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PTRD Soldat

Another main reason I feel that these limitations should be included is because I feel that the Panzerfausts, even with its currently nerfed power, is still to powerful because of the fact that its too easy to use, so easy in fact that you can shoot off all three of your shots within 6 seconds, which was just plain NOT realistic, and I only feel that the Panzerfaust can be givien its true power ONLY if its mobility fatures are included to go along with the package

Rifleing should slowed a bit.Too powerful?! Nah its weak when compared to its real life counterpart which at 100meters could penetrate 200mm of armor.
For both anti-tank sodlers they could pick from their nations respective Anti-Tank Rifle, PTRD and PTRS for Russians, and the 7.9-mm Anti-Tank Rifle for the Germans. (I couldn't find the actual name of the German Anti-Tank Rifle, but it does exist and was even produced in moderate numbers.) The Anti-Tank rifles would shine over the Anti-Tank rockes because of their accuracy and ability to shoot at long ranges, but very good shots are required to peneterate tank armor, but the rifles could also take out infantry too, which wasn't an origional use, but it was a plus. The Anti-Tank rifles for the Anti-Tank solders on both sides would mostly be geared for early war maps, but could also be used in later war maps at the map designers content.

The reason the German antitank rifles where phased out after 1941 was because of thier uneffectiveness not only that anti-tank rifles in general are close range weapons because they lose power rather quickly. The Soviet at rifle can penetrate only 35mm of armor at 100m the Panerfaust 200mm so there is no contest the Panzerfaust is better.There are various pictures of Germans carrying Panzerfausts and a Karabiner98k or and Mp-40/I( see below) The German antitank rifles are:
1.Granatbuchse 39
2.Panzerb
 
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I do believe they had to load the war head into the top of the Panzerfaust stick.
too powerful! Nah its weak when compared to its real life counterpart which at 100meters could penetrate 200meters of armor.
Holy crap! It could penetrate a fifth of a kilometer! Damn, that thing must have been the greatest weapon ever created - you could sink a battleship!
Anyway, like I said, a Panzerfaust would only penetrate if it hit the hull. If it hit the tracks, it would not penetrate. If it hit the wheels, it would not penetrate, and if it hit a bird in flight, it would not penetrate. Maybe making it a little more random would be nice (as in, it doesn't always take exactly two shots, and instead of just lighting up the tank, it would be nice if it killed crew instead), but as far as power goes, it's not far off right now. Just because you have a number on paper doesn't mean that the amount the weapon could penetrate every single time regardless of any other factor. That's true for everything, including an IS-2 shooting a Stug, a Tiger shooting a SU-76, and Big Bertha shooting a pigeon. Stuff happens, and in battle, nothing is 100% reliable.
And like I've said hundreds of times, PTRD can penetrate Pz IV from the side. I've posted numbers for this in other threads. PTRD in game currently very very rarely penetrates Tiger or Panther (which is correct), almost never penetrates Pz IV from the front, and will occasionally penetrate Pz III from the front. The only reason you might think it's overpowered is because, with skill, a Pz IV, Pz III, or Stug can be destroyed with one shot to the ammo store. However, as far as the size of the round and penetration figures, this is quite realistic, and is certainly not guaranteed on ever shot. Try using it in an actual game and you'll see.
 
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Holy crap! It could penetrate a fifth of a kilometer! Damn, that thing must have been the greatest weapon ever created - you could sink a battleship!

LoL, sorry that should read 200 mm-Im still editing that-:)
Panzerfaust would only penetrate if it hit the hull. If it hit the tracks, it would not penetrate. If it hit the wheels, it would not penetrate, and if it hit a bird in flight, it would not penetrate. Maybe making it a little more random would be nice (as in, it doesn't always take exactly two shots, and instead of just lighting up the tank, it would be nice if it killed crew instead), but as far as power goes, it's not far off right now. Just because you have a number on paper doesn't mean that the amount the weapon could penetrate every single time regardless of any other factor.
-Yes I agree why do think guns have a bit of firerate variablity? example Mg-42 firerate-1200-1500Rpm Because they are made by people they have slight variablity.Not to mention you have to be pointing at a tank at a 90 degree angle. Anyways If a Panzerfaust happens to hit the tracks of a tank then the tracks should break If it hits the turret then the turret should go flying off (boxtop turret)- wait for a later detailed account of this by a German WW2 veteran(a quote from interview from a magazine).
currently very very rarely penetrates Tiger or Panther (which is correct), almost never penetrates Pz IV from the front, and will occasionally penetrate Pz III from the front. The only reason you might think it's overpowered is because, with skill, a Pz IV, Pz III, or Stug can be destroyed with one shot to the ammo store. However, as far as the size of the round and penetration figures, this is quite realistic, and is certainly not guaranteed on ever shot. Try using it in an actual game and you'll see.

