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WHAT IF...................a discussion

if the germans, "won" D-Day( driving the allies back into thee sea), they wouldnt have to take Units from the Ostfront to help out in France.
That would Lead to a stronger German resistance on the Ostfront.
But I doubt, that this could have stopped the russians.
The following is pure speculation:
The Western Allies wouldnt be able to but up another attack on france for at least 8-10 Months.
They might even consider western Europe as "Lost" for the upcoming Years.
Maybe Hitler and Stalin would meet to consider a seperate-peace, because of the huge losses on both sides. That would drive the Germans out of russia and would definetly divide Poland in two pieces. Dunno what would have happened to Bulgaria, Romania, Greece and Hungary.
If no peace was made soon, there would be a big chance that Hilter and Himmler(important!) would be assasinated in the upcoming years

No one will ever know ;)

oh, and oh what joy to see another what if threat......
 
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I'm sorry m8 if i am boring you with this thread ( and i say that with a little grief ) but you may have misunderstood me.
What i was trying to suggest was take any pivitol battle of your choice ( d-day being and eg ) and say what you think about how the campaign more to the point would have developed, obviously from the German perspective.
It's effects are something that we can never really tell.
"Cause an effect" to coin a phrase springs to mind so we will never know what impact this that or the other would have had on the war persay.

Please believe me when i say i am not trying to flame as i am not!, asi am not an admin (and so have not read every thread here.... IE : a forum troll ).
I am however an interested history buff interested in generating some interesting discussion.

I do though take you well said point about Europe being "Lost" for some considerable time after D-Day, something which i think would have had grievous consequences for the Allied cause.
We could possibly talk about this all week there are so many variations on "Cause an Effect" all the same lets keep this simple.........pick a campaign decide how it would have went forward if it had went another way.
 
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Thanks for all the interest, i have after seeing a previous thread see why you have all choosen not to take part in this.
I was only trying to disscuss this issue on a more limited way.
All the same i am dissapointed in the lack of interest as i was only trying to talk about this in a limited manner.........pity.

After further thought though Daskarma i do strongly dissagree about you point on Germany putting tropps on the Eastern front. It's very logical to me that they would have, being the only point really of contention @ that moment. Consider the fact too that they were beginning to understand their mistakes and rectifing them there!
The fact that Russia was moving so much equipment east hindered their abilities to fight back..........ok they did fight back well but how long do you really think the NKVD could have enforced their masters policies in the face of massive german advances during their summer campaigns?
 
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I just can't believe that they had dropped the nuke over Berlin. How stupid do you have to be that you drop a nuke right into the middle of Europe.

??

What makes the middle of europe so special?

Remember, that in 1945:
- Atomic bombs were only about 10 kilotons in yield
- Little or nothing was known about fallout and long term radiation effects

If Germany had still been actively resisting in the middle of 1945, I have no doubt they would have dropped a nuke on a german city.
 
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I just can't believe that they had dropped the nuke over Berlin. How stupid do you have to be that you drop a nuke right into the middle of Europe.
How stupid do you have to be to let your Sons fight to the death when there are other options at hand?

How stupid do you have to be to follow a ex-homeless bum into total annihilation. Especially a dark-haired self hating Jewish man who preaches the superiority of blonds and so called Aryans.... I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'de like to sell you.
 
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Let's get this back on track.

Let's take a look at Stalingrad, specifically Wintergeiwitter. There seems to me to be two interesting "possibilities":

1. What if Paulus had ordered a breakout to meet Manstein?
2. What if Manstein had cancelled Wintergeiwitter outright and abandoned 6th Armee earlier?

Case 1: Breakout

Conventional wisdom here seems to tend to the argument that 6A was in no condition for a breakout. Fuel and ordinance for vehicles was all but depleted, the men were half-starved and frozen, there were huge numbers of wounded, etc. Any signs of a break out would have triggered a mass attack by the encircling soviet forces. 6A might very well have been anihilated on the soviet steppes and all those forces involved in the seige would have been released against Manstein and Army Group Don much sooner, probably with dire consequences.

On the other hand, had even a few divisions worth of men managed to make it out of the trap, it might have been a significant morale boost for the germans. Or maybe not.

What do you think?

