Spawn Camping/Supression

[Phoenix-D]

KrasniOctober, the Central Yard objective.

Please tell me how you can reasonably defend that without exit camping? They literally exit from their spawn right into the objective, and many Germans players don't even do that- they sit on the exit ridge and fire from there.

 

[Theodrake]

I think Heinz said it the best..

It goes without saying, we all know that you do not kill in spawn.. whether or not they just appeared or have been standing there for awhile.. shooting/attacking into spawn is a big no-no.

There are at least two maps that I believe were designed with spawn camping in mind. First why did the designer of the map put that back enterance behind the 2nd line and not add spawn protection? On Orel (all versions) the designer deliberately put a radio overlooking the first spawn. I know for sure on the russian side (I haven't found the one on the german side yet) has a sandbag setup so you are protected from attacks from within the spawn area. So if the russians fail to provide security by guarding their bridges, or at least blowing them, the designer made it so getting out of spawn is very difficult.

Last nite on Oral88v76 a teamate and I went around the german far right flank and crossed over the Russian bridge. I blew the bridge and then we proceded to shoot a lot of russian tanks up the old ying yang. Eventually the other tank moved over to spawn and started spraying down the spawners. I got on public and asked the admin if this was allowed or not. He never answered. And eventually somebody got into a tank and took out the spawn camper. Again the designer deliberately didn't add spawn protection. If you don't like it, don't play on that map or provide some security to protect your rear echelon.

 

[Murphy]

KrasniOctober, the Central Yard objective.

Please tell me how you can reasonably defend that without exit camping?

Exit camping is perfectly valid in my opinion. The maps are mostly linear so it doesn

 

[Leo]

Let me give you an idea why some exit camping in Central is ok and some is unsportsmanlike:



Scenario 1: (German is G, Russian is R, Building/wall is =, open space is _)

______============_CENTRAL YARD


________________________R__
=======WALL==========__HILL__========WALL====_____HILL_____

<---- TO PETROL
==========building===========____________G_SPAWN




This russian like to hug the wall/hill and kill germans as they crest the hill / jump over him trying to get to Central. Germans cannot see the russian because he is lying underneath the hill waiting for the spawning germans to run over. The only reason the russian is lying in wait here is because the Germans cannot see him, and he can therefore get uncontested kills. The germans must first die in order know to nade this area, and cannot really shoot the russian in question.




Scenario 2: (German is G, Russian is R, Building/wall is =, open space is _)

_____R============_CENTRAL YARD


=======WALL==========__HILL__========WALL====_____HILL_____

<---- TO PETROL
==========building===========____________G_SPAWN



This russian is using the building/sandbags/truck for cover. He is in the central yard capping area and is picking some germans off as they crest the hill to try and cap central yard. Not only is he a warm ruskie body in the cap zone protecting from rushing germans, he is surpressing germans as they leave the spawn area. He can be both seen and avoided by a skilled player, and although he is protecting against a known area of threat, he isn't hidden from the first german he is shooting at.


Are you (those of you who believe any kind of surpression is fine) seriously telling me that Scenario 1 is acceptable? That the only reason the ruskie is lying in wait underneath the hill is because the german team isn't good enough to keep him away? Or that as long as it is possible one of out three rounds it shouldn't bother anyone?

I personally engage in Scenario 2 type actions, and always avoid doing Scenario 1, merely because of good sportsmanship, but that is irrelevant to the discussion.

I'm also not saying I cannot cope equally with both situations, I'm stating that one is decidely more annoying than the other, requires a lot less skill, and is very unsportsman-like.

There were times in the mod days that this behaviour was rampant. It made me stop playing. Some of you may say good riddance , but I play this game to be entertained, to be tested and to have fun. I don't play this game to continaully spawn, run over a hill, die, attempt to nade some spawn-exit camping greife-players, maybe play for a couple minutes, die, find myself back at spawn and AGAIN die to the greifer.

Not to get off topic, but that was the very reason why I don't play UT2K4 onslaught (tank sniping every spawn), or BF2 (planes bombing the major spawn areas but never capping) anymore. The game becomes a grind and a waste of time.

 

[REZ]

KrasniOctober, the Central Yard objective.

Please tell me how you can reasonably defend that without exit camping? They literally exit from their spawn right into the objective, and many Germans players don't even do that- they sit on the exit ridge and fire from there.

I dont know if you are addressing me, but I will say that I personally wait till they get down from those ridges. I dont throw nades up there or over into their spawn area... I dont shoot them while they are up on that ridge unless, like you said, they are camped up there (which is a ridiculous place to stop if you ask me... two more steps and they could be in the capzone and under cover.).

