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Level Design Why so many bad infantry maps?

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#41
First off Ambush is a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeery old custom map (first version is from way back in 1.1 I think) a map from the time when mapping for RO was a very new thing for most and mainly a learning experience.

For custom maps in general you should not put them down totally in an unconstructive way unless you can make one better yourself (as people have said)

But for new custom maps give constructive critisism so the mapper has a chance to learn and imporve (the map or himself for future maps)

But I can agree that not all customs are let's say that great but I simply avoid playing them if I dislike them. I do like almost all official maps however (maybe I'm biased).

(lastly I can't for the world undrstand why people port oldmaps instead of making new ones)
 
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#43
Fu. Svedberg said:
First off Ambush is a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeery old custom map (first version is from way back in 1.1 I think) a map from the time when mapping for RO was a very new thing for most and mainly a learning experience.

For custom maps in general you should not put them down totally in an unconstructive way unless you can make one better yourself (as people have said)

But for new custom maps give constructive critisism so the mapper has a chance to learn and imporve (the map or himself for future maps)

But I can agree that not all customs are let's say that great but I simply avoid playing them if I dislike them. I do like almost all official maps however (maybe I'm biased).

(lastly I can't for the world undrstand why people port oldmaps instead of making new ones)
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You don't have to be a chef to judge food.
 
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#44
I know It's odd for some of you to think of Orel as an infantry map, because it's so huge, but Orel gives me certain things in infantry combat that very few other maps (even Black July) give me. Because of the size, the higher inclination for teamwork, the penalty of dying (having to walk back to the engagement area) as well as offering greater possibilities and variety in combat, I think Orel is the best Infantry map ever. Berezina comes in second.
 
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#45
4th Reich said:
I know It's odd for some of you to think of Orel as an infantry map, because it's so huge, but Orel gives me certain things in infantry combat that very few other maps (even Black July) give me. Because of the size, the higher inclination for teamwork, the penalty of dying (having to walk back to the engagement area) as well as offering greater possibilities and variety in combat, I think Orel is the best Infantry map ever. Berezina comes in second.
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LOL! Come on now! Funny how Orel is the best infantry map that actually has I think zero infantrymen in it and all tankers/tank Comms & Tanks, yeah definitely the best infantry map ever! Also Lyes Krovy is the best tank map ever! Well I'm off now to check out the new update. Seacrest Out!
 
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#46
Quietus said:
LOL! Come on now! Funny how Orel is the best infantry map that actually has I think zero infantrymen in it and all tankers/tank Comms & Tanks, yeah definitely the best infantry map ever! Also Lyes Krovy is the best tank map ever! Well I'm off now to check out the new update. Seacrest Out!
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Hey now, don't you come on me! Orel does have infantry, and it's fun to play as infantry in that map. Although it's mostly tankers, I see a lot of potential in it as an infantry only map. By the way, Lyes Krovy is a terrible infantry map in my opinion.
 
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#47
Tak said:
Why do you talk about infantry maps, then list Orel as the best? If Orel is an infantry map, Rez is a sexy cheerleader.

And at least Rez tried.


Here's a tip: Vote for the maps you like. Live with the results if one you don't like wins. You can even go so far as *gasp* changing servers. Miracle of miracles!​
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He was referring to philosophy of map creation, not the actual map itself, you didn't read his post very well. As for his post, I generally have to agree, and unforunately if you're playing russians, the new danzig hits hard there.
 
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#50
An opinion on 'infantry maps':

I've been playing RO for about a month now, and the only factor I see affecting the 'quality' of infantry usage in the game is nothing more than the tactics being used. To be sure, some maps may lend themselves to linear play and at time it may very well hinge on who gets that MG to what trench first, or who can toss a grenade in what bunker at any given time. This is the gift (and curse) of games: the ability to replay a battle any number of times. IRL, unless you're faced with a Stalingrad or something of that magnitude, rarely will there be a pitched battle over the same piece of ground over and over again. (I mean, if a particular section of trench or a village is THAT much trouble, main forces would simply bypass it and call in an air strike or wait for follow-on forces to isolate it and mop up.)

The size of RO maps is what makes infantry somewhat 'less effective' in some cases, IMHO. What I mean is that with a total player capacity of 32, this give each side a force of 16 troops to conduct a battle; this is barely enough for three or four decent fire teams- and if there are tanks present this number drops even further as there are many who would rather ride than walk into battle. In any case, with an available battle force of half a platoon (not taking into account the number of available reinforcement respawns) a ground commander doesn't have many options on some of the maps. The age-old question arises: spread out and cover territory, or stick together for massed firepower? With such a limited force, maneuver battle ultimately becomes dependent on who controls what house or who can cover what wheat field with MG's; there's not a lot of room for using Real World infantry tactics.

OTOH, even with the force limitations at present, there is a lot of room for improvement in the usage of infantry forces in RO. There's no reason why a Squad Leader shouldn't be able to correctly employ his squad, especially if it's a part of an established regular group. This all boils down to communication and practice, practice, practice AND having a group of players who agree to play AS A GROUP and not as individuals. (CASE IN POINT: A few night ago I was on the Soviet side on the Konigsplatz map; within the first few minutes of getting my bearings and learning the ropes of being an infantryman- I'm usually a tanker- it was obvious that some of my teammates were a pretty well-drilled unit. They were talking, setting up each other for crossing open areas, calling out enemy locations, and all the things that infantrymen are supposed to do. At the same time, it was painfully obvious, too, that others were NOT in that group and were being cut to ribbons time and time again. Needless to say, I hooked up with the guys who knew what they were doing and managed to limit my own respawns to only a few- and this was the group that carried the brunt of the battle to the Germans that night.)
 
