the release of Beta3 changed alot of the strats IMO, as now tanks are limited in 3 cap areas as to their effectiveness. big difference! 
Upvote
0
Tactics Berezina defensive positions
- Thread starter komet
- Start date
Ideally, the Russians will lose their tanks and rely on AT guns instead.
I don't like the idea of the Russians only getting a few tanks. If the players who spawn the crew are idiots, they can waste them incredibly fast, which leaves the rest of the russian team totally screwed.
This has been my prevailing experience on the map as Russians. Much better (IMHO) is to provide them with ATG's that anyone can use to fight off the German tank hoards.
Upvote
0
*cross-post between /tactics and /beta releases*
On one hand I can see that people hate change but on the other I am quickly tiring of the *****ing and moaning over the cap zone changes. What if this is how it was from beta 1? Would there be so much crying? I'm very inclined to not revert to beta 2 conditions just out of spite. It is THREE of the freaking NINE objectives that require infantry only to cap and they are three reasonable locations where the enemy should be cleared from the zone... the farm should also be infantry only, actually, and don't think that I am not considering that one. Sure, as a tanker it now frustrates people because they can't cap on their own and now they have to rely on teamwork. We wouldn't want to encourage that in a game based on the concept, now would we? Ultimately this cap zone concept serves to slow the German attack a bit and gives the Russians a chance to hold ground. I suspect most of those who are unhappy play German the vast majority of the time. In the end, it IS how I always envisioned it and it is still only in a beta stage. It might change, it might not. I don't see gameplay being hindered or damaged by this change at this point, not without more evidence.
As for the tank pits... lowering the front walls would essentially make them pointless. The tanks would be even more exposed and honestly there would be no reason to use the defenses. Team tanking can still be effective in these situations. The driver should park the tank and exit the vehicle, then spot for the commander/gunner. Watch the flanks for infantry approaching and while conveying information to the commander, move the tank when danger approaches. Players need to be smarter, period. Parking out in the open just so you have something to do isn't necessarily the best thing for the team, is it... or are those countless German players who park on the 1st line ridge sticking out like Chinatown hookers, really the hidden geniues in the game??? Tankers should, in my opinion, switch in and out of roles depending on the situation. If you are defending the second line, not all of the tanker roles need to be filled, often times more foot troops are more valuable. People need to think and adapt, otherwise go play CoD2 for the mindless arcade value. Team tanking can be very effective in a variety of ways but sometimes you have to give up the 'glory' for a team member or for the greater good. I personally think this is one map, where for the Russians especially, solo-tanking is not only easier but more fun.
I just don't see why there is a general slide in opinion that every map should play the same way. Why should you always have the same aspects and combinations in every custom map? This map has morphed in three betas and obviously isn't quite right yet, but more and more I sense that many people would rather it be more like other maps instead of unique in it's own right. I am trying to keep an open, if not skeptical mind, on all input. I think expecting the same from the community is not too much to ask.
On one hand I can see that people hate change but on the other I am quickly tiring of the *****ing and moaning over the cap zone changes. What if this is how it was from beta 1? Would there be so much crying? I'm very inclined to not revert to beta 2 conditions just out of spite. It is THREE of the freaking NINE objectives that require infantry only to cap and they are three reasonable locations where the enemy should be cleared from the zone... the farm should also be infantry only, actually, and don't think that I am not considering that one. Sure, as a tanker it now frustrates people because they can't cap on their own and now they have to rely on teamwork. We wouldn't want to encourage that in a game based on the concept, now would we? Ultimately this cap zone concept serves to slow the German attack a bit and gives the Russians a chance to hold ground. I suspect most of those who are unhappy play German the vast majority of the time. In the end, it IS how I always envisioned it and it is still only in a beta stage. It might change, it might not. I don't see gameplay being hindered or damaged by this change at this point, not without more evidence.