It shouldnt penetrate anyting over 35mm!!!!Only reason it was kept in production was to disable tank tracks! and maybe kill a Panzer IV from the back and the PanzerIII only on the sides ! Taking damage from at-rifles frontally or all with the tigerI and Panther is as realistic as bunny hopping!
 
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...which is why you're not going to take damage from a PTRD in a Panther or a Tiger except on very rare occasions. Believe me on this, I've tried many times. In game right now, it might happen once in a hundred shots that you get slightly damaged. Realistically, this is entirely possible from hitting a view slit, optics, tracks, whatever. A Panther has 40 mm armor on the side. At 90 degrees, the PTRD could just barely get through 40 mm.
Sources:

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/ussr/guns.html

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz4.htm

A Pz IV does not have 40 mm on the side, so the PTRD should be able to penetrate it.
The Tiger should not be penetrated with such a small round, and it happens in the game very very rarely. This may be due to some bugs, which the development team has already said they're looking at.

And I agree with you that a track would break if hit with a Panzerfaust, but the tank would not be destroyed, and the crew would probably not be seriously injured.
 
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OK, I suppose more explanation is in order. One of the things about penetration values on the PTRD is that they do not tell the whole story. The PTRD had good penetration values for a weapon of its size, but since it fired a solid projectile, it did not always damage a tank. In fact, I've read anecdotal accounts (can't seem to remember where though) of German tankers finding lots of holes in their tanks after battle, but no other damage besides that. This explains why the PTRD was not considered as exceedingly effective a weapon as penetration tables might make you think. It's a simple rule - if you have a small projectile, you can make it go faster, and energy is mv^2, so speed counts more than mass. In game, however, the PTRD slowly does damage to a tank every time it penetrates, and the only damage zones are engine and ammo. Other damage zones just cause the tank's HP to slowly go down, which is a rough way to model it. So the PTRD is not inaccurate, it's more the damage model on the tanks right now. Also, engagements in-game take place at much shorter ranges than in reality. In reality, the PTRD might be used at up to 500 m - that's practically across all of Arad. At such ranges, you of course can't hope to aim at parts of a tank, just hope to hit the thing *somewhere*. The PTRD is not like a Panzerfaust, which you can shoot kneeling from behind cover and duck again. It has to be set up and aimed carefully, so it was more often used at long ranges.
 
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PTRD in game currently very very rarely penetrates Tiger or Panther (which is correct), almost never penetrates Pz IV from the front, and will occasionally penetrate Pz III from the front. The only reason you might think it's overpowered is because, with skill, a Pz IV, Pz III, or Stug can be destroyed with one shot to the ammo store...

...which is why you're not going to take damage from a PTRD in a Panther or a Tiger except on very rare occasions. Believe me on this, I've tried many times. In game right now, it might happen once in a hundred shots that you get slightly damaged. Realistically, this is entirely possible from hitting a view slit, optics, tracks, whatever. A Panther has 40 mm armor on the side. At 90 degrees, the PTRD could just barely get through 40 mm...

...In reality, the PTRD might be used at up to 500 m - that's practically across all of Arad

The PTRD-41 is a single shot anti-tank rifle introduced shortly before the German invasion of the Soviet Union. Due to the rapid increase of tank armor the PTRD-41 was soon ineffective as an anti-tank weapon although it remained in use until 1945 for use against soft skin targets and light armored vehicles. It was useless in a frontal assault, and the weapon was too cumbersome to consider stalking for a rear engine shot. Instead, against tanks it was used to target soft points such as visor screens or periscopes, blinding the crew. The 14.5 mm armour-piercing bullet had a muzzle velocity of 1012 m/s.

From various sources and books:
www.antitank.co.uk/russian1.htm
wwiivehicles
wikipedia
ww2russianweapons

PTRD 41 Penetration:
100m 300m 500m
40mm 25mm 22mm

Armor from German tanks in game:

Tiger I Ausf E armor:
Hull Front : 100mm @ 66
 
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3.)The Panzer IV F1/F2 cannot be frontally penetrated. Only the sides at less than 300 meters and rear at around 500 meters or less can be penetrated.

4.)The Panzer III L cannot be frontally penetrated due to the addition of the spaced front armor (20mm). Sides can be penetrated at about 300 meters or less. Rear cannot be penetrated.