Whats wrong with people that they cant even wait till the other team has made it onto the field of battle before they are trying to kill them (if even just a short way onto the field)? Throwing nades into spawn/sending arty down right on the spawn area, or spraying the only possible exit... its like coming down to my locker room door and tackling me before I can even make it on to the field and line up for a play (small American football reference there). It's weak, shows no skill, and loudly shouts that you cant win unless you resort to cheap tactics.

Again, I dont think exit camping is as absolutely wrong as killing in spawn.. it could just be some nincompoop who is bored and having fun being a pain in everyones ass, and not someone trying to win a match that way, this I know. But then again, the way I look at it is there are people from around the world who are here to enjoy themselves, and intentionally trying to ruin ones fun shows little to no class. Sportsmanship and mutual respect go a long way.

@Murphy- it's said this way.. 'Do unto others as you would have them do to you' and its a very important thing to keep in mind when dealing with other people.. safely gaming behind your monitor or not. Thanks for making that point.

 

[Solo4114]

I wouldn't say you need to actually exit camp on Krasnyi. Plus, that map's well designed enough that there are approximately FOUR exits for the Germans from their primary spawn. You can go around the rubble hill in the far right, the boxes at the far left, or over the two walls towards the center. It's a lot harder to lock down that many approaches, and the enemy can't get INTO that area either (although tossing nades in is kinda lame).

What I'm talking abotu with exit camping is, for example, there being ONE long alleyway out of a spawn and that's it, no cover whatsoever, and the enemy has several places where he can dig in.

Think about the relative advantages and disadvantages here.


The people spawning are (a) disoriented upon spawning, (b) have only one exit to even get to the field, and (c) have to choose between remaining a moving (harder to hit) target or being stationary to try to take out the enemy. Meanwhile, the people exit camping are entrenched, probably prone or obscured by an obstacle, stationary and thus harder to spot, and have their weapons rested and trained on the exit.

Tell me. What kind of challenge is it to kill the spawning players in a situation like that? Me, I WANT a challenge, but not an insurmountable one. Being the player exit camping is NO challenge. It's a cakewalk. Being the players spawning IS a challenge, but (depending on the map) can be a largely insurmountable and certainly frustrating one.



As for the specific maps mentioned (Orel and Berezina_beta_3), I think I can answer the "Well, they MUST have wanted us to spawn/exit camp or else they'd have stopped us."

Orel was a beta map itself. It's also a long-range tank engagement. It was not a finished product, and last I heard, the mapper wanted to fix things about it but ended up not fixing them. Orel76v88 was simply a modification of the existing map, and thus was simply modifying a beta. I doubt the authors expected people to get close enough to the spawns to arty-strike them, and to the extent they did, I suspect they figured the map would be over in a matter of minutes if not seconds.

Berezina_beta_3 has the back door to the tunnel complex at the 2nd line NOT to allow the Germans to sneak in the back, but to allow the RUSSIANS who have already spawned to retreat in cover to the village. If that tunnel didn't exist, the Russians would have to go over the hill of what is likely an already overrun position, thereby exposing themselves to fire and taking yet more casualties. What's more, the author has added spawn protection of some kind to the next version SPECIFICALLY in response to the bulls**t tactics that some players were using of actually going in and spawn killing.


As for the "You actually think about other peoples' feelings in the game? HAHA!!", yeah, I actually do. I wouldn't want it done to me, so I extend the same courtesy to them. The only saving grace is that MOST maps are designed well enough that this isn't a problem. Usually the exits are covered enough to get you close to the main area, or have enough cover to let one or two guys try to defend the exits from exit campers. But for those maps that don't, exit camping is still lame and self-centered. Not to mention boring for some of YOUR teammates. What about the people actually defending AT the objectives who would love to get a good fight going, but can't because of one or two exit campers locking the enemy team in?


Sorry, but I just take a VERY dim view of people who use this. In clan matches, sure, all bets are off (which is a big part of why I don't play clan matches). But on public servers? It's just lame and really doesn't speak well of the player on a lot of levels.

 

[Mr._Kong]

Hi I am Mr. Kong, and I support exit camping.

 

[REZ]

We are not surprised.

 

[Leo]

We are not surprised.

^^^ LMAO

 

[Vader]

Hi I am Mr. Kong, and I support exit camping.

LOL BRILLLIANT! I support exit camping too, as a matter of fact, I have done it everytime I have been in a server for the last two weeks! MEEEEOOOOOWWWWWWW

 

[Teufel Hund]

WHAT I REALLY HATE IS PEOPLE WHO CONTINUALLY ARTY SPAWN EXIT AREAS

LAME UNIMAGINATIVE EXPLOITATIVE AND BORING.

especially when u warn everyone and they still go sit on the ridge waiting to die. lol

What officer would not call down arty on an enemy staging area if he had the chance to? Sure it ****s to be on the receiving end of it. But I feel that it's a valid and authentic tactic.

