King Tiger/Ferdinand/Elefants/Panthers (Merged)

[JudgeMental]

The way I understood it, the Russians were taught to attack this way, thats not to say they all did. Those who figured out a better way would tell others if they had more success with their own method. Its a fact that as in many things Russian doctrine was outdated its also a fact that people did improve on it.

By the way Donster
QUOTE"
I'm still waiting for one of you Nazi-philes (you know who you are!) to explain why you're constantly whining for the King Tiger but never ask for much more historically and numerically important vehicles like the Pz II or Pz 38(t).
We all know the reason- you just want a vehicle that will give you an advantage in-game. ."

I think I touched on the same thing in MY posts mate but no-one answered them

 

[Welt]

Why does every single thread conserning tanks etc. turn into total battlefield?

...Germany is superior....russians ****....more uber tanks....blah blah.

We need a real historian here, thats all i have to say.

 

[sander]

Tanks that must be ingame:
http://forgottenhope.bf1942files.com/main.php?module=vehicles&country=1&type=1&lang=english

http://forgottenhope.bf1942files.com/main.php?module=vehicles&country=5&type=1&lang=english

 

[Nebfer]

Maybe becuse to the avrage person the Panzer VIB Tiger II (aka King Tiger) is a lot more visable than the lowly Panzer IIF?


According to allied studys durring and after WW2 it seems airpower is vastly over rated, it seems that the british and US airforces only acheaved about a 5-10% kill rate. (out of 100 tanks destroyed only 5 to 10 where destroyed by the air.)

If the western allies where this "bad" than the germans and soviets where probly not much better off.

 

[Gunwing]

Ok for the sake of history lets just say the Russians had bad tatics. So what? that dose not mean that they all faught the same way and did not ventrue to improve on it. I mean give the USSR some intel points here.

At the start of the Winter War Russia had more planes and better planes than the Germans. Not to mention better pilots. Lets not forget the exelent records for the Yak-9 agnest German planes like the BF-109, and FW-190. Also the IL-2 was a slow but tough aircraft. So robust that the Russians and Germans both called it the "flying Tank."

I'm sorry but an aircraft with nick names like "Black Death", and "flying tank" seems to say to me that the Germans were getting their butts kicked by the IL-2. On top of that it also seems that things only get names like that for being deadly on the battlefield.

So if the Germans were not so worried about the IL-2 because it was only killing 5-15% of their ground vehicles then why did they give it these names? Sorry But I think you guys need to stop reading books from the sixtys and read some WW2 hsitory that was published some time around 2000.

BTW: sorry for that uncalled for insault. I just hate it when people use the old it's widely accepted crap. It reeks of some one who has no idea what they are talking about.

 

[JudgeMental]

Tanks that must be ingame:
http://forgottenhope.bf1942files.com/main.php?module=vehicles&country=1&type=1&lang=english

http://forgottenhope.bf1942files.com/main.php?module=vehicles&country=5&type=1&lang=english

Admirable though the list is mate, thats a HELL of a lot of tanks, APC's and trucks. It kind of changes the whole balance of the game. Its also enough work to require a sizeable team just for vehicles.

 

[KrazyKraut]

Forgotten Hope has a lot more emphasis on vehicles than RO, I don't think we need as many tanks in RO.

People are asking for King Tigers and the likes because those are simply a lot more impressive than Pz38(t), that's it.

 

[Crim]

Wait, since when did the Russian air force have better pilots than the Germans? Since when did they have better planes? The only thing the Soviet planes had going for them was numerical superiority, really. Other than that they were less-than-comparable with German contemporaries, and when you factor in the individual skill of pilots, you end up getting pilots such as Erich Hartmann achieving 345 Soviet aircraft kills over the course of the war.

Also, the Finns called the IL-2 the "crop duster". You can't really judge an aircraft's performance based on its nickname.

It's widely accepted that Soviet pilots were, on average, far worse than the Germans they were fighting. Again, the only advantage they really had was a large amount of aircraft.

