King Tiger/Ferdinand/Elefants/Panthers (Merged)

[Field Marshal Rommel]

To those of you whom think the TigerII was a absurdly slow moving tank and suffered from poor mobility:

The Tiger II's Mobility:

Numerous statements have been made that the Tiger II was too heavy, too big, too slow, "a casemate", etc. One is left with the impression that it was lucky to move at all. These banal generalities, stated as incontrovertible facts, are never substantiated by actual specifications, test reports or after-action accounts from the units that used the Tiger II. In spite of these frequently repeated remarks, the capability of the Tiger II to negotiate obstacles and cross terrain was equivalent to or better than most German and allied tanks.

TigerII's Speed:
Road: 35-38km/h
Cross-Country: 17km/h

Tiger I Speed:
Road 38km/h
Cross-Country 10-20km/h

As you can plainly see the Tiger II was about as fast as its predessor.

 

[karl stiner]

lol theres 500 king tigers .. but only about 138 panzer 4's. yes its true, the v of the panzer 4 we have now, only 138 were ever produced. the h version comin out in the patch had a few thousand produced.. but my point still stands, if 138 is enough to make a panzer 4, then 500 is enought to make a king tiger.

now the reason these "cant" be put in, according to most people is that it will cause an imballance. well umm, that ballance is supposed to be made up by the fact that the russians had HORDES not an even ammount of soldiers as the gerrie team. teams should be more like 12-20 on tank maps. if teams were imballanced like that, the king tiger would have alot more tanks to slay...

yes dont worry the king tiger will be in the game on custom maps if people dont wont it they dont have to play the map

 

[Maus]

The Tiger II's Mobility:

While that is a good quote and gives credit to the Royal Tigers mobility, a source would be nice .


EDIT: Oh, and that's regarding how manueverable it was, not it's speed... The King Tiger wasn't a fast tank, but it wasn't slow either. And was in fact faster, off road then the Tiger I by roughly 2 kilometers per hour (18 on tiger I to 20 on tiger II).

And when it comes to cost, the King tiger didn't cost much more then a Tiger I. Yet was miles ahead of it in terms of technology, firepower, armour protection, mobility, and just a tad ahead of it in speed.

It's real, crippling downsides were it's high maintenance cost, and high fuel consumption...

 

[karl stiner]

I think players would love the {King Tiger} & the {Jagdpanther.} even the russin side i think would have fun trying to kill those tanks. It would be real that wat this game all about.it would give those russins tanks crew heartattack when thay saw those tanks just like back then. Teamwork would be a must on the russin side like this game was made to be played.

yes but they will have su152 and su100 they can kill a king tiger from the side

 

[thedonster]

I think players would love the {King Tiger} & the {Jagdpanther.} it would give those russins tanks crew heartattack when thay saw those tanks just like back then.

You just don't get it do you? The point is the Russians didn't see them at all for the most part, because they were vanishingly rare. Most of the fewer than 500 KT's produced were used on the Western front. They barely saw any action at all on the Eastern front. They're just an historical footnote. Do really need to alter game balance that much for a weapon that was produced in miniscule numbers and barely saw any service in the east?

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

Here's my sources:
achtungpanzer.com
Fprado.com
I would have added these in if I had enough time to edit my post -lol

You just don't get it do you? The point is the Russians didn't see them at all for the most part, because they were vanishingly rare. Most of the fewer than 500 KT's produced were used on the Western front. They barely saw any action at all on the Eastern front. They're just an historical footnote. Do really need to alter game balance that much for a weapon that was produced in miniscule numbers and barely saw any service in the east?

Most of them were in the Eastern front it was the western front that saw almost none of them they even defened Berlin!! You should read about 1944-1945 Eastern font battles !

Historical footnote? No the King Tiger was the best tank of ww2 it striked fear in the hearts of the Soviet soliders and lifted the low morale of the German solider. It was also a standard of what a modern tank would be. Historical foot note would be a better summary of the IS-2 since it didnt see much in the way of combat.

 

[thedonster]

Stop hating on the king tiger...
P

I don't hate the King Tiger. I'm just sick of people constantly whining "we need the King Tiger, blah, blah, blah" when it was so rare and of no real historical significance. It's just about getting a better tank for yourself during the game, which is not what RO is about.
Like I've said before, why aren't you campaining for inclusion of the Pz II or Pz38(t)? Numerically and historically they were much miore important.

 

[Maus]

You just don't get it do you? The point is the Russians didn't see them at all for the most part, because they were vanishingly rare. Most of the fewer than 500 KT's produced were used on the Western front. They barely saw any action at all on the Eastern front. They're just an historical footnote. Do really need to alter game balance that much for a weapon that was produced in miniscule numbers and barely saw any service in the east?

Quit your babbling. The 500 KT's produced saw most of their action in the course of about > 1 year. While there were about 1150 tiger I's (off the top of my head) produced that saw action with the German military for 3+ years (although not many produced in '42).

