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MG Suggestions Summary

[TW]Ramm-Jaeger

Tripwire Interactive President
Oct 11, 2005
1,884
3,097
www.redorchestragame.com
Hey all,

I've been trying to read through the MG suggestions thread to try and glean what the main issues or changes poeple would like to see with MGs are. But, as the thread is 20 pages long or something, it is just about impossible to comprehend. That and many issues listed in the thread were already addressed. Would it be possible for someone to post a bullet point list here of what the issues/changes poeple would like to see with the MGs. Please, a bulleted list only. I don't really want a 20 page discussion thread or 10,000 word dissertation :) Just let me know in summary what it is you all would like to see. Also, bear in mind, we're not likely to rip out any major system and redo it at this point. So tweaks are much more likely than major system revamping.

Thanks

John Gibson
President
Tripwire Interactive

Notes - Do not repost things allready in the thread. Do Not discuss things, do not flame things, do not post anything but lists.
 
Heres the post of mine from page 3 of that thread, minus/plus some edits. EDIT: On Wilsonam's request I am going to add all suggestions into this post.

Problem: MG's accuracy are the same no matter if it is the 1st or 10th bullet fired, in succession.
Fix: The longer the burst, the more innacurate the shots are after the 4th (DP), 5th (MG34), or 6th round (MG42). This is based both on fire rate and heft and is also based on balance not realism (though I did take realism into account, but I don't actually know having never fired any of those mg's IRL).

Problem: Deployed recoil is just a little too high.
Fix: Decrease deployed recoil a smidge (in the case of the MG42, reverse the recoil, because it reduces the longer you fire, but initially it is all over the place, it should be the other way around).

Problem: MG34's single shot is not as accurate as it should be and it should have tracers.
Fix: Increase accuracy for single shot and fix tracers not showing up.

Problem: Suppression effect is not enough to stop riflemen from returning fire on a MG while being fired upon.
Fix: Increase suppression effect (needed for all weapons really).

Problem: MG rounds do not penetrate materials.
Fix: Being looked into, though still using physical bullets (without huge amounts of lag mind you). My suggested fix is
there should be a ratio of hitscan rounds* to "physical" rounds (obviously all tracers would consist of the latter). I think a 1:1 ratio would be good, but since the game models tracers every 4 rounds, the first shot could be a "physical" round, the next 2 be hitscan, and the last (tracer) would be "physical". I would glady trade off some bullet physics realism to gain penetration realism.
*The Unreal 2.5 engine supports penetration with hitscan "rounds", if you did it with the actual bullet physics it would cause a huge amount of lag.
Note: if tracers are every 5 rounds than the order would a be : 1 physical round (first round fired), 3 hitscan rounds, 1 physical tracer round.

Problem: Tracer rounds are as bright as lazer shots from Star Wars.
Fix: Decrease the brightness of tracers for other players (it should still be easy for the MGer to see them), if possible (might be engine limitation, if so then just dimmer tracers for all).

Problem: You can only reload while deployed.
Fix: Allow undeployed reloading while prone (slower than when deployed) and possibly while crouched (very slow).

Problem: MG is too "static" when deployed and needs to be able to take cover.
Fix: Add "duck" feature, when a player presses the crouch button when deployed, while standing or crouched, he can duck behind the cover that he is currently deployed on and reload, change barrels, or undeploy and move.

Problem: Tracers are hardly ever used to aim because you can only be in IS (deployed) or hipped.
Fix: Add "looking over" feature, when the player scolls with the mouse wheel (what I use to look over the DP in the BA64 gunner position) while deployed, he will get off IS by raising his head (view) several inches off the gun, will allow quicker undeploy (by like .25 of a second, this would also be the default position you would be in when you first deploy, again saving you about .25 of a second of deploy time).

Problem: MG42 eats through ammo to quickly.
Fix: Allow a player to clip 1 ammo belt to his existing belt (only 1 for balance reasons, though I don't think this feature would even be needed if some of the other changes were implemented).