Case 2: Abandon 6th Armee

There are also many who believe that Manstein never felt Wintergeiwitter had a chance in the first place. The front was shattered. 6A was actually more valuable pinning soviet seige forces in place.

What if Manstein had immediately ordered a retreat? The soviets might have been hard pressed to follow it up with the seige in their rear. Manstein might have found the time to form a line much further east than where it eventually settled after the backhand blow. This in turn may have had a huge impact on the strategic situation pre-Kursk.

Politically, is it likely Manstein would have been able to survive abandoning 6A? What would have been the impact of Manstein being forced into retirement prior to Kursk?

What do you think?


Edit: Oh, and here's an interesting 3rd idea: What if the Soviets had not split their forces between Operations Uranus and Mars? Yes, it would have allowed the germans additional mobile reserves to commit to Stalingrad, but what impact would an additional 1,000,000 men have had on the soviet side of things?
 
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If the Italians had held on to Ethiopia, the Axis would have had access to real coffee instead of ground-up acorns and sh*t. The result would have been a far more industrious effort made by everyone, from factory worker to front-line grunt, resulting in German victory for sure. (At some point Hitler would have just slapped Mussolini and said,"Thanks for the cup o' joe, beeyatch!")
 
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Let's get this back on track.

Let's take a look at Stalingrad, specifically Wintergeiwitter. There seems to me to be two interesting "possibilities":

1. What if Paulus had ordered a breakout to meet Manstein?
2. What if Manstein had cancelled Wintergeiwitter outright and abandoned 6th Armee earlier?

Case 1: Breakout

Conventional wisdom here seems to tend to the argument that 6A was in no condition for a breakout. Fuel and ordinance for vehicles was all but depleted, the men were half-starved and frozen, there were huge numbers of wounded, etc. Any signs of a break out would have triggered a mass attack by the encircling soviet forces. 6A might very well have been anihilated on the soviet steppes and all those forces involved in the seige would have been released against Manstein and Army Group Don much sooner, probably with dire consequences.

On the other hand, had even a few divisions worth of men managed to make it out of the trap, it might have been a significant morale boost for the germans. Or maybe not.

What do you think?

Case 2: Abandon 6th Armee

There are also many who believe that Manstein never felt Wintergeiwitter had a chance in the first place. The front was shattered. 6A was actually more valuable pinning soviet seige forces in place.

What if Manstein had immediately ordered a retreat? The soviets might have been hard pressed to follow it up with the seige in their rear. Manstein might have found the time to form a line much further east than where it eventually settled after the backhand blow. This in turn may have had a huge impact on the strategic situation pre-Kursk.

Politically, is it likely Manstein would have been able to survive abandoning 6A? What would have been the impact of Manstein being forced into retirement prior to Kursk?

What do you think?


Edit: Oh, and here's an interesting 3rd idea: What if the Soviets had not split their forces between Operations Uranus and Mars? Yes, it would have allowed the germans additional mobile reserves to commit to Stalingrad, but what impact would an additional 1,000,000 men have had on the soviet side of things?

As far as 6A is concerned, I believe that if Paulas ordered a breakout immediatly after the encicrlement they had a very good chance of succes. They still had supplies and the men were not malnurished(sp) and not as many wounded as in the later months. That was the only time the 6A had any chance of breaking out succesfully, after that all hope was lost.

Operation Winter Storm was a waste of time, resources and manpower, imo. It did tie up considerable ammount of Russian units, 2 or 3 Armies I believe, and also got the Soviets worried so much so they sent their Armored reserves to stem the advance.

But by the time operation Winter Storm took place, the 6A contribution was holding now a massive ammount of Soviet troops in place. What should of happened was all the forces Manstein had available should of been used to establish a new front or stem the Soviet advance toard Rostov. Had he done so, the Soviets would of gotten as far, and wouldn't of cut off Army Group A in the Caucasus.

Of Course this is all hindsight anyway and at the time the German High Command believed they could pull it off. But in Mansteins book, he goes on to say it was a lost cause to try and rescue the 6A. Even he tried his best he knew it was a waste and the forces used could of been used better esle where.