As for the tank pits... lowering the front walls would essentially make them pointless. The tanks would be even more exposed and honestly there would be no reason to use the defenses. Team tanking can still be effective in these situations. The driver should park the tank and exit the vehicle, then spot for the commander/gunner. Watch the flanks for infantry approaching and while conveying information to the commander, move the tank when danger approaches. Players need to be smarter, period. Parking out in the open just so you have something to do isn't necessarily the best thing for the team, is it... or are those countless German players who park on the 1st line ridge sticking out like Chinatown hookers, really the hidden geniues in the game??? Tankers should, in my opinion, switch in and out of roles depending on the situation. If you are defending the second line, not all of the tanker roles need to be filled, often times more foot troops are more valuable. People need to think and adapt, otherwise go play CoD2 for the mindless arcade value. Team tanking can be very effective in a variety of ways but sometimes you have to give up the 'glory' for a team member or for the greater good. I personally think this is one map, where for the Russians especially, solo-tanking is not only easier but more fun.
I just don't see why there is a general slide in opinion that every map should play the same way. Why should you always have the same aspects and combinations in every custom map? This map has morphed in three betas and obviously isn't quite right yet, but more and more I sense that many people would rather it be more like other maps instead of unique in it's own right. I am trying to keep an open, if not skeptical mind, on all input. I think expecting the same from the community is not too much to ask.
Upvote
0
I think the number of tanks for the Russians is fine. You can't plan (in every map) on how idiots may use those tanks. Its unfortunate..., but if you were to add more, it would throw off the balance of the map. Same can be said of the Germans, if they use their tanks like idiots, same thing will happen, only it may take a bit longer....
Upvote
0
All very good points, I think. The BEST thing about the map overall, is that it makes you have to THINK about how to win. This point alone puts RO above all other games, and this map in particular. There are many ways to win, this maps lets you try them all. Be as critical to the developers as you want, he should take it as a compliment. Either side can win this map......you just have to be the smarter side.
Upvote
0
Actually, I think the capzones are perfectly fine (I don't think I even noticed that you've changed them).
My only "change" to the map would be to drop the Russian tanks completely (maybe give them a scout car for recon) and give them ATG's instead, but I can hardly hold that against you since they don't exist yet!
This is by far the best map available in RO. I hope the pinheads in the forums don't discourage you (or others) from making more maps like this in the future.
Upvote
0
I personaly think the new cap zones are an excellent idea, in real life you can't just drive in somewhere with tanks and assume it's clear, there always has to be an infantry clean up. Especially in trench warfare.
The best defense for russians is defense. Players who move OUT of the trenches are fools. Tankers who venture in front of their lines are fools. Another key tactic is to fall back. I think you should only fight for the 1st line second line and east bank. And perhaps the village. The rest of the objectives are horribly exposed and allow the german armour excellent flanking positions from which they can massacre the defenders.
I also think that russian tank drivers should try to keep an AP in the barrel, they can use the hull MG for soft targets, killing the german armour is far more important, as if they are left to camp on the western ridges then they can be a nuiscance.
The best defense for russians is defense. Players who move OUT of the trenches are fools. Tankers who venture in front of their lines are fools. Another key tactic is to fall back. I think you should only fight for the 1st line second line and east bank. And perhaps the village. The rest of the objectives are horribly exposed and allow the german armour excellent flanking positions from which they can massacre the defenders.
I also think that russian tank drivers should try to keep an AP in the barrel, they can use the hull MG for soft targets, killing the german armour is far more important, as if they are left to camp on the western ridges then they can be a nuiscance.
Upvote
0
I think it depends on who you're playing with.
Generally, in disorganized public servers, it's easiest to simply defend 1st line, 2nd line, and the East bank. Those are the prepared defenses and are the easiest spots to defend from.
BUT, if you can get some people organized, a small squad of, say, three troops can help DELAY the enemy from reaching those points, simply by harassing them at the "middle" cap zones (village, farm, etc.). The goal then is not to actually PREVENT the capture of those zones, but simply to make it take longer to do, thereby (hopefully) depleting German reinforcements, and on top of that running out the clock.
Most of the time, the Russians will lose on reinforcements if anything, but if they play smart, they can make reinforcements less of an issue. Think of reinforcements as time, basically, because they extend your team's time in-game. Thus, if you've only got 16% reinforcements left, but there's only 3:00 on the clock, you're fine as long as you defend from your strongest position.
Generally, in disorganized public servers, it's easiest to simply defend 1st line, 2nd line, and the East bank. Those are the prepared defenses and are the easiest spots to defend from.
