discussions with the Soviet liasons to Iraq after the first war. The Soviets were VERY surprised at how easily the F117 defeated their most advanced systems.

Lol, gotta love the communist-level quality control. They still did manage to turn out some nice planes, though.

As Buddy pointed out: one plane lost out of hundreds? thousands? of combat sorties over a 25-year operational period. That's a record that I doubt any other combat aircraft could match.

And if the story of how the ONE got lost is true, it was almost a fluke of a shot.

Stealth is going to be a constant battle. Aircraft manufacturers vs the radar technology. Whenever one makes an advance, the other is going to match it.

 

[Rss]

Yawn. Hardly even hundreds of combat sorties.

Hmm, what about american capitalist quality? Gotta love it, crappy Lobos and Sparrows in Viet Nam. Priceless.

 

[Tomcat_ha]

stealth is just another thing like the case of the shield and the sword. Every defensive system will be defeated sooner or later.

 

[[CiA]Stiletto]

Yawn. Hardly even hundreds of combat sorties.

Hmm, what about american capitalist quality? Gotta love it, crappy Lobos and Sparrows in Viet Nam. Priceless.

To be fair, Sparrows were forced into less-than-correct usage envelopes due to visual ROE.

 

[KrazyKraut]

The stealth was developed with help from overlooked research by an obscure Russian scientist. USA did the majority of the work that russians could not because our computer systems, and Techs were, and are much better.

Gee one F-177 was shot down out of thousands of combat sorties flown. Not one Russian aircraft can say that.

All of our aircraft and pilots are superior overall. Look at the Korean War, the MIG was faster, had a higher rate of climb, had cannons instead of .50 cal. MG's, and were flow by some of the best pilots the Soviets could muster. Kill ratios over Korea soared to 12-1 in favor of the Americans.

lol so much overconfidence and so little knowledge.

 

[ROMMEL34]

Stuff about the F117

A piece of **** 20 year old plane that should be replaced along with the B2 stealth bomber.

 

[BuddyLee]

Hmm, what about american capitalist quality? Gotta love it, crappy Lobos and Sparrows in Viet Nam. Priceless.

Have you ever heard of the Skyraider? It was only one of the most badass CAS aircraft of all time.

How about the B-52?

The Bell Cobra?

Oh, I might add that the B-1 is the pwnage. TY R.Reagan <3.

 

[Rss]

Have you ever heard of the Skyraider? It was only one of the most badass CAS aircraft of all time.

How about the B-52?

The Bell Cobra?

Oh, I might add that the B-1 is the pwnage. TY R.Reagan <3.

Ever heard of Ilyushin Il-2 "Sturmovik"? It was only one of the most basass CAS aircraft of all time.

How about the Tu-95?

The Yakovlev-9?

Oh, I might add that the Tu-160 is the pwnage. FYAD M.Gorbachev .

 

[Boogerhead]

]Oh, I might add that the Tu-160 is the pwnage. FYAD M.Gorbachev .

Umm. What? Are you citing the TU-160 as an example of the quality control? Perhaps you missed the crash of its kissing cousin/prototype. You know, the one that happened in public. At the Paris Air Show. When it killed a bunch of people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFk1K_USNGM

Ivan built some great aircraft (the MiG-29 has some features still lacking in Western aircraft), but the quality control was rarely there. Or perhaps you'd care to look at the MiG-25 recce version, which needed its engines replaced after every flight?

 

[BuddyLee]

Ever heard of Ilyushin Il-2 "Sturmovik"? It was only one of the most basass CAS aircraft of all time.

How about the Tu-95?

The Yakovlev-9?

Oh, I might add that the Tu-160 is the pwnage. FYAD M.Gorbachev .

Every craft you cited are substandard compared to the ones I posted... fail.

Skyraider > Sturmovik

P-47 = Sturmovik

Concord > Tu-160, Ruskie Pleaze.

P.S. I like how the Russians Copied bolt for bolt the B-29... gj guys... reverse engineering is way better than innovation.

 

[Rss]

Even Lex Luthor thinks that you're WROOOONG!

First of all, Tu-160 IS NOT comparable to Concorde. Con is civvy plane, and Tu-160 is a supersonic semi-stealth bomber. Tu-160 > Bone

I can't imagine what philosophy you have behind this undermining Sturmovik's legacy, but I'm sure it's bull.

I love how americans ***** how commies copied this and that, when they are incapable manufacturing many fine techs, developed by soviets.

And Boogerhead, what the **** are you talking about?
Tu-160 was a brand new a/c back then and this may be shock to you but it usually takes a few years, possibly even a decade to iron out bugs.

Engines replaced after every flight, lol? Proof? Only time I know engines need replacement is after prolonged mach 3+ level flight.

 

[{YBBS}Sage]

To be fair, Sparrows were forced into less-than-correct usage envelopes due to visual ROE.

All of Vietnam was a cluster****. "Ok, we're gonna stop bombing the enemy's capital, it's now OFF LIMITS." Don't blame the equipment, don't blame the troops. Blame the morons who were in charge.

Retarded ROE, half-assed equipment specifications (no built-in guns on the Phantoms!?! WTF were they thinking!?!) and on and on...

 

[Tomcat_ha]

Russia had 2 options either build very expensive engines which can last long on mach 3 flights or cheapass engines that can be easily replaced. The latter obviously fits more with Soviet strategy. This is no example of poor quality controll its a design feature.

Skyraider is more advanced than the il2. Il2 is from 1940 and the skyraider from 1945. Thats a big difference in terms of tech. I think the il10 beast is a better comparision as it is from about the same time as the skyraider.