Not to mention the later addtion of armored skirts to the sides of the Panzer IV G and H which should be in game rather than those rare F1 and F2. Made it invulnerable to any Antitank rifle in the side.
As for the rear tanks were usually in formations with infantry cover and rarely exposed their vulnerable rear. :)
It is inside the tank. If you shoot at the ammo store frontally the PTRD round has to go through at least 50mm++ or more of armor which it cant thus making frontal kills with the PTRD not possible against the tanks mentioned above.
Not only that this anti-tank bullet has to travel thru the front armor (aint gonna happen) thru the crew any obstructions in the way then the ammo compartment then thru the actual ammo itself. Thats way to overpowered and farfetched!
Theres a demo someone made of the of the soviet rifle penetrating Tiger I's and Panther G's with 1-2 shots.Use the search to find it.
 
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The PTRD-41 is a single shot anti-tank rifle introduced shortly before the German invasion of the Soviet Union. Due to the rapid increase of tank armor the PTRD-41 was soon ineffective ...

The germans thought it effective enough in 1943 when they started upgrading the side armours of their main tank models. And yes, the skirts were good protection against the tungsten core rounds.

PTRD 41 Penetration:
100m 300m 500m
40mm 25mm 22mm
And it was adviced to use the weapon at the ranges between 50m-100m if possible.

The official Soviet penetration test results were mostly done at 60 degrees and using the certified penetration value. What do these numbers represent?
 
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The germans thought it effective enough in 1943 when they started upgrading the side armours of their main tank models. And yes, the skirts were good protection against the tungsten core rounds

It was NOT FOR ANTI-TANK RIFLES which were ineffective by 1942. It was for shaped charges.The fact that it stopped at-rounds was a side effect.

it seems that although they were initially developed to aid defeat kinetic energy penetrators by increasing overall armor thickness, the potential of these spaced armor plates against hollow charge ammunitions was realized quickly and the concept of skirts was retained primarily for this side effect (as evidenced by the -albeit rather rare- use of mesh wire skirts, and application of skirts on armor surfaces that were practically immune from AT rifle fire.


The official Soviet penetration test results were mostly done at 60 degrees and using the certified penetration value. What do these numbers represent?
They represent real Soviet at-rifle penetration data from various sources.-What may I ask is your source?
 
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ww2nazigermansoldierswithpanzerfaust.jpg

look closely it looks like an Mp-34? or maybe a captured Nagant?

Looks like this picture I took in Bastogne:

IMG_1460.jpg
 
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Rifleing should slowed a bit.Too powerful?! Nah its weak when compared to its real life counterpart which at 100meters could penetrate 200mm of armor.

Thats what I just said, the Panzerfaust is weak in terms of damage levels, it should only take one Panzerfaust to take out a tank, but in RO the Panzerfaust is too powerful beccause of the SPEED at which it can be used by a player.

But on the topic of a German Anti-Tank soldier being able to carry an SMG or rifle, however true it may have been in reality, its one of the few ways I can possibly think of the even up the sides for the game, because any player can see theres a lot that a German Anti-Tank soldeir can do that the Russian counterpart cant even touch. I mean just look at their loadouts.

Both get a pistol and ammo, both get grenades, but the German gets three Panzerfausts and an SMG while the Russian only gets the AT Rifle with 20 rounds. And anyone whos been playing RO for any length of time can tell you that the Panzerfaust completly blows the Russian AT Rifle out of the water in both power and usefulness.

Even though the Panzerfaust power is much lower than reality, its unrealistic in the fact that you can carry three and fire them off very quickly in a short amount of time.

I firmly believe that the Panzerfaust power should be upped, but it should be slower to work with and you should only be able to carry one. The reason I keep suggesting the Lend-Lease Bazooka and the Panzershrek is because they both have similar capabilities as the Panzerfaust, are accessable to both sides, and allow for that soldier to carry multiple rockets unlike the one-shot Panzerfaust.

Now many will argue that the AT Rifle can destroy tanks in one hit, and I dont deny that it cant, many others even say that the AT Rifle is too powerful. But when you compare the AT Rifle to the Panzerfaust there is no contest, sure the AT Rifle can make one shot kills at long range, but what percent of players know how to make those shots or even care enough to practace and get good at it, not to mension how hard it is to get in a position to make those shots. While the little German AT guy is running around, taking out infantry like every other soldier and killing tanks left and right as soon as he gets in range.

I can tell you for a fact that in ANY server I have been in where an AT Rifle kill has been made on a tank, there have allready been at least 10 or more Panzerfaust kills allready. Most servers dont even get ANY AT Rifle kills.