BUT, if you can get some people organized, a small squad of, say, three troops can help DELAY the enemy from reaching those points, simply by harassing them at the "middle" cap zones (village, farm, etc.). The goal then is not to actually PREVENT the capture of those zones, but simply to make it take longer to do, thereby (hopefully) depleting German reinforcements, and on top of that running out the clock.
Most of the time, the Russians will lose on reinforcements if anything, but if they play smart, they can make reinforcements less of an issue. Think of reinforcements as time, basically, because they extend your team's time in-game. Thus, if you've only got 16% reinforcements left, but there's only 3:00 on the clock, you're fine as long as you defend from your strongest position.
Upvote
0
I would much rather go with the second option above. Too often after loosing a big objective, you get several Russian players wanting to bail all the way to the East Bank, bypassing the objectives in between, with more than 30 minutes to go and more than 50% of reinforcements left. Most of the time it makes more sense to me to hold the ones inbetween also, at least temporarily.
On another note, I still have Russian players arguing with me saying it is not possible to retake any objectives back, including the Village CP and AT Gun position. Yes you can!!!! Try it!! Look at your objective map and Read!!!
Upvote
0
Yeah, I'd prefer a more organized team, with a small squad of guys to put up a resistance (say, maximum of five) at the "middle" cap points. The benefit of this is that (a) it slows down the germans and (b) it gives your teammates time to get set up in the real defensive positions.
The thing is, IF you're going to do this, you need to have it clearly decided before the strategy is executed, and the whole team has to be in agreement. In other words, you don't want 10 guys hanging at the middle cap point while only 6 retreat, or worse yet, NO ONE retreats, and you all just get bled out at the middle cap point. That serves no one. So, the better way to go is to have a few people say "We'll do it, everyone else fall back" and then everyone else actually falls back.
If you can't get that kind of agreement, you're better off just running back and reinforcing the lines or the east bank. At least taht way you'll be one less soldier getting killed in the middle ground, and one more soldier dug in and ready to defend.
The thing is, IF you're going to do this, you need to have it clearly decided before the strategy is executed, and the whole team has to be in agreement. In other words, you don't want 10 guys hanging at the middle cap point while only 6 retreat, or worse yet, NO ONE retreats, and you all just get bled out at the middle cap point. That serves no one. So, the better way to go is to have a few people say "We'll do it, everyone else fall back" and then everyone else actually falls back.
If you can't get that kind of agreement, you're better off just running back and reinforcing the lines or the east bank. At least taht way you'll be one less soldier getting killed in the middle ground, and one more soldier dug in and ready to defend.
Upvote
0
Played this Friday night & the runssians were being creamed by the axis sitting to the left of spawn in their tanks & people carriers. (final line by river I believe), I spawned a number of times in the round fox hole just to be mown down by the axis guns.
Lovely map though but could do with some more anti tank personel on the russians as most of the game as the MG all I saw was the tanks etc.
By the time the axis infantry had reached the cap points the tanks had already taken them so we were just being pushed back in [SIZE=-1]blitzkrieg[/SIZE] fashion.
Think the water should have deep sections that armour & infantry cannot cross as they are comming across far out to the left & then swinging back to the spawn locations. it is very unlikly that the allies would not have implemented some form of defensive barriers along the water line to slow/stop flanking manouvers by the enemy.
Finally trying to move up to counter the advance only introduces the you out of bounds death, which is a real pain in the arse. one minute you are in a building trying to slow them down move a yard or so & pow your dead.
Lovely map though but could do with some more anti tank personel on the russians as most of the game as the MG all I saw was the tanks etc.
By the time the axis infantry had reached the cap points the tanks had already taken them so we were just being pushed back in [SIZE=-1]blitzkrieg[/SIZE] fashion.
Think the water should have deep sections that armour & infantry cannot cross as they are comming across far out to the left & then swinging back to the spawn locations. it is very unlikly that the allies would not have implemented some form of defensive barriers along the water line to slow/stop flanking manouvers by the enemy.
Finally trying to move up to counter the advance only introduces the you out of bounds death, which is a real pain in the arse. one minute you are in a building trying to slow them down move a yard or so & pow your dead.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
On another note, I still have Russian players arguing with me saying it is not possible to retake any objectives back, including the Village CP and AT Gun position. Yes you can!!!! Try it!! Look at your objective map and Read!!!
