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A more realistic AT and Engineer loadout?

BooBoo

Grizzled Veteran
Jan 25, 2006
53
7
Australia
My suggestion for the loadout of engineers and anti tank troops.
German.Anti-tank:
3 x Panzerfaust(1943 0nwards)
2-3 x Hollowcharge magnetic mines eg HHL3 (42 onwards)
2 x Grenades
MP40
The Magnetic mine should be an option to the panzerfaust,with the proper arming and placing animation when close enough to the tank.
Engineer:2 x Satchel charge(When the map requires doors and bunkers to be blown.One charge should be enough to disable a tanks tracks or engine)
2 x Tellermine(from early in the war capable of disabling a tank's tracks and engine)
2 x Multi-head hand grenades(were an effective improvisation early in the war onwards in disabling tanks when nothing else was available)
1 x Bag of 4 Grenades(standard load out 2 nades)
MP40
Pistol
The Tellermine,Multi-head grenade and Bag of 4 grenades should be an option to the satchel charge when map dictates its requirement.Troopers will only be able to choose one of the above devices.These devices to have the apropriate animations of placing mines on tracks or hull when very close.

Russians:Anti-tank:
Anti tank rifle
Panzerfaust when available (later war)
2 x grenades
pistol
Engineer:
2 x Satchel charges
Molotov cocktails (option)
1 x bag of 4 nades( 2 standard)
SMG
Pistol
Russian personel AT equipment was lacking in comparison to the germans but they relied heavily on Anti-tank cannons,but until they are introduced in game more T-34's and AT rifles will do.
Also atm a single Satchel charge should not be able to destroy 2 tanks side by side or even one as I have seen on numerous occasion.
 
I agree totally with this, as a very minimum we should see satchel charges disable tanks and not destroy them. I got written documentation of engineers trying to destroy a KV-1 with explosives and not slightly damaging it.

So watching a single satchel change thrown on the ground next to a tank and watching it explode makes me just roll my eyes.
 
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I agree but I still don't like the idea of having three panzerfausts and an MP40 with a full complement of ammunition. As we have it now the fausts themselves are actually a little underpowered, I'd say for late war German AT troops we should upgrade the lethality of the panzerfaust to be more realistic and give each troop only one each.

I totally agree with the idea of giving '42 troops gear from that period and such, it would be crazy fun trying to take out a tank with a magnetic mine or panzerwurfemine (sp?).

On the Russian side though I think that the AT rifle at least needs more ammunition, on that I remember site I read an AT rifleman's story and he said that between he and his assistant they had the single AT rifle, 200 rounds of 14.5mm ammo AND two PPSh41 sub machineguns (one each!). They also had spotting gear as well. Since we don't have an assistant class I would like to see the AT rifleman given at least double the ammo he starts with now, because I especially find that you can run out entirely quite easily, I'd also like soldiers to be able to resupply him as they do with the machineguns. Because honestly if we can have soldiers resupplying the LMG's to make up for not having a dedicated assistant class then why not do the same for the AT class?
 
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No, RO is not Team Fortress, so I dont agree.

Though:
On the Russian side though I think that the AT rifle at least needs more ammunition, on that I remember site I read an AT rifleman's story and he said that between he and his assistant they had the single AT rifle, 200 rounds of 14.5mm ammo AND two PPSh41 sub machineguns (one each!). They also had spotting gear as well. Since we don't have an assistant class I would like to see the AT rifleman given at least double the ammo he starts with now, because I especially find that you can run out entirely quite easily, I'd also like soldiers to be able to resupply him as they do with the machineguns. Because honestly if we can have soldiers resupplying the LMG's to make up for not having a dedicated assistant class then why not do the same for the AT class?

Maybe only one Submachinegunner per 1 AT rifle on map can resupply AT-Soldier because not all soldiers with SMG have ammo for PTR.
 
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My suggestion for the loadout of engineers and anti tank troops.

