Help settling a dispute among 2 friends

[Panzer Meyer]

Stalingrad is considered one continues battle, so in the terms of battles, yes stalingrad wins hands down. Over a million dead on the Russian side, over 300,000 dead, wounded, missing and captured on the German side.

 

[Ruprecht13]

Give each friend a broken bottle & a cat-o-nine-tails and they can have their own reenactment of the bloodiest battle either of them will ever see.

 

[User Name]

Stalingrad is considered one continues battle, so in the terms of battles, yes stalingrad wins hands down. Over a million dead on the Russian side, over 300,000 dead, wounded, missing and captured on the German side.

Man...those numbers are hard to digest.

 

[Panzer Meyer]

Man...those numbers are hard to digest.

Its just insane to think about, I mean a over 1 million people dead in the span of 5 months on just one side. Thats 6,600 people a day that died for 5 months straight. (if my math was right). Thats counting the Soviet side only, and at 1 million people. I think it was a little more, 1.2 million I believe.

For the Germans it was actually over 500,000 (wrong numbers first), at least those are the estimates, they vary obviously. Anyway, as someone put it with the jets, it would be like crashing Twenty Two Boeing 747 into the ground every day. ( 747 carries about 300 passangers). That is crazy to put it like that...WOW.

So I'd say Stalingrad is still the bloodiest battle of all.

 

[Nappa_Rammstein]

Wouldn't Gettysburg be the bloodiest battle using Rifled muskets?

 

[Panzer Meyer]

Wouldn't Gettysburg be the bloodiest battle using Rifled muskets?

Doesn't matter using what. Its just about 'the battle'. I mean if you want to get technical like that, the battle of Cannea. Carthage against the Romans, Hannibals army managed to kill over 50,000 Romans in half a day or in a few hours really. And they used swords or spears mostly.

 

[Musketeer]

Lee's intent was to resupply and refit after taking the town of Gettysburg, then move to cut off Washington. His hope was not to capture the capitol, but to cut off supply and by that force the Union to come to terms. In other words, to exploit the Union's fixation on a defense of Washington. Unfortunately his plans were ruined when he was forced to engage at Gettysburg.

It is debatable as to how well Lee could have cut off DC given the size of the force there and how many addition forces would be diverted to it. Sitting in one place for the North to focus on is the last thing the Army of the Confederacy should have been doing. Especially outside DC where the already DC fixated northern leadership was certain to throw everything at it.

Either way though Lee may have not chose to start the fight at Gettysburg but he sure as hell chose to finish it there. The North was going nowhere and awaiting his charge and Lee obliged them by marching head first inot a meat grinder, just as classical military though of the time dictated. Taking the third day at Gettysburg may have won the South the field, it MAY have helped end the war sooner on terms better for the South but win or loose that day Lee committed to an action that was certain to bring about the destruction of a large portion of his army as certain as 2+2=4.

He would have been better off refusing to engage in major battles and ransaking the north. The North would then have had to pursue while the morale effect on the North would most likely have been pretty bad. Lincoln would almost certainly had to either sue for peace or loose his office anyway if Lee continued to ravege the north.

 

[Nappa_Rammstein]

You really Cant compare Gettysburg and Stalingrad, totally differant time frames ,example being that if the armies of World War 2 attacked like they did in the U.S. Civil war and not guerilla tatics then there would have been A LOT more dead during World War 2. That is like comparing Todays tech to 100yrs ago's tech you can't.

Sorry but i dont have the time atm to explain every thing I wrote.

 

[Panzer Meyer]

That doesn't matter, they were discussing bloodiest battle EVER. As in any time frame, at least he didn't specify a time frame that I am aware of.

So you might as well compare all the battle regardless of time frame or equipment. Like I said, if you compare Gettysburg to Cannea, the battle of Cannea is more bloody. In a few hours (the battle lasted not an entire day but more like half a day, was over by the afternoon) some 50,000 Romans died. The battle is said to have began during the sun rise and been over by the afternoon. So we can assume about 5-8 hours maybe. So in 8 hours 50,000 soldiers died. Gettysburg does not even come close where there were muskets and artillery. In Cannea the Romans and Hannibals army had swords and spears only.

So I'd think I call Cannea way bloodier than Gettysburg, especially with much inferior technology. If you want to go back even further you can look at the battle of Gaugamela (sp), Macedonians against the Persians. Some 40,000 Macedonians against a believed 250,000 Persians.