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#51
Karl said:
An opinion on 'infantry maps':

I've been playing RO for about a month now, and the only factor I see affecting the 'quality' of infantry usage in the game is nothing more than the tactics being used. To be sure, some maps may lend themselves to linear play and at time it may very well hinge on who gets that MG to what trench first, or who can toss a grenade in what bunker at any given time. This is the gift (and curse) of games: the ability to replay a battle any number of times. IRL, unless you're faced with a Stalingrad or something of that magnitude, rarely will there be a pitched battle over the same piece of ground over and over again. (I mean, if a particular section of trench or a village is THAT much trouble, main forces would simply bypass it and call in an air strike or wait for follow-on forces to isolate it and mop up.)

The size of RO maps is what makes infantry somewhat 'less effective' in some cases, IMHO. What I mean is that with a total player capacity of 32, this give each side a force of 16 troops to conduct a battle; this is barely enough for three or four decent fire teams- and if there are tanks present this number drops even further as there are many who would rather ride than walk into battle. In any case, with an available battle force of half a platoon (not taking into account the number of available reinforcement respawns) a ground commander doesn't have many options on some of the maps. The age-old question arises: spread out and cover territory, or stick together for massed firepower? With such a limited force, maneuver battle ultimately becomes dependent on who controls what house or who can cover what wheat field with MG's; there's not a lot of room for using Real World infantry tactics.

OTOH, even with the force limitations at present, there is a lot of room for improvement in the usage of infantry forces in RO. There's no reason why a Squad Leader shouldn't be able to correctly employ his squad, especially if it's a part of an established regular group. This all boils down to communication and practice, practice, practice AND having a group of players who agree to play AS A GROUP and not as individuals. (CASE IN POINT: A few night ago I was on the Soviet side on the Konigsplatz map; within the first few minutes of getting my bearings and learning the ropes of being an infantryman- I'm usually a tanker- it was obvious that some of my teammates were a pretty well-drilled unit. They were talking, setting up each other for crossing open areas, calling out enemy locations, and all the things that infantrymen are supposed to do. At the same time, it was painfully obvious, too, that others were NOT in that group and were being cut to ribbons time and time again. Needless to say, I hooked up with the guys who knew what they were doing and managed to limit my own respawns to only a few- and this was the group that carried the brunt of the battle to the Germans that night.)
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That is sweet! Hook me up with this group.
 
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#53
I like Lyes krovy (Les krovi :) ) sometimes its hard to win and teamplay needed there (for both sides) . Also I think that its balanced map, but does not fit for 16x16 players (imo 10x10 is the max for this map should be)


If 128x128, OREL would be good map, but 16x16 its more like Domination from UT99 w/o translocators but on weeeeeeeeeery big map.

p.s. And why author called Orel and Bondarevo infantry maps :)
 
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#55
I don't like those maps either. They're just too linear and repetitive.

LyesKrovy (sp?) for example is just run and gun with semi-auto rifles, gets unbelievably boring after a while.

For me a good infantry map needs to give the players a lot of options, with different hiding places and a feeling that you're actually somewhere in the real world, and not on a confined map in a game. I think the new Leningrad custom map is a very good example of an infantry map. It feels like you're actually in a real city, where you can walk in to almost every building and look out of almost every window. (Well that's atleast what I experianced when playing it.)
 
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#57
Dr. Peter Venkman said:
Odessa is probably one of the better infantry maps at the moment. That and Kaukasus.

I miss Berlin and Moscow Highway though.
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Kaukasus is too compact, axis team is too confined in capturing the objectives, making it all so easy for the Russians to spawncamp - spamnade - and camp their asses to in eternity. Especially when the Russians have 2 or 3 good, veteran players. Hey, Kaukasus is really just like Ambush when you look at the structure.

I liked Kaukasus in the mod-days for its atmosphere, but it is still poorly balanced. Maps need to be balanced in a game. No matter about realism. Realism should not intervere with a map's design concerning balance.

I agree on Odessa though.
 
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#60
im going to have to stand up and defend all the mappers out there in favor of close quarters fighting, because i am one of them:D . you have to remember that with maximum 16 players on each side, a gigantic map with infinite routes can get quite empty. part of the fun of online games (a big part at that) is feeling that you are surrounded by other people, not only your teammates, but enemies as well.

making smaller maps with a set number of routes is one way to maximize conflicts between groups of players, as well as to set up interesting combat situations that players will have a hard time bypassing. i find it somewhat annoyong to be playing on a huge map just waiting and waiting for someone to come my way. ww2ol was like that a lot, and frankly thats not the style of play i want for RO.

anyway, how can you object to maps with preset paths and confined spaces but still say odessa is a good map? that is basically trench warfare on a larger scale, with buildings forming the trench walls! you cant enter every building, and you have a very limited number of options in determining how you want to play the map.

the final issue with making huge maps with unlimited routes, aside from dispersing players and minimizing potential conflicts, is map performance. packing maps all open buildings that are totally enterable gives most machines a huge punch in the ovaries. its nice to see a map on a huge scale, but when you can only experience it at 25 fps or less, its just not that fun to play. as a result, mappers often resort to placing large, unenterable buildings around their maps, not only to save all the extra geometry and static mesh work that goes into making totally enterable buildings, but also to use as anti-portal containers to improve performance further.

as crazy as everyone is about "realism," you all must remember that a game world is, and will for a long time be, a world of constraints and limitations. there are only so many players a server can handle, only so many polygons a computer can render, and so on and so forth.

so before demanding that all maps be enormous cities where you can enter every building just like in the really real world, remember: THERE IS, AFTER ALL, A SPOON IN ONLINE GAMES.
 
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