German.Anti-tank:
3 x Panzerfaust(1943 0nwards)
2-3 x Hollowcharge magnetic mines eg HHL3 (42 onwards)
2 x Grenades
MP40

The Magnetic mine should be an option to the panzerfaust,with the proper arming and placing animation when close enough to the tank.

Engineer:

2 x Satchel charge(When the map requires doors and bunkers to be blown.One charge should be enough to disable a tanks tracks or engine)
2 x Tellermine(from early in the war capable of disabling a tank's tracks and engine)
2 x Multi-head hand grenades(were an effective improvisation early in the war onwards in disabling tanks when nothing else was available)
1 x Bag of 4 Grenades(standard load out 2 nades)
MP40
Pistol

The Tellermine,Multi-head grenade and Bag of 4 grenades should be an option to the satchel charge when map dictates its requirement.Troopers will only be able to choose one of the above devices.These devices to have the apropriate animations of placing mines on tracks or hull when very close.

I think the anti-tank soldier should carry only one panzerfaust. Which should also be deadlier than it is right now. This would force the soldier to use his panzerfaust wisely, at proper range and on immobile targets. Instead of using the first faust to ajust aiming and then kill with the other 2.

I think the satchels and grenade bundles should only immobilize tanks unless they end up under the hull. Then it could kill it.
 
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On the Russian side though I think that the AT rifle at least needs more ammunition, on that I remember site I read an AT rifleman's story and he said that between he and his assistant they had the single AT rifle, 200 rounds of 14.5mm ammo AND two PPSh41 sub machineguns (one each!). They also had spotting gear as well. Since we don't have an assistant class I would like to see the AT rifleman given at least double the ammo he starts with now, because I especially find that you can run out entirely quite easily, I'd also like soldiers to be able to resupply him as they do with the machineguns. Because honestly if we can have soldiers resupplying the LMG's to make up for not having a dedicated assistant class then why not do the same for the AT class?

That's right, especially on Berezina, the PTRD runs out of ammunition way too quickly. You are always forced to risk your neck while running to the ammo dump.
 
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The PTRD should get more ammo. At the same time, its damage should be sharply nerfed. Something along the lines of 49 rounds with one in the chamber, if not even more. But it should be incapable of getting a one-hit kill on ANY tank from the front. Or even sending them in to 'yellow' status. Of course, for it to be useful, the devs would need to implement a much more complex damage model, complete with killing the people inside the tank.

The panzerfaust, on the other hand, should be limited to one per soldier. It should also be a one-hit kill on absolutely any tank. There shouldn't be any one class that gets them, either. Instead, just have a pick-up point for panzerfausts at the spawn, with no respawn time for them. The AT class for Germans would instead get anti-tank grenades and maybe even mines.

Satchels, of course, need to be heavily nerfed as well. A 3 kg bag of explosives thrown five feet in front of a Tiger would not absolutely obliterate it. Hell, the HE round for the IS-2 has exponentially more explosive power.

The thing I would like to see is a lot of disabling of tanks and making them combat ineffective, and less outright destruction. Of course, I'm not even sure if this is even possible, and I know I sure as hell can't code it.

Also, I'm almost positive that a regular rifleman on the eastern front didn't run around with PTRD rounds in his pockets.
 
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Also, I'm almost positive that a regular rifleman on the eastern front didn't run around with PTRD rounds in his pockets.
Yeah and not every soldier ran around with spare pan magazines for the DP or belts for the German MG's. Yet they can resupply in Ost to make up for the fact that there is no assistant/ammunition bearer class. So explain to me how having regular grunts capable of resupplying the AT rifleman due to lack of a dedicated assistant does not slot right in with this logic???
 
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Here's my ideal loadouts for this (dates in orange are estimated because I don't have exact deployment info) Any pickup item occupies weapon slot number 6. Two different types of "pickup" items cannot be carried at the same time.