Now, then. In regards to the Tiger II, I like how a lot of people say "don't add it it'll unbalance the game!!!!" and then people say "lol so much for your king tiger, take a look at THIS" and then copy/paste some account of a T-60 knocking out seventeen Tiger IIs in five minutes.

Which is it? If it was possible for a T-34 to knock out three king tigers, why can't we add it to the game? Obviously it won't unbalance anything, if there is historical proof of it being destroyed by something like a lowly T-34.

Tactics would succeed, as always. I also find it funny how most of the large historical tank maps in-game had Tiger IIs present, and yet most people say it was so rare that nobody ever saw it.

Only around 520 PzIIFs were constructed. 490 Tiger IIs were constructed.

Please stop saying "LOL WELL Y DONT U IMPLEMENT THE PZII I MEAN COME ON THE TIGER II WAS SO RARE NOBODY EVER SAW IT" when you fail to take in to account the fact that a lot of German tanks didn't have very high production rates.

Also, I'd like some earlier-war Russian tanks as well. Considering both variants of the T-34 in game were produced in 1943 or later, the IS-2 being '44-'45, the SU76 being mainly produced in 1944 (I like how a lot of people say it was an early war tank), the T-60 mainly being 1942, the KV1S being '42-'43, and the BA-64B produced after 1943.

The Soviets have their big late-war tank in the IS-2. Why can't the Germans?

(just for the record, I won't be happy until Tripwire introduces the Hetzer)

 

[JudgeMental]

Just to get serious for a minute. While I take Raks point that these were more or less the only types of tank being produced by the end of the war, the numbers when compared to Russian tanks are frighteningly unbalanced, and remember that these numbers weren't just fighting the Russians, they were also fighting the Brits and Americans. In other words those FEW tanks were split against 3 foes while the Russian ones were just fighting 1 enemy.

Comparison

T34/85 Production
1944 10615
1945 21108

IS2 Production
1943 35
1944 2210
1945 1150

Tiger 1 Production
1944 623

Tiger2 Production
1944 377
1945 100

JagdPanther Production
1944 226
1945 198

Panther Production
1943 1768
1944 3777
1945 439


All this brings me back to my earlier somewhat light hearted post that to give a degree of historical balance there would be maybe 1 of each variant (Tiger2 and JagdPanther) available in a map and it could give an undignified and very un-wermacht like rush to get to the uber weapon.

My source for this information: http://dictionary.laborlawtalk.com/World_War_II in the interests of balance feel free to quote any others.

In addition to my last:
Hetzer Production
1944 1687
1945 1335

It is far more relevent to include the Hetzer in game due to its production run, its far more relevent than the Tiger2........but far less sexy.
I apologise for quoting myself here but I was beginning to think that no-one was actually looking at the figures

 

[thedonster]

In addition to my last:
Hetzer Production
1944 1687
1945 1335

It is far more relevent to include the Hetzer in game due to its production run, its far more relevent than the Tiger2........but far less sexy.
I apologise for quoting myself here but I was beginning to think that no-one was actually looking at the figures

I agree the Hetzer would be an appropriate (and fun) addition. Much more so than the Jagpanther.
Note the Hetzer was built on the Pz 38(t) chassis.

 

[Afterburner]

The Hetzer and SU-85 would be my choices for the next couple of vehicles to be added. Either those or some early war tanks, which are my favorite. Maybe have some Panzer II vs BT-7 battles?

 

[COOL SHADOW]

I want the Kingtiger and the Jagdpanther in the game, too! You have my vote.

and if somebody says this is a "

 

[JudgeMental]

I want the Kingtiger and the Jagdpanther in the game, too! You have my vote.

and if somebody says this is a "

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

the reason the Tiger II should be added is because most of our late war maps (offical maps) had the Tiger II in them. Yet in game the germans dont Get the Tiger II instead they get a panther or a TigerI. How would you "pro-Soviet" guys like it if they took out the T-34/85 and put the 76 in it place?