Mansteins brilliant 'back-hand' blow as he called in the winter of 42-43 after the disaster showed the Germans were still capable of an effective, elestic defense. This manstein proved at this time. Even with limited forces and limited supplies, he managed to totally destroy 1 Soviet Army group and severly maul 2 others, who barely escaped an encicrlement. Only some of the Russian troops made it out without any of their equipment.

However, his elastic defense strategy was forbidden from then on by Hitler as he did not want to give up ground. However Mansteins strategy was the one that should of been adopted, trading space for time, and dealing the Soviets these back hand blows. Let them attack and then counter-attack, cutting off their advance.

I went a little off topic there, but in ties in with the over all strategy or events of that year and following year.

Zitadelle, Manstein proposed a defense, to let the Soviets attack first, and do what he did at the begining of the year, back-hand blow again. Let the Soviets attack, and fall back gradually, trading space for time, not to give up the land wholesale, but not to stand ground. This would slow down the Russian advance, while at the same time allowing German forces to fall back and save precious lives and resources. When the time was right, a counter-attack was to be carried out at the extended Russian flanks.

This probably would of been the best strategy for the Germans post Stalingrad. And as proven it did work, even with very limited forces. With the new reinforcments and tanks in summer 43, this strategy would of been perfect, imho.
 
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Let's get this back on track.

Let's take a look at Stalingrad, specifically Wintergeiwitter. There seems to me to be two interesting "possibilities":

1. What if Paulus had ordered a breakout to meet Manstein?
2. What if Manstein had cancelled Wintergeiwitter outright and abandoned 6th Armee earlier?

Case 1: Breakout

Conventional wisdom here seems to tend to the argument that 6A was in no condition for a breakout. Fuel and ordinance for vehicles was all but depleted, the men were half-starved and frozen, there were huge numbers of wounded, etc. Any signs of a break out would have triggered a mass attack by the encircling soviet forces. 6A might very well have been anihilated on the soviet steppes and all those forces involved in the seige would have been released against Manstein and Army Group Don much sooner, probably with dire consequences.

On the other hand, had even a few divisions worth of men managed to make it out of the trap, it might have been a significant morale boost for the germans. Or maybe not.

What do you think?

Case 2: Abandon 6th Armee

There are also many who believe that Manstein never felt Wintergeiwitter had a chance in the first place. The front was shattered. 6A was actually more valuable pinning soviet seige forces in place.

What if Manstein had immediately ordered a retreat? The soviets might have been hard pressed to follow it up with the seige in their rear. Manstein might have found the time to form a line much further east than where it eventually settled after the backhand blow. This in turn may have had a huge impact on the strategic situation pre-Kursk.

Politically, is it likely Manstein would have been able to survive abandoning 6A? What would have been the impact of Manstein being forced into retirement prior to Kursk?

What do you think?


Edit: Oh, and here's an interesting 3rd idea: What if the Soviets had not split their forces between Operations Uranus and Mars? Yes, it would have allowed the germans additional mobile reserves to commit to Stalingrad, but what impact would an additional 1,000,000 men have had on the soviet side of things?


What if paulus had made an attempted breakout?...........well my thought on this is simular to what Panzer Meyer said in respect of Paulus. I believe if he had tryed earlier on to send troops to attempt ( those who were still moblile ) a break out he may just have taken enough pressure off Manstein to open a corridor for at least some troops to make it out.
Yes this would have triggered and all out attack from the soviets BUt it would have saved some men and not have had the effect it had.

I say this with a certain amount of hesitation but i do feel sorry for, and feel a certain amount of the frustration the commanders felt at the front with Hitlers constant micro managing.
Just surprised that more attempts were not made on his life!
 
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The B-29 could have taken off from Soviet territory if those things had happened.

I can tell you for a fact that the Soviets would never have allowed allied aircraft on their soil. The Soviets infact went out of their way to keep Laison officers out of the USSR for any and ALL purposes never mind aircraft!

I think it highly unlikely that the US would have taken such enormous security risk.
Firstly transporting the "BOMB" to Russia and, two having it there in the first place.

Personally i would (as I'm sure the Allied high command did) taken enormous offence from this lack of courtacy as the Commies had their spies/officers over here!
There again the Allies were not stupid...................:rolleyes:
 
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