There's not much point in re-capping it, you should put more effort into holding the east bank.
Upvote
0
nah. believe me, as a german player on that map 1/2 the time, it's a total PITA when the russians re-cap the Vill CP and/or the AT guns. it keeps the game fluid. Remember, once the germans cap past the AT guns (the bank on the german side of the river, THEN those 2 places are NOT re-capable.
So, while they are in play, the russians are winning. Also, IIRC, at that stage of the game where the Vill CP and AT guns are in play, the russian spawn is alot closer to those 2 spots than the german spawns.
something to think about.
Upvote
0
I think i'm just a really defensive player when i'm defending, i really feel uncomfortable defending on exposed ground like the AT guns. It's so difficult the tanks get knocked out so easily and the infantry only have a few wimpy sandbags, one artillery salvo usualy liquidates the defense of the AT guns. I just like the idea of the impreginable defensive lines with a 2 PTRDS and 2 MG's and dug in tanks and riflemen picking off foot soldiers. It just makes me feel safe when i've got three guys in the bunker with me and there's artillery all around but none of it can touch me.
Upvote
0
Recapturing the Village or AT guns is pretty much pointless. There is far too much open ground for a proper defense, unless the russians bog down the buildings with infantry. But all that would take is a few places of explosives (satchels and grenades) and there goes a few percent of reinforcements in a single wave. Just cover the east bank. Far easier for a defensive line, especially when there is high communication.
The benefits of a covered defense are just too many to mention. I doubt that a german team could crack a defense with AT guns on either side, followed by machinegunners, and tankers coordinating with the infantry over enemy halftrack and tank positions. Artillery is not a hassle except for the tanks on the defensive side. You can hold the german armor for over 20 minutes with 15%-30% reinforcements. You can't do that at the Village or AT guns.
The benefits of a covered defense are just too many to mention. I doubt that a german team could crack a defense with AT guns on either side, followed by machinegunners, and tankers coordinating with the infantry over enemy halftrack and tank positions. Artillery is not a hassle except for the tanks on the defensive side. You can hold the german armor for over 20 minutes with 15%-30% reinforcements. You can't do that at the Village or AT guns.
Upvote
0
I would beg to differ on not recapping the Village and AT Guns. Every battle and situation is different and they should be treated as such. There are times were it can be done with little loss of Russian life. In doing so, you greatly slow down the German's advance. There are other times where to try would do nothing but waste reinforcements.
So...to always try to recap the Village and AT Guns is incorrect and to say it is always pointless to recap the Village and AT Guns is also incorrect.
In any case (IMHO), always retreating to the East Bank instead of trying when its possible to successfully recap the objectives just means I am going to be mostly stuck sitting in those trenches for 20-30 minutes.
So...to always try to recap the Village and AT Guns is incorrect and to say it is always pointless to recap the Village and AT Guns is also incorrect.
In any case (IMHO), always retreating to the East Bank instead of trying when its possible to successfully recap the objectives just means I am going to be mostly stuck sitting in those trenches for 20-30 minutes.
Upvote
0
IMHO Berezina is one of the few maps where teamwork is required from BOTH sides.
To be honest, I'd like to see the Russian reinforcements upped by about 50%. They're so low now that the best strategy is to completely abandon everything in front of the 2nd line just to preserve casualties. I've played this map quite a few times, and the only Russian victories I've seen were miracles (where they were out of reinforcements but the time ran out while the Germans were capping the last obj).
I'll restate my desire to drop the Russian tanks and add AT guns as soon as it is feasable. Tanks assaulting trenches should heavily favor the infantry.
To be honest, I'd like to see the Russian reinforcements upped by about 50%. They're so low now that the best strategy is to completely abandon everything in front of the 2nd line just to preserve casualties. I've played this map quite a few times, and the only Russian victories I've seen were miracles (where they were out of reinforcements but the time ran out while the Germans were capping the last obj).
I'll restate my desire to drop the Russian tanks and add AT guns as soon as it is feasable. Tanks assaulting trenches should heavily favor the infantry.
Upvote
0
The first line is perfectly holdable!
Upped 50 percent! That's crazy, that's far too much, the re-inforcements are fine!
Upped 50 percent! That's crazy, that's far too much, the re-inforcements are fine!
Upvote
0