German AT soldier
(39-42)Panzerbushe 39 ATR with 50 rounds of ammo, pistol, binoculars (no artillery)
(43+)Panzershrek with 3 rounds of ammo, pistol

Available for pickup at German ammo depots:
(39+)Satchel charges (which need vastly toned down in the armor damaging department) Max loadout: 1
(39+)GeballteLadung(Bundle of 6 Nades, probably somewhat less effective than the satchel charges vs vehicles) Max Loadout: 1
(43+)German HEAT Hand Grenade (looks like a big dart): max loadout: 2
(43+)German Magnetic HEAT mine. Max Loadout: 1
(43+)Panzerfaust 30 or 60. Max Loadout: 1
(44+)Panzerfaust 90. Max Loadout: 1


Russian AT solder
(41+)PTRD with 20 rounds of ammo, pistol, and binoculars (no Artillery)
(42+)PTRS with 20 rounds of ammo, pistol, and binoculars (no Artillery)

Available for pickup at Russian ammo depots:
(39+)Satchel Charges (see above) Max Loadout 1
(43+)Russian HEAT hand Grenade (trails a canvas streamer). Max Loadout 2


Those are just off the top of my head.

The thing to remember is that the items I listed as "pickups" were not generally assigned to one specific soldier like the PTRD and Panzershrek were. They were generally distributed among the men. So I think just placing them somewhere where everyone can get to them seems more appropriate.


The list is by no means complete. Molotov C0cktails, for example, could be available as pickup items as well.
 
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I would also like to see the role of the Engineer greatly expanded, in both weapon loadout and tasks.

We've had some good suggestions for weapon loadouts, so in terms of tasks I'd like to propose a few things that would need a corresponding animation, as well as specific inclusion and foresight on the part of mappers.

Engineers did not only blow things up. They constructed small bridges and help setup defenses among other tasks. I think it could be interesting if Engineers could salvage materials from wrecked vehicles (static or otherwise) and destroyed buildings to fashion small footbridges over lethal depth water or in between building windows. (Look at the center group of pictures in Anthony Beevors 'Fall of Berlin' for a picture of Sappers constructing a small bridge over chest high water.)

I also think it might be cool, if properly implemented, the ability to string barbed wire in places as an area of denial tactic. In doorways or between obstacles. (Maybe these barb wire emplacements could have a limited damage threshold, in that say, 5-6 grenades can remove them, or something to that effect since both sides dont always have satchels.)

You could even go so far as to give them minor Tank repairing capabilities. For example, if a tank has one tread knocked free, or its engine is disabled, an Engineer with enough time could attempt to fix the problem. This one is a stretch when compared to the first two suggestions, but I'm just throwing some ideas out there. I await the History Channel members and the comments about how this one is unrealistic.

In any case, I wouldnt want to see any of these implemented in the current maps because it might change things too much, but for maps of the future, I think these 'tasks' if added with thought could make for some interesting scenarios.
 
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Russian AT solder
(41+)PTRD with 20 rounds of ammo, pistol, and binoculars (no Artillery)
(42+)PTRS with 20 rounds of ammo, pistol, and binoculars (no Artillery)

Available for pickup at Russian ammo depots:
(39+)Satchel Charges (see above) Max Loadout 1
(43+)Russian HEAT hand Grenade (trails a canvas streamer). Max Loadout 2

I agree with all your Russian suggestions, especially PTRS!!!!

I don't agree with the panzershreck being added or the german anti-tank grenades, i feel satchels and the panzerfausts will do.
 
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I would also like to see the role of the Engineer greatly expanded, in both weapon loadout and tasks...

REZ... these are all great ideas. The only problem is that most of them require a lot more time to perform than what we have during a "map."


The tasks you outline remind me of the Engineer role in Wolfenstein Enemy Territory, which was a very fun game that had some cool innovations. But it was a bit on the unrealistic side when compared to RO.


I would like to see more "blow stuff up" missions for Engineers as well. For example, DoD had a map where you had to assault a bunker. The bunker door would open up for the defenders (so they could get in and out). But for the attackers to get in, they'd have to blow it up. I'm not sure if you can assign a "side" to a mover so only one side can open it, while the other side can destroy it. I'm guessing not, since there are many maps where the "blowable" door isn't movable by ANYONE.