Even though you are totally correct that many German AT soldiers carried other weapons into battle, the basic AT soldier concept still remains, the normal infantry depend in an AT soldier to take out tanks while the AT soldier depends on normal infantry for support enemy against ground troops. Now in reality it was possible for an AT soldier to carry an MG or rifle, but only because he would never use rambo tactics like you can see in the current German AT infantry in RO today, its because this Axis soldier can combat both infantry and vehicles only allows him to go off on his own because he wont need any help from anybody, and if he's a competant player on top of that he can completly defend an entire objective from multiple tanks ON HIS OWN. The only way I can see to fix the problem in RO is to take the slightly unrealistic route and remove the second weapon from the German AT soldier.

My suggestion to solve the problem in the name of gameplay might not cooperate with history at every turn, but its the best and closest thing I can come up with that doesn't make anything drastic up or attach values that will make the game arcade like. I still have yet to see a solid solution that trys to cover all aspects of the problem.

In the end all of the facts that you presented are true but I still stand by what I think should be done because its the only way I can think of to solve the problem, make both sides even but still different, and still try and keep the basic realistic, and fun, gameplay thats allready been laid out for us. Sure my ideas may not be totally realistic, but if they are implemented the right way they can bend the historical rules enough without breaking them to bits and still leave the gameplay fun and fair but also still leave the noticible differences in both sides intact.

Basically you are right about what really happened in the war, but RO is only a game, and a game doesn't have room to be able to do everything perfectly and historically accurate, some things HAVE to be bent for the sake of gameplay. If we made every part realistic the game might not have as much success that its seeing now because of how unfair reality was. Yes, in reality war was not fair and different sides had different, more or less tools and not everything was even. But because RO is a game we are allowed a little leway to make the fake video-game war zone more fair so that our palyers can have fun, which is the most important part of creating a video game, to be able to have fun playing. This is why many unrealistic games like Battlefeild and CoD have done so well, not because they were in WW2 or were besed on real events, its because the gameplay was FUN, and that alone is the sole reason those games did so well despite their unrealistis qualities.

Lastly, I want to tank you for presenting your counterpoints to me, that is allways the best thing that you can give someone about their suggestions.
 
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Great thread, keep it up :)


I wonder what the gods think of this? *hopes for a yellow response*


I'm all for the weapons being accurate. I'm all for limitations on the player being acurate (barring the day when I have to dig a hole to **** in, mind :p) but since loadouts are already crazy imba, tweaking them shouldn't be that much of a problem. Unless the intention is to simulate the hard time that the Russians had against German armor. Even then, though, what is the reasoning behind leaving the German AT trooper with such great anti-infantry capabilities as well?
 
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Both get a pistol and ammo, both get grenades, but the German gets three Panzerfausts and an SMG while the Russian only gets the AT Rifle with 20 rounds. And anyone whos been playing RO for any length of time can tell you that the Panzerfaust completly blows the Russian AT Rifle out of the water in both power and usefulness.
The Germans never get grenades or pistols with their AT class. The only exception is Arad where the Germans get grenades. Keep in mind you can only use a Panzerfaust under 100 meters. The PTRD can be used at 500+ meters and also doubles as a rifle with its ridiculous accuracy. 3 Panzerfausts weigh 40.2 pounds a unloaded PTRD weighs 40 pounds and is over 6 feet long. Add in 20 rounds of 14.5mm weighing 64 grams each, a pistol with 4 mags and 2 grenades. Add an MP40 with 6 mags or a K98 with 9 clips. Both load outs are ridiculous weighing 50 pounds or more. Comparing the PTRD to the Panzerfaust is also ridiculous, they are 2 completely different weapons. The Panzerfaust is easier to use because it was. 1 shot and throw away.

Even though the Panzerfaust power is much lower than reality, its unrealistic in the fact that you can carry three and fire them off very quickly in a short amount of time.
It's also unrealstic to be carrying a 40 pound 6 foot long anti-tank rifle with 20 rounds, a pistol with 4 mags and 2 grenades. With the ability to sprint and go through door ways carrying it sideways. The amount of Panzerfausts you can carry should only be changed when the PTRD is toned down in power.
 
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I think their both balanced pretty well, however I think the panzerfaust would be a little bit more on par if It was slower to operate. An anti-tank soldier can pop up and down through the machine gun fire of a tank and fire the pankerfaust off destroying the tank.

I think the iron sight animation for the panzerfaust should be much longer, since your putting the weapon up on your shoulder instead of bracing it against you (if Im not mistaken) As well as make the time it takes to bring up the weapon longer.
 
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