The Ageless Battle: ClownCar vs Tank - Topgear

[JudgeMental]

I'm back, and I'm chilled out, lol.

As far as fuel types is concerned. It is helpful to be able to use just about any combustable in your tank, without making any changes at all. Especially JP8, which is thoroughly abundant in US Army logistics, and what the M1, Blackhawk, Apache, etc. all run on natively.

I am having trouble finding the reference to blue on blue percentages ("...especially the Abrams"). To be fair, the Ch II made its first real combat debut in Operation Iraqi Freedom, so I was comparing the two tanks just using that conflict as a reference.

Of the 120 Challenger II tanks deployed in Operation Iraqi Freedom, I found that only one Challenger II has ever been completely destroyed due to friendly fire. A case in which another Challenger II accidentally attacked its frontal armor with a HESH (high explosive, squash head) round and blew the turret off.

Of the about 1000 M1A1/A2s deployed in OIF, I also found that only one M1A1/A2 has ever been destroyed due to friendly fire. I couldn't find any details about the encounter, I assume there were casualties.

So I don't really see how the percentage thing works out...

If you will allow it, I would guess the US has had a little more experience and warfare doctrine evolution with regard to tanks since WWII.

Actually, there have been a few other blue on blue instances involving M1s, but I don't think any of them ended with a disabled M1, let alone destroyed, so I don't see why those should really count if no one was hurt and the tanks kept rolling (if you want to count it, count how many blue on blues there were and factor it in the percentage I guess, I don't think it will make a huge difference).

This brings up another point I am confused on. I have heard it generally stated that the Ch II was the most durable tank in the world. But a HESH round (which is less lethal than most SABOT rounds I thought) lops its turret off. Meanwhile I read a report where an M1A1 took two HEAT and one SABOT round from 3 T-72's 125mm cannons at 700m without any effect. Then it destroyed all three of the T72s (the last one hid behind a sand berm, but the M1 just shot through the hill). Indeed, M1s have survived direct hits from second generation sabot DU rounds from other M1s without blinking. This may be due to the M1's armor system that incorporates dupleted uranium webbing with its chobham armour (a huge factor). Also, the M1's turbine engine delivers 1500hp while weighing 2500lbs. The leopard's diesel engine delivers 1500hp while weighing over 14,000lbs, wow. So the M1 can concentrate more weight on protection.

That was all back in 2003. Todays M1A2s have BFTs (Blue Force Trackers) that display the location of all the friendly forces, new DU armor, and Third generation DU kinetic energy penetrator rounds, among other cool things I've forgotten. It turns out the new DU SABOT round is generally considered the most powerful anti armor round in the world, even more powerful than the Leopard's Tungsten round fired from its L55 cannon.


So if you cant tell I'm a huge tank fan, especially the M1 series. So I'm biased, but I think its justified.

In summary, I'm glad we're having this debate between the M1, CH II, and the Leopard. I guess it means all three tanks are a pretty close match, and that's a good thing between friends.

...by the way, I looked all day for the actual number of M1s deployed in Operation Iraqi Freedom (Operation Telic, to the British), and I can't find it. I suspect it is lower than the almost 2000 M1s used in Operation Desert Storm in 1991 (thus the "about 1000" reference). If anyone knows I would be grateful.

Confused now.
A blue on blue is a blue on blue whether anyone gets killed or not and to say that they don't count if everyone is OK?? mm puzzled now.
As I stated earlier, you made a very good and valid point by bringing the crew into the equation but that statement about blue on blue IS worrying.
Now then, on to the blue on blue involving the CR2. If memory serves it was a QRL tank and was engaged at 4000 meters by another Challenger2. It fired 2 rounds of HESH (a round that we in the UK percevere with though everyone else 'knows' its worthless) and detached the turret.
Anyone can get "lucky", its just a tragic shame that a shot like that was fired by a friendly callsign. The exact details of the incident are obviously classified though it has been stated that the target tank crew were working on the turret of their tank, if they were restowing ammo it may have had an effect.
Now then, survivability, during Telic:
CR2 hit by several RPG's one of which tracked it, it was then hit by many more RPG's and ATGW's, heavy recovery was sent forward and the tank recovered with ALL crew OK.
From Defense Update:

Friendly fire destroyed at least one US Army M1A2 Abrams MBT in OIF. According to a briefing by Lt Colonel Bob Lovett, prepared for the US Armor Center Ft Knox Kentucky, a tank of B Troop 3rd Squadron 7th Cavalry Regiment was knocked out at night 24/25 March near Najaf. First investigation in the field suspected the 'kill' as result of enemy action firing
the new Russian Kornet ATGW, but further examination revealed that the damage was from a 25mm Bushmaster cannon, firing eight AP-DU rounds into the rear engine compartment penetrating the engine grills. The same report mentioned another M1A2 Abrams damaged by unidentified source, possibly another US tank firing a 120mm round.
This other incident reminds of a similar one during the final stages of Desert Storm. On February 27, 1991, 3rd Brigade 2nd US Armored Division was engaged in a night battle in southern Iraq against the Republican Guard, when two rocket propelled grenades hit a M1A1 Abrams, inflicting no damage. The crew of another tank mistook the impacting flashes in their thermal sights, for enemy gun fire and immediately targeted the source. The 120mm DU round penetrated the tank with catastrophic fire results, killing the crew. This incident, among others, triggered instant Pentagon action to solve the problem and the result was the development of the (alas unfortunate) Battlefield Combat Identification System, (BCIS).
My point about Blue on Blues remains by percentage the American had far more than we did. Including firing several hundred rounds at a small UK unit, a squadron from 36 Engineer Regiment (a unit I was attached to), thankfully their accuracy did not match their 'enthusiasm'.
If you include ALL instances, not just fatalities, it makes scary reading.
Personally I have no axe to grind one way or another, my point is, that tragically in war accidents happen, whether they be the 2 UK Warrior APC's mistakenly engaged by A10's during Op Granby causing our greatest loss of life in one action in the conflict, or one of our aircraft shot down by a Patriot Battery while returning from a mission on Op Telic. It just scares me that as a percentage (as stated originally) these incidents are far higher in US forces than UK forces. My apologies if this was not made clear.
The fuel point has been visited and revisited, in the UK infrastructure at present we know that 1 regiment requires 1 type of fuel, not whatever tanker happens to be nearest and that works for us though I do appreciate that multi fuel gives you more options.
Oops nearly forgot, I am concerned with your weight estimate as regards pack weight. I couldn't find exact weights but I know that the Leopard pack weight is for the complete power pack including engine,transmission, coolant group, fan group etc. Is the weight you quoted for an Abrams the engine weight or the pack weight?.
​

Friendly fire in the U.S. military

The Pentagon estimates of U.S. friendly fire deaths, with percentage of total US deaths:

• World War II: 21,000 (16%)
  • second-highest-ranking U.S. loss of the war, General Simon Bolivar Buckner, Jr.
  • Sinking of the Surcouf. This was initially attributed to a collision with the US Freighter Thompson Lykes, but a later report stated that theSurcouf was mistaken for a U-boat and destroyed by US planes. Which event occured is disputed by historians.
  • Sinking of the USS Dorado (SS-248) by US plane.
  • Damage to the USS Atlanta (CL-51) by USS San Francisco.
• Vietnam war: 8,000 (14%)
• Gulf War: 35 (23%)
• Invasion of Afghanistan (2002): 4 (13%) *note* fatalities were Canadian Soldiers, not American. Caused when a US fighter pilot dropped a 500 lb (228 kg) bomb while Canadian soldiers were performing a live fire exercise on April 17, 2002 [1]

 

[Recce]

Of the 120 Challenger II tanks deployed in Operation Iraqi Freedom, I found that only one Challenger II has ever been completely destroyed due to friendly fire. A case in which another Challenger II accidentally attacked its frontal armor with a HESH (high explosive, squash head) round and blew the turret off.

Confused now.
Now then, on to the blue on blue involving the CR2. If memory serves it was a QRL tank and was engaged at 4000 meters by another Challenger2. It fired 2 rounds of HESH (a round that we in the UK percevere with though everyone else 'knows' its worthless) and detached the turret.
Anyone can get "lucky", its just a tragic shame that a shot like that was fired by a friendly callsign. The exact details of the incident are obviously classified though it has been stated that the target tank crew were working on the turret of their tank, if they were restowing ammo it may have had an effect.

I remember listening to one of the surviving crewmen talk about the "incident". From what I remember, his platoon / company had stood down for the night. I expect all the vehicles would have been in hull down positions or in dead ground. The survivor (I'm sorry that I can't remember his name) had finished his turn on watch in the turret and had gone to sleep on the hull of the vehicle. The first hit blew him off the hull and he was set alight. While he was being tended to by someone else in the platoon when there was a 2nd explosion. Two other crewmen, Stephen Allbutt and David Clarke, were killed in the incident.

Searching the web, I have found 1 definite statement (from a Canadian soldier) that the HESH round exploded through an open hatch on the tank, which resulted in the destruction of the tank and the death of the 2 crewmen.

 

[JudgeMental]

I remember listening to one of the surviving crewmen talk about the "incident". From what I remember, his platoon / company had stood down for the night. I expect all the vehicles would have been in hull down positions or in dead ground. The survivor (I'm sorry that I can't remember his name) had finished his turn on watch in the turret and had gone to sleep on the hull of the vehicle. The first hit blew him off the hull and he was set alight. While he was being tended to by someone else in the platoon when there was a 2nd explosion. Two other crewmen, Stephen Allbutt and David Clarke, were killed in the incident.

Searching the web, I have found 1 definite statement (from a Canadian soldier) that the HESH round exploded through an open hatch on the tank, which resulted in the destruction of the tank and the death of the 2 crewmen.

Thanks for that Recce, I didn't have anything definetive so wouldn't post it. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Wolfstuka]

You realise its a setup, in the clip Australia is labeled as North Korea

Unless i missed your sarcasm lol

Ya I know it's a setup thats why i said "North Korea" instead of North Korea.I was referring to Australia being labeled as North Korea ofcourse.It is still horribly pathetic though that they didn't realize that it was a setup.That just shows that they have no idea about where any country is located on a map or even what it looks like.