Some barbed wire would be cool on some assault maps. Somehow you'd make it non-colliding, but it would do damage to you as you cross it (and slow you down as well).
 
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I don't agree with the panzershreck being added or the german anti-tank grenades, i feel satchels and the panzerfausts will do.

My thinking that if it was in the war (and relatively common), it should be available in the game. I'm not saying that they should ALWAYS be available, nor should EVERY option I listed there be available.

But the loadout of the German "Anti-tank" soldier wasn't a Pfaust. It was the Shrek. The Fausts were issued to the grunts.

Satchel charges also need to be "nerfed" bigtime. They're far too effective now.
 
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Yeah, my main ideas, the ones I've had my mind on for awhile, were the small debris bridge, and barb wire placement. (Tank repair was a stretch... you're right, it would take way too much time.)

The maps would need to designed with these things in mind, but what lead me to think of these features was 'how do we add a bit of randomness to maps while not being totally random, while adding additional functionality to the Engineer role'. Right now everyone knows which street or building you are going to come through, they know right where to hide, but if the map was designed for it, you could make small bridges at different points to create new routes, and/or also setup barbed wire to create a chokepoint or a temporarily (until destroyed) unpassable section.

The barbed wire would be relatively quick to setup. The Sapper could have one roll of up to 10-20 feet of wire. He would have to attach one end, and then walk over and attach the other for it to be set. Each side would require a 20-30 second animation to be complete, all the while you are commited to that action. Meaning once you start to place the wire, you cant stop to shoot. Once the wire is set you can shoot through it, but cant walk through it, or you could make it so you can walk through it, but very slowly and you would be taking damage as well. The wire could be destroyed with maybe 5-6 grenades or one satchel. This could actually be implemented in most current maps for steering the opposition into a certain area, or just plain scrubbing time off of the clock from a defensive point of view.

Small bridges might be harder to do. My first idea was to be able to 'pick up' one piece of debris from a destroyed vehicle (non-static) and up to three pieces from destroyed (static) vehicles/buildings. These pieces could be used for building makeshift footbridges over lethal depth water or as ramps over walls, or in between elevated windows in buildings to create new routes. Engineer class only.
 
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Yeah seriously dude HL2: DM runs absolutely GREAT on those small maps that came with it

It goes without saying that it would run even better on a gigantic tank map I mean really now

We all know how good source is at rendering gigantic, open spaces

seriously source physics are like better than every other physics rendering system available

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
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Russians:Anti-tank:
Anti tank rifle
Panzerfaust when available (later war)

I agree with everything expect 2 points:

1. The Soviets should Never get Panzerfausts. They used them so limitedly (if ever) that it is unrealistic to add them to the Soviet load out.
2. The "Geballte Ladung" (bunched grenade) could not only disable but kill Soviet tanks if thrown at the right area. (The top of tank engine compartment) This is because German grenades unlike Allied grenades are explosive based so naturally if you bunch a lot of them together they will kill a tank. (This is the same theory behind satchal charges)

In addition to this I'd like to see:

1. German anti-tank (Panzerfaust Soldiers) armed with a k98 (there are various pics of AT soldiers with k98s) or an MP 40 as a main gun.
2. In 1943 the Panzerfaust 30 and or Faustpatrone should be added (earlier Panzerfausts)
3. Pre 1943 maps should have German anti-tank charges as well as German anti-tank rifles (if they are added)
4. Late war and in desperate conditions (1943+) should have Panzerfausts, Panzershrecks, (in 1944+) and explosive charges given to most German soldiers.
 
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1.The Soviets should Never get Panzerfausts they used them so limitedly (if ever)that its unrealistic to add them to the Soviet load out.

I was under the impression that the Soviets would reissue any panzerfausts they captured to their troops, since they were so superior to their own AT weapons. They even kept some captured panzerfaust factories in Poland running to produce more for their troops. While they wouldn't be present in large numbers, I don't think its unreasonable on late war (Jan-May 1945) maps for Russian AT infantry to get a single faust.
 
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