Suggestion: Ability to abort reload and grab hand weapon.

Problem: MG class can give other MGers ammo without losing any of his own.
Fix: Either disallow MG's to resupply other friendly MGer's or decrease their ammo count when 1 MGer resupplies another. Also, a MGer with a MG 34 should not be able to resupply a MGer with a MG 42 and vice versa.

Problem: In certain spots MG's are too hard to deploy sometimes, you are either deploying below the cover (ex. sandbag blocking bottom half of your view) or you are deployed above the cover and are a very easy target.
Fix: Unknown... thats Ramm's domain, unless all the maps were to be changed (yeah right).

Suggestion: Red tracers instead of yellow for german mg's (I'm not to sure about the historical accuracy of this, dev can remove if felt necessary).

Suggestion: Be able to adjust sights for range.

Suggestion: Belts and drums availible for both MG 34 and MG 42 (I assume this was meant as an option that you would pick during class selection).

Suggestion: When sprinting/running with German mg's the animation should show the weapon being carried by their carrying belts instead of carrying them by the burning hot metal (actually it is being held by one of the bipod legs, but I'm sure the strap was also used at the same time to share the load).

Suggestion: MG's should begin to overheat at no less than 100 shots fired continuously (I'm not sure about the historical accuracy of this, dev can remove if felt necessary).

Suggestion: New sound for the MG 34 (it sounds good to me as it is, maybe some better matching between the semi sound and full auto?).

Suggestion: Recoil should not be so static and should depend on your stamina, once you stamina is half way gone the recoil starts increasing slowly and your stamina starts diminishing slowly (initially the recoil would be lower than now). Once the stamina bar is full you have the "full" recoil as it is now. This suggestion is for some of the people who do not want the mg's to change (for what they think are balance or realism issues). I can't remember where I heard this one from (or thought of it myself), so I'm not taking credit for it.

Suggestion: Allow MG42 to fire from the hip (disallow moving for balance reasons, so stationary firing only).

Suggestion: Allow for quick deploy/undeploy when prone by having the bi-pod in the extended position (maybe a slower prone speed to balance this, after all it would be more difficult to grip an extended bi-pod).

Suggestion: Reduce or remove coaxil mg shake.

Suggestion: Speed up tracers and reduce their length.

Suggestion: Pressing "drop weapon" key while deployed make the player leave the mg where it is, then the MGer auto switches to pistol.

Problem:
Reloading an mg (most likely German only) without clearing the chamber is unrealistic.
Fix: Extend the reload animation to include clearing the chamber.

Problem: MGer's should be able to accept a resupply from teammates even when they don't have the MG selected at the moment.
Fix: Allow players to resupply MG when holding any weapon (obviously still has to have mg in inventory).

Problem: Players having ammo for enemy mgs is unrealistic.
Fix: Disallow resupply to a teammate that picks up a enemy mg.

Suggestion: When shooting a mg from the hip the deviation should be more directed and not so extreme (the gun should not jump that wildly all over the place), especially when crouched and static.

BIG note: Look at the title of this thread ("MG Suggestions", implying changing and adding on to whats already there) before posting, whole seperate additions like tripods, new mgs, new classes, etc have been left out because they don't fit. So unless a mod instructs me to put them in the list its not going to happen.

Note: Obviously not everything in the list was thought up by me, I take full credit for only the alternating hitscan penetration idea. Oh and yes this list is being constantly updated. And I know no discussion is allowed and what not but do please try write a slightly more descriptive sentence for some suggestions (e.x. "Better sound for the MG 34" doesn't mean anything to me because its not like it sounds like a dog barking or something, so please state whether the reason is for balance, realism, or both).
 
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Byte's post is the bulk of it.

It comes down mainly to:

- MG feels too static, and the MG gunner is too vulnerable/exposed
- Accuracy feels far off the mark of where it should be (recoil induced or otherwise) especially for short bursts. Recoil seems to 'start rough and get better', when by all accounts it should ideally work the other way around.
- Supression simply has too minimal effect to make players 'fear' the MG (in conjunction with poor accuracy), leading to players exploiting point one (exposed/vulnerable MGer)
 
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Same opinions as previous post:


1) Increase suppression effect by 200%
. Preferable tunnelvision instead of blur, and no option to disable.

2) Use mouse wheel to Duck behind MG to avoid incomming fire and

3) Use mouse wheel for heads over IS to aim with tracers.

4) Add penetration (as previously stated by Byte me)

5) Possible to abort reload and grab hand weapon.

6) MG class should not have spare ammo for other MG's

7) Tracers too bright and comic like.

8) No/less upwards recoil and recoil at all.

9) More accuracy for all MG's. Should have good accuracy on 500m!

10) Stamina bleed faster - Mg class is carrying ALOT of weignt and should not be able to sprint like the SMG and rifle class!

11) MG class should be less affected by Suppression effect (only way to pin an MG should be to flank him or smoke him)

12) Impact sounds should be turned up a notch

13) Impact clouds should be 1.5 times larger atleast.

All in all:
Pro's:
+ MG is a feared weapon that suppress you to the ground or instantly kill you with deadly accuracy if you are not careful.
+ When deployed anything in its field of view is endangered.
Cons:
- MG has greatly reduced mobility. And takes time to redeploy.
- Its weaknesses is on its flanks, where it cannot redeploy fast enough.
 
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The problems, and solutions, as I see them and from the various threads and suggestions from other MG fans are:

These are in order of need from most critical to least critical (though the top four are ALL necessary IMO to fix MGs)...

Camera: Move camera to inside head.

Recoil: Two things-Too much recoil and the way it is visually represented.

More versatile aiming modes: Heads up fire.

Deployment: Automatically deploy when prone.

Bipod: Rotate around the bi-pod feature would be very nice

Ammo selection: Drums, 150 round belts, tracers, and adding to belts.

Hip fire: allow 42 to hip fire,and reduce recoil on ALL MGs

Accuracy: investigate accuracy of aiming points being "off". Maybe slightly increase accuracy decrease spread.

Duck: be able to duck

Reload while not deployed: self explanatory

My 2 cents...

Sasquatch, fixed as per request. Apologies for being verbose...I'm a history professor, I can't help it :)
 
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Pizza grenadier, like requested, no bookworks, just a bullet list. No arguments, just a list.

From now on, everyone, post your discussion topics in the other threads about MG's, and keep this one clean of discussion, just listing. Any other discussions and dissertations that sum up to 23.756 dollars in small change instead of 2 cts will be moved over to the appropriate threads. ;)
 
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Here are some of the suggestions that stuck out to me and seemed like they would be reasonably possible to implement. Bold ones, I think, really need to be done. The others well important could be done later.
  • Increase the MG's accuracy and reduce the recoil when supported(mostly the 42 and 34).
  • The single fire of the MG34 so be more accurate.
  • Fix the give ammo. Stop giving point when you already have all the ammo you can hold.
  • MG suppression effects increased
  • Taking cover while reloading
  • Cancel Reload option
  • Change the recoil pattern when fired from hip.
  • remove the ability to reload the MG34 and MG42 mid belt
  • Tracer rounds are to bright
  • Barrel change is just a little to slow.
  • You can reload while undeployed.
  • Add "looking over" feature
  • Faster Reload time
  • MG rounds penetrate.
 
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Only supplying my opinion, as I think drastically increasing the accuracy and deadlyness of MGs is not required just yet, even though it sure seems to be the "easiest" fix.

- increase the size and duration of the "dust" effect when bullets hit ground and objects, so you can completly block sight towards the MG if firing 15+ rounds around one spot, for a few moments (you could also consider upkicked dirt to affect the target's sight, which triggers an animation of the soldier raising the hand to clear his eyes, if a bullet impacts <30cm from head - it might be a "neat" feature with a larger effect on supression than might be exspected, but it would require alot of work depending on if you need a new animation for every weapon in game or if some are interchangable)

- please make sure it's not possible to fire any weapon while being almost invisible behind cover (only tip of helmet visble or a part of the ellbow, etc).

- allow us to reload while undeployed

- alternativly / additionaly to the first point make the current "supression effect" affect someone's aim and last a bit longer (and make it impossible to disable), so using the MG to suppress instead of only firing to kill is worthwhile at times.
 
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Summary of MG threads

- Increase MG42 and MG34 accuracy.
- Reduce recoil for German MG's.
- Allow MG42 to shoot from the hip.
- Increase MG34 single shot accuracy and add tracers.
- Increase suppression effect for all machineguns.
- Increase coaxil MG accuracy.
- Reduce or remove coaxil mg shake.
- Speed up tracers and reduce their length.
 
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And please don't repeat what has been said in previous posts - it really doesn't help and won't make the team any more interested in it! Others have been deleting gently - I will start being draconian about it if people can't be disciplined on this...

Byte_Me: can you edit your first post to take everyone else's points into consideration, please, so we have just ONE list?

Spaseeba...
 
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  • while standing and beeing deployed the MG42's recoil should stay as it's now!!! This gun is a real beast!! It s just perfect!
  • It shouldn't be possible to shoot the MG42 from the hip!!
  • Leave the russian MG as it is.
  • Do not make MG gunners run out of stamina faster(at least not a lot!!) -> destroys the teamplay MG gunners will always be last
 
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-Red tracers instead of yellow for german mg's

-Be able to adjust sights for range.

-5x 50 round Belts ammo loadout for MG 34 and MG 42.

-Introduce Maxim 1910 with 2x250 round belt for the Sovjet side.

-Introduce Heavy Machinegunner class for the Germans by adding tripods for MG 34/42 respectively with working optical sights, different pose settings and 2x250 round belt which can only be moved at walking pace and obviously not be fired by the hip.

-When sprinting/running with german mg's the animation should show the guns being carried by their carrying slings instead of carrying them by the burning hot metal.

-Better sound for the MG 34.

-Make an assistent gunner class which has more ammo with at least twice the loadout of the gunner and who should be carrying the spare barrel(s), in the case of MG34/42's, and binoculars for spotting.

-MG's should begin to overheat at no less than 100 shots fired continueously.

That is all I can think of without repeating what others have said earlier and I hope my points are not too elaborate:eek:
 
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Belt feed Mg-34- The Mg-34 without the belt was considered by the German army a lmg while the belt feed variant was a considered a heavy machine gun.
Ability to leave a deployed gun- So you can duck, runway from a nade ,or so a budddy can pick up where u left off- without dropping his gun but he cant take the Mg with him unless he drops his gun.Works like a fixed gun unless u actually pick it up.
A tripod enplacement- In heavy axis fortified postions -German defensive levels.
Deployment: There is absolutely no reason why a gunner should have to think about deploying his bipod when he goes prone. Gunners put the bipod down in combat and simply had to drop to the ground to be ready to fire. It is as natural as the gaming philosophy that TWI has mentioned "if it's easy in real life...". Simply put, when you go prone, you are deployed automatically in that heads up (but able to fire) view mentioned above, and from there you can go into IS as normal. Deployment on objects need not be changed (it takes a conscious effort to put the gun on a sandbag or windowsill in real life-not as easy as just dropping to the ground), though the heads up view should still apply here as well.

Ammo selection: You should be able to select the type of ammo using checked boxes.

Select your ammo supply from:

Drums

150 round belts

and select use of tracers or not for each. You should be able to take both if you choose, and choose which one is primary, or your starting.
.

Probably hard to implement;
Damage and break- Mg-42 and Mg-34 with a direct hit from a Soviet at-rifle.
So the Soviet AT class has more to do(also this was realistic).
Ablity to fire over a commrades's sholder while he grips the bipod.-this was done alot ;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAxkvctd5Ps
 
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