 

[Nappa_Rammstein]

I agree, but you still can't compare them just by how many died wether or not the OP wanted to.

 

[Jarlabanke]

Even if restricting it only to muskets etc, Gettysburg would still be less bloody than both Leipzig and Borodino fought by Napoleon, perhaps Waterloo and Jena-Auerstedt aswell.

 

[Russ Schulke]

Stalingrad / Red Army Casualties

Stalingrad / Red Army Casualties

Red Army Casualties, 1941-1945

Total Armed Forces Losses, June 1941- May 1945​

• Killed in battle or died during evacuation: 5,187,190​
• Mortally wounded (and died later): 1,100,327​
• Died of illness (non-battle): 541,920​
• Missing in action or captured: 4,455,620​
• Non-mortal wounds: 15,205,592​
• Non-mortal illness and frostbite: 3,138,556​
• Total Armed Forces Casualties: 29,629,205​

Equipment Losses, June 1941- May 1945​

• Tanks and self-propelled Guns: 96,500​
• Artillery: 218,000​
• Aircraft: 88,300​

Soviet Losses in the Major Battles of the War

The Defense of Kiev (July-September 1941): 700,564 casualties; 411 tanks, 28,419 artillery pieces, and 343 planes

Battle of Smolensk (July-September 1941): 344,926 casualties; 1,348 tanks, 9,290 artillery pieces, and 903 planes

The Defense of Moscow (September-November 1941): 658,279 casualties; 2,785 tanks, 3,832 artillery pieces, and 293 planes

Siege of Sevastopol (October 1941-July 1942): 200,481 casualties; no data on equipment losses

Rzhev-Vyazma Offensive (January-April 1942): 776, 889 casualties; 957 tanks, 7,296 artillery pieces, and 550 planes

Kharkov Offensive (May 1942): 277,190 casualties; 652 tanks, 1,646 artillery pieces, and n/a planes

Battle of Stalingrad (July-November 1942): 643,842 casualties; 1,426 tanks, 12,137 artillery pieces, and 2,063 planes

Stalingrad Offensive (November 1942-February 1943): 485,777 casualties; 2,915 tanks, 3,591 artillery pieces, and 706 planes

Rzhev-Sychevka Offensive (November-December 1942): 215,674 casualties; 1,655 tanks, n/a artillery pieces, and n/a planes

Kharkov-Belgorod Offensive (March-August 1943): 255,566 casualties; 1,864 tanks, 423 artillery pieces, and 153 planes

Battle of Kursk (May-July 1943):177, 847 casualties; 1,614 tanks, 3,929 artillery pieces, and 459 planes

Lower Dneipr Offensive (September-December 1943): 754,392 casualties; 2,639 tanks, 3,125 artillery pieces, and 430 planes

Leningrad-Novgorod Offensive (January-April 1944): 313, 953 casualties; 462 tanks, 1,832 artillery pieces, and 260 planes

Crimean Offensive (April-May 1944): 84, 819 casualties; 171 tanks, 521 artillery pieces, and 179 planes

Belorussian Offensive (June-August 1944): 770,888 casualties; 2,957 tanks, 2,447 artillery pieces, and 822 planes

Baltic Offensive (September-November 1944): 280,090 casualties; 522 tanks, 2,593 artillery pieces, and 779 planes

Budapest Offensive (October 1944-February 1945): 320,082 casualties; 1,766 tanks, 4,127 artillery pieces, and 293 planes

Vistula-Oder Offensive (January-February 1945): 194,191 casualties; 1,267 tanks, 374 artillery pieces, and 343 planes

East Prussian Offensive (January-April 1945): 584,778 casualties; 3,525 tanks, 1,644 artillery pieces, and 1,450 planes

Vienna Offensive (March-April 1945): 177,745 casualties; 603 tanks, 764 artillery pieces, and 614 planes

Berlin Offensive (April-May 1945): 361,367 casualties; 1,997 tanks, 2,108 artillery pieces, and 917 planes

Prague Offensive (May 1945): 52,498 casualties; 373 tanks, 1,006 artillery pieces, and 80 planes


Source:
Glantz, David M., and Jonathan House. When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler. (Lawrence, Kansas: UP of Kansas, 1995)
Glantz, David M. Kharkov 1942: Anatomy of a Military Disaster. (Rockville Centre, NY: Sarpedon, 1998)
Glantz, David M. Zhukov's Greatest Defeat: The Red Army's Epic Disaster in Operation Mars. 1942 (Lawrence, Kansas: UP of Kansas, 1999)


Russ

www.fireonthevolga.com

 

[Piron]

2 thoughts:
- In my opinion it is irrelevant to compare time frames, simply because of the number of people involved changed dramatically. In medieval times an army maybe had a few thousand soldiers, in 18th and 19th century tenthousands, in ww2 millions.
- Another confusing aspect is the definition of casualty. Whats a casualty: only the killed, or also the wounded, prisoners,...