 

[Zbojnik]

Ok for the sake of history lets just say the Russians had bad tatics. So what? that dose not mean that they all faught the same way and did not ventrue to improve on it. I mean give the USSR some intel points here.

At the start of the Winter War Russia had more planes and better planes than the Germans. Not to mention better pilots. Lets not forget the exelent records for the Yak-9 agnest German planes like the BF-109, and FW-190. Also the IL-2 was a slow but tough aircraft. So robust that the Russians and Germans both called it the "flying Tank."

I'm sorry but an aircraft with nick names like "Black Death", and "flying tank" seems to say to me that the Germans were getting their butts kicked by the IL-2. On top of that it also seems that things only get names like that for being deadly on the battlefield.

So if the Germans were not so worried about the IL-2 because it was only killing 5-15% of their ground vehicles then why did they give it these names? Sorry But I think you guys need to stop reading books from the sixtys and read some WW2 hsitory that was published some time around 2000.

BTW: sorry for that uncalled for insault. I just hate it when people use the old it's widely accepted crap. It reeks of some one who has no idea what they are talking about.

I'm no expert on WWII aircraft but I knew a guy who was conscripted into the German army in WWII. He told stories of 15 Russian planes turning tail and running at the sight of a single German fighter. From what I know German pilots far surpassed Russian in quality. I know the Forgotten Soldier isn't the best book to quote, but he also mentions all those Russian IL-2's turning and running at the sight of a few Fw-190's.

 

[Maschine Pistole-38]

the reason the Tiger II should be added is because most of our late war maps (offical maps) had the Tiger II in them. Yet in game the germans dont Get the Tiger II instead they get a panther or a TigerI. How would you "pro-Soviet" guys like it if they took out the T-34/85 and put the 76 in it place?

Because unlike the T34/85, the King Tiger had a production number of about 380 from Jan to Dec 1944. Compare that to 3,700 Panthers 3,000 PzIV's 3,800 StuGs and 400-600 Tigers - these are numbers for 1944 alone.

The only impact a King Tiger would have on RO is more whining and *****ing on the forums. 'Oh my god, my cannon fired at a T34 at a range of atleast 2000 meters and it didn't die. Plz fix the King Tiger' or 'No wai, I died from a frontal shot against a IS2, devs fix the tank'

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

If its not portayed correctly then I am with these so-called whinners.
Nothing should penetrate the frontal armor (except artillery) but the rest is fair game (sides/rear). In fact some T-34/85s killed a Tiger II from the side in an account posted here earlier by someone. Now for its massive 88mm KwK 43 L71 tank gun there is no reason I should state it was one of the most powerful guns of WW2 .So there is no reason for it to deflect or not to kill a tin can with only 45mm of hull armor when its predesesor killed it with great ease at ranges of 3900 meters.

As for production its been explained many times that in the late war the Tiger II's were sent everywhere on the Eastern front. They served in most battles from 1944-1945. So to the Soviets they were a pretty common sight. There are also more TigerII's than our current StugIII F/8 and PanzerIV F2/F1 yet no one complains about that. Another way to combat this would be limited spawn based on the (reallife) numbers of Tiger II's serving in the peticular battle. Which would limit the amount of TigerII's forceing the Germans to use tactics and Teamwork to keep the Tiger II alive.

-I really dont see a problem with this tank being added.
1. limited spawn
2. side armor was able to be penetrated
3.It was realistic to have Tiger II's especially on most official late war maps

 

[Maus]

Err... you might want to google for a little aircraft called "IL-2", she was king of tank busting in WWII, not the Stuka, which was actually very poor at that role.

And before you mention the big cannon Stuka, there was a big cannon IL-2 aswell, and it was still faster, better armoured, held more ammo, and could still carry rockets and bombs, and it predated the Stuka G.

And ofcourse the Yak-9T.

Ivan and the black death was king of air to ground tank busting, not the Gerries.


And tank busting with bombs is more effective than you seem to imply, you put 200 Kg of high explosives anywhere near a tank, and thats a mobillity kill at the very least.

I know of the IL-2 strumovik, and they too came in low and slow to shoot out some enemy tanks so we WOULD have to see them for air support to be a viable idea... And not to start yet another branch arguement in this thread, but the stuka was, you're right, not a tank buster but a tactical strike craft and it excelled at that job...

But, that DIDN'T stop the stuka from repeatedly, successfully, taking out enemy tanks. The Stuka while not as heavily armoured as the IL-2, was around the same speed. And it's pilots enjoyed better training, an accurate bombsight, and a reputation that struck fear into any ground forces that heard it's wailing siren... The stuka was a WWII success story, and heavily influenced the design ot the American A-10 Warthog.

With the IL-2, you saw it coming... low, slow, and had time to react. But with the stuka it would unexpectedly fall from the sky, siren blaring. You can imagine how it got it's reputation. And although not in a bomber variant, it's not hard to imagine how the biggest ace of WWII history got to where he was flying a stuka. "Whistling Death"

And the Germans had plenty of their own IL-2 type aircraft. Bf-110 tactical variants, Ju-88 tactical variants, Hs-129 tank busters, the Hs-123 tactical biplanes, and of course the Fw-190 tactical assault aircraft...

Any way you slice it the Tiger would have to hae a counter, whatever it might be. The easiest counter to add would be to simply make it, like you said in the other Tiger thread, that the T-34s spawn far more quickly and more often then the Tiger or King Tiger. Any of these rare tanks should only spawn a couple of times over the entire round.

Looking at certain engagements the Royal Tiger was involved in, it's respawn time should directly effect the amount of KT's at that actual battle.

Artillery just falls randomly in a general area, but airstrikes would somewhat follow the target(wouldn't be spot on every time). It would be much better at taking out enemy tanks.

Ya, one would sure as hell think so... But having laser guided rockets fall on you from nowhere would kill this game.

 

[Crim]

Oh, Hans-Ulrich Rudel. You were the most decorated soldier of WWII, having flown over 2,500 sorties ending in the destruction of nearly 2000 ground targets, 519 of which were tanks. You sank a battleship, a destroyer, and two cruisers. Stalin even put a 100,000 ruble bounty on your head.

You were also an utter Nazi. You volunteered to fly your plane in to Berlin to rescue Hitler, condemned the staff officers of the Wermacht for not seeing Adolf's genius in warfare, became a candidate for the Deutsche Reichspartei, and claimed that all frontline soldiers would have been willing to fight the Bolsheviks again because Germany's living space was in the East.

 

[Maschine Pistole-38]

As for production its been explained many times that in the late war the Tiger II's were sent everywhere on the Eastern front .They served in most battles from 1944-1945.So to the Soviets they were a pretty common sight. There are also more TigerII's than our current StugIII F/8 and PanzerIV F2 and F1. Yet no one complains about that.

The F/8 is equally comparable to the G version of the StuG. They both have the 80mm frontal armor and L/48 cannon. The only difference is the late model cupola and side skirts. The PzIVF2 is also comparable to the early models of the PzIVG, but now that we have the PzIVH you CAN now compare the F2 to the early Gs while saying the late Gs are now the PzIVHs. The F1 is also the highest produced PzIV with the short cannon, the comparable D and E versions stopped production before the invasion of the Soviet Union. You must also remember, the PzIV in the early part of the war was to support the PzIII's. Which we already see in RO.

Another way to combat this would be limited spawn based on the (reallife) numbers of Tiger II's serving in the peticular battle.Which would limit the amount of TigerII's forceing the Germans to use tactics and Teamwork to keep the Tiger II alive.

We don't see limited spawns even for tanks like the Tiger and IS-2. What makes you think they would do that for the King Tiger? Even if they do have limited respawns, would one or two be enough? Or will they have to compensate for stupid players who waste the King Tiger?

At this time it would be much better to stick to much more common tanks and tank destroyers.