Now that means that 500 KT's were spit out in about a year, to see action on both fronts of the war... That's a lot of tanks. especially on an ever diminishing front(s) as the war dragged on.

I could go much further, but the point IS that the Tiger II wasn't some ghost on the battlefield... in the final stages of the war the Tiger II was THE beast on the battlefield and by no means was it just a once in a long while did a russian come across one.

The Tiger II saw a lot of action through out the end of the war... one of the most noteable, is Berlin. A King Tiger really should be sitting in Konigsplatz right now... Not it's little brother.

The King Tiger and Jagd panthers were major players in the Germans armoured divisions, especially the Tiger.

Of course, I'd really like to see a jagdpanzer in game before a jagdpanther... as it was much more frequent, and quite a beast itself.

 

[Afterburner]

If the KT and Jagdpanther are included then you HAVE to include the SU-152 and air support. It would be irresponsible not to. Even better if you include the Russian superiority in numbers as well.

Edit: I decided to do some more research into the King Tiger. Naturally I go to wikipedia first since Wiki is sort of like a hub of information, and could link me to alot of other places. And there I read this.

It was first used on the Eastern Front on 12 August 1944 with "schwere Panzer Abteilung 501" in the fighting at the Soviets' Baranov bridgehead over the Vistula River. In this action, a single Soviet T-34-85 under the command of Guards Lieutenant Oksin from the 53rd Guards Tank Brigade knocked out three Tiger IIs by firing at their sides from an ambush position.

So much for your King Tiger.

 

[Maus]

So much for your King Tiger.

the su-152? It was an assault gun not a tank killer but sure, the su series should get in game as well... the german counterparts to the su-152 were the Sturmtiger and the Brummbaer. But NO to air support... at least not for a while, and not player manned air support.

as for your quote, yes that was a famous ambush and a horrible loss for the germans. the t-34 was in the trees well camo'd. It flamed 1 tiger and disabled the two others i believe.

And if you want an impressive action, check this out. From achtung panzer. An action by Karl Koerner.


"On the road from Bollersdorf to Strausberg stood a further 11 Stalin tanks, and away on the egde of the village itself were around 120-150 enemy tanks in the process of being refuelled and re-armed. I opened fire and destroyed first and last of the 11 Stalin tanks on the road....My own personal score of enemy tanks destroyed in this action was 39."

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

As for counters to the "SU" series dont forget the Ferdinand/Elefant which served on the Easteren front from 1943-1945. They even served in Berlin.

 

[Zbojnik]

All wants best tanks of ww2 to play with. Hows this game going gold without the {King Tiger} & the {Jagdpanther} Russin side has best allied tanks and the axis should have the best tanks too.Lots more people would buy this game if had those tanks in game. Like il-2 forgotten battles & pacific fighters merged lots of planes. With those the biggest badest tanks of ww2 in this game would shine brighter {WOW}

Then where is the SU-85,100, 122,152, ISU-122 and ISU-152? Those are some really good Russian tanks that should be in the game.

 

[Afterburner]

But NO to air support... at least not for a while, and not player manned air support.

Oh, there most defintly needs to be air support if there is ever a King Tiger, it has to be in THE SAME update. Air support was the main way to take out those late war heavy tanks, so for the sake of realism AND balance, it would have to be included.

But yeah, defintly not player manned. I'm thinking have it so that the squad leader places his binocs on the the tank it marks that particular tank and the air support sort of follows it in.

And quite honestly I don't find it that amazing that they were able to engage that many tanks. I assume that report is of a King Tiger or Tiger so it isn't really that big of a deal. A single Abrams for instance could enage even more enemy tanks then that at even longer range, so when I first heard about the amazing kill ratios the Abrams would get during the Gulf wars I wasn't all that amazed. Now if a T-72 knocks out an Abrams, then that is when I am amazed.

 

[Grobut]

Gas shortages and what engine problems are players lasting that long in game nobody tanks breaking down or running out of gas in game.This game not playing a campaign.this is all online battles fast paced fighting.We the buyers, thay make the money we play this game and if lots of players like to have those great tanks that was part of the war back then. I play il-2 forgotten battles too thay have the fw d-9 not too many made too but its there and the me 262 not many made its there to fly and so on thay give the players chance to fly them.Thay didnt say thay didnt put those planes in game because of gas shortages. {King Tiger} & the {Jagdpanther} has made history back then and all knows that thay was the biggest badest tanks back in ww2.Say not even sides with those tanks in game. The russia tanks my have too fight like back then real thay have to gang up on them

Ohh please dont remind me.. every game you enetered, there would be 10 262's buzzing around, you'd bloody well think they where the only plane the Germans ever made

That really helped kill IL2 for me, the only thing you ever saw flying was experimental

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

Oh, there most defintly needs to be air support

Its funny how when the King Tiger is mentioned everyone wants air support
you do remember that the Germans dominated the skies until early* 1944 all maps from 1941-1945(yes 1945 the Germans still had airplanes many flew in defense of Berlin although it was a futile gesture) should have German airsupport although it should deteriorate as the late war grinds on.