 

[[CoFR]BooBoo]

In military terms a casualty is anyone who is rendered combat ineffective by whatever means.

 

[BuddyLee]

The battle of Thermopylea was the biggest ass-woopin' ever delivered by the losing side.

Some 1.5-2 million persians attacked Greece lead by their King Xerxes 1st. Initially 7,000 Greeks lead by 300 Spartans started the battle on the first day, by the third day the Spartens, and Thespians 1,000 strong stayed behind so the rest of the Army could make their escape.

The Presian suffered between 20,000 and 40,000+ KIA depending on who you ask.

 

[Panzer Meyer]

Red Army Casualties, 1941-1945

Total Armed Forces Losses, June 1941- May 1945​

• Killed in battle or died during evacuation: 5,187,190​
• Mortally wounded (and died later): 1,100,327​
• Died of illness (non-battle): 541,920​
• Missing in action or captured: 4,455,620​
• Non-mortal wounds: 15,205,592​
• Non-mortal illness and frostbite: 3,138,556​
• Total Armed Forces Casualties: 29,629,205​

Equipment Losses, June 1941- May 1945​

• Tanks and self-propelled Guns: 96,500​
• Artillery: 218,000​
• Aircraft: 88,300​

Soviet Losses in the Major Battles of the War

The Defense of Kiev (July-September 1941): 700,564 casualties; 411 tanks, 28,419 artillery pieces, and 343 planes

Battle of Smolensk (July-September 1941): 344,926 casualties; 1,348 tanks, 9,290 artillery pieces, and 903 planes

The Defense of Moscow (September-November 1941): 658,279 casualties; 2,785 tanks, 3,832 artillery pieces, and 293 planes

Siege of Sevastopol (October 1941-July 1942): 200,481 casualties; no data on equipment losses

Rzhev-Vyazma Offensive (January-April 1942): 776, 889 casualties; 957 tanks, 7,296 artillery pieces, and 550 planes

Kharkov Offensive (May 1942): 277,190 casualties; 652 tanks, 1,646 artillery pieces, and n/a planes

Battle of Stalingrad (July-November 1942): 643,842 casualties; 1,426 tanks, 12,137 artillery pieces, and 2,063 planes

Stalingrad Offensive (November 1942-February 1943): 485,777 casualties; 2,915 tanks, 3,591 artillery pieces, and 706 planes

Rzhev-Sychevka Offensive (November-December 1942): 215,674 casualties; 1,655 tanks, n/a artillery pieces, and n/a planes

Kharkov-Belgorod Offensive (March-August 1943): 255,566 casualties; 1,864 tanks, 423 artillery pieces, and 153 planes

Battle of Kursk (May-July 1943):177, 847 casualties; 1,614 tanks, 3,929 artillery pieces, and 459 planes

Lower Dneipr Offensive (September-December 1943): 754,392 casualties; 2,639 tanks, 3,125 artillery pieces, and 430 planes

Leningrad-Novgorod Offensive (January-April 1944): 313, 953 casualties; 462 tanks, 1,832 artillery pieces, and 260 planes

Crimean Offensive (April-May 1944): 84, 819 casualties; 171 tanks, 521 artillery pieces, and 179 planes

Belorussian Offensive (June-August 1944): 770,888 casualties; 2,957 tanks, 2,447 artillery pieces, and 822 planes

Baltic Offensive (September-November 1944): 280,090 casualties; 522 tanks, 2,593 artillery pieces, and 779 planes

Budapest Offensive (October 1944-February 1945): 320,082 casualties; 1,766 tanks, 4,127 artillery pieces, and 293 planes

Vistula-Oder Offensive (January-February 1945): 194,191 casualties; 1,267 tanks, 374 artillery pieces, and 343 planes

East Prussian Offensive (January-April 1945): 584,778 casualties; 3,525 tanks, 1,644 artillery pieces, and 1,450 planes

Vienna Offensive (March-April 1945): 177,745 casualties; 603 tanks