The problem here is map design. Arty needs to be limited, and spawn areas need to be hard to get within sight of.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

spawn camping isnt really possible in this game , that is when you spawn and are shot before you can even move. camping the exits to the spawn is not a bad thing because there are enough that its not that hard to get out if you just shoot the frikken morons who are camping it and use your head to get out .. and some nades... usualy the enemy undercamps on and makes it easier to get out thatone ... theres always a way to win..

 

[Mr._Kong]

We are not surprised.

I know you love me REZ.

 

[IncredibleGeek]

What officer would not call down arty on an enemy staging area if he had the chance to? Sure it ****s to be on the receiving end of it. But I feel that it's a valid and authentic tactic.

The problem here is map design. Arty needs to be limited, and spawn areas need to be hard to get within sight of.

Just because you can call arty on spawn, doesn't mean you should.

Just like...

Just because you /could/ put horseshoes in your boxing gloves, doesn't mean you should.

 

[Baron_Von_Uber]

A bad example for you: Ogledow, I don't know how he did it but a russian tanker managed to park his tank where he could shoot into the spawn from quite a distance away.
Wasn't fun that, i can tell you. Of cuorse, if our tanks had been alert he probably wouldn't have been able to do it for so long, but that's teamwork.. and a different issue altogether.

 

[Vertebraille]

Exit camping is fine, walking directly into a room where players are appearing not five feet from you is not. Berezina comes to mind, as players walk right into the spawn room behind the second line and kill more than a few % worth of reinforcing allies that don't have the ability to retaliate. And before you post some bull**** reasoning that 'the allies should be more aware'. Take note of the minefields that protect axis spawn areas. (Eg, when axis takes the 2nd line russians often die from the mine field that spawns to protect the new axis tank spawn). One would hope in newer versions of Berezina, Russians get an equal level of spawn protection as Axis.

 

[wolfhound338]

War is hell isn't it???

Oh Mike isn't it just........
TBH though i hate this as a practice, just spoils it.......... That is the camping rubbish to say.
I would be tempted to kick on some of these occasions if i am honest but only if it is spoling the fun for others and so i try to keep it all "status quo". I have kicked few from ours it has to be said BUT it needs be it WILL BE DONE!

We like to keep it fair on =IcM= in pub play and we ALLWAYS have ADMINS on to insure that all is well unlike some servers, no offence intended.

 

[Stroker_Ace]

With regard to Berezina. The guy who made the map has stated; "Fixed it with a spawn protection that somehow got deleted or not implemented for beta3. Not sure what happened, but it's fixed. I am thinking of also adding another room or two down there to spread out the spawns and give guys a chance just in case some loser manages to get in and camp. Some people are so pathetic it is beyond description. Penis envy, I suppose." -Slyk

Check out the Berezina thread in the Beta Maps section of the forums for more commments from the mapper himself.

Pinning a team or guarding a major exit from a spawn are fine in my humble opinion. Racking up kill after kill the second the enemy's boots hit the ground (before they even have time to go to iron sights) is weak and not at all sporting, again in my humble opinion. At any rate the "issue" or "tactic" (depending on your side of the arguement) will be addressed in the next Beta due for release in the next week or so.

 

[wolfhound338]

Spawn camping is not nearly the problem that team-killing is.

We should be focusing on a better method for booting TK's, without booting Squad Leaders who have idiots that repeatedly walk under their own artillery.

Is there no way to boot TKers in the spawn zone, as opposed to people who have made "legitimate" friendly-fire errors elsewhere on the map?

In seems to me that 90% of pernicious TK's happen in, or near, the spawn zone.

Squad Leaders being kicked for idiots walking into Arty is a tuff one I have to say BUT one " I WILL KICK FOR IF I HAVE CONCERN TO DO SO".

It is accepted that IN ANY GAME and game being the operative word here........ you will get people who just want to have a laugh being a bum in one way or another. So that said, it is up to the ADMINS to and the server messages, to inform these folks of the rules of what is acceptable on who's ever server it is.

 

[BeserkWraithlor]

It isn't any different than camping anywhere else on the map - people just need to be aware.

Please, people who vote "cheap," how is this different than normal camping?

100% agree. Spawn Camping is still camping, but people seem to accept camping in this game, because they say its "Realistic". When I was a noob, I complained about camping, and I got imsulted, flamed ,and laughed at in one of thr servers, and discovered camping is not tht bad, if you find ways to counter the camper.