* In Kursk(1943) the Soviet airforce meet the German airforce on somewhat equal ground it was not until a little later in early 1944 that the Soviets became the dominant force of the skies.This was meet by the luftwaffe throwing most of its force in the defense of the East.

 

[Maus]

As for counters to the "SU" series dont forget the Ferdinand/Elefant which served on the Easteren front from 1943-1945. They even served in Berlin.

Naw, by counterpart i meant the most similiar vechiles in the german arsenal. the ferdinand/elefant was a tank destroyer, not an assaualt gun so it most definately not the su-152s german counterpart .

Oh, there most defintly needs to be air support if there is ever a King Tiger, it has to be in THE SAME update. Air support was the main way to take out those late war heavy tanks, so for the sake of realism AND balance, it would have to be included.

Somewhere down the road air support might be feasible. It's much more plausible and easy for the devs to add the Tiger II then to wait til theres air support modelled...

Think about it, first they'd have to model the planes (which is much more complicated then modelling tanks i'd have to say), then they'd have to model their behavior, their target aquisition data, oh just a whole mess of stuff let's just say so that these planes look real and act real.

Then there'd have to be freaking anti-aircraft guns modelled for each side, and once more a system for calling on such air support... called in the same way as arty i guess, but in the time it takes a map to end i doubt the planes would get from their fictional airbases to the battlefield in time, it's not instant like arty...

then what if german and russian aircraft encounter each other?

it's just not feasible right now, but that's no reason NOT to add the King Tiger... You'd just have to figure out a way to kill it, other then park in front of it and hit it and hope you somehow some way kill it.

Now if a T-72 knocks out an Abrams, then that is when I am amazed.

the T-72 is more then capable of taking out an abrams. It's just that the T-72s the americans run into are basic export packages (that is no where near the capabilities of the Russian service T-72s, when it comes to equipment and armour), with poorly trained crews... And, abrams have been lost to T-72's in Iraq, just not often.

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

Naw, by counterpart i meant the most similiar vechiles in the german arsenal. the ferdinand/elefant was a tank destroyer, not an assaualt gun so it most definately not the su-152s german counterpart .

*wipes single tear away* thats my favorite "tank" (tank destroyer)

Think about it, first they'd have to model the planes

Yeah if they do they better model more German planes than the Me-109 E (static mesh) of a JU-87 D-1 (also in game) for some reason its always put in the German side as if they were the only planes they ever made!

 

[Afterburner]

Somewhere down the road air support might be feasible. It's much more plausible and easy for the devs to add the Tiger II then to wait til theres air support modelled...

Think about it, first they'd have to model the planes (which is much more complicated then modelling tanks i'd have to say), then they'd have to model their behavior, their target aquisition data, oh just a whole mess of stuff let's just say so that these planes look real and act real.

Then there'd have to be freaking anti-aircraft guns modelled for each side, and once more a system for calling on such air support... called in the same way as arty i guess, but in the time it takes a map to end i doubt the planes would get from their fictional airbases to the battlefield in time, it's not instant like arty...

then what if german and russian aircraft encounter each other?

Your kidding right? It doesn't have to be NEARLY that complicated. You simply click on the target, radio it in, and then watch as some rockets come in or bombs hit. You don't have to even model the aircraft. If you abosolutely want to you could model the aircraft and then have it just fly by in a straight path, nothing fancy.

It doesn't have to be a friggen flight simulator. If you really want AA you just have automated AA fire go up(they can be sitting outside the map) and then have a random chance of the aircraft getting shot down.

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

Seems like an easy to be abused idea. A simple click and the entire German or Soviet team is gone. If the aircraft were modeled then there would be a chance of shooting them down or pilot error ect. also it would cheapen airsupport to nothing more than fancy artillery. My suggestion would be some kind of "smart" bot that would man the aircraft and fly around shooting enemy tanks and airplanes and it could also respond to radio requests depending of the situatuion.
This would add the need for flak guns and flakpanzers to shoot down enemy aircraft enriching the game a bit.

Now that I think about it. If the Ro devs wanted to put in airforce support wouldn't they have modeled the anti-aircraft machinguns used on top of the tanks commander's cupola?

 

[Maus]

Your kidding right? It doesn't have to be NEARLY that complicated. You simply click on the target, radio it in, and then watch as some rockets come in or bombs hit. You don't have to even model the aircraft. If you abosolutely want to you could model the aircraft and then have it just fly by in a straight path, nothing fancy.

It doesn't have to be a friggen flight simulator. If you really want AA you just have automated AA fire go up(they can be sitting outside the map) and then have a random chance of the aircraft getting shot down.

Ya, so some random bombs or rockets fall from the sky instantly.

That's not air support, that's artillery! We HAVE artillery...

Air support won't be in for a loooooooooong time. But the King Tiger could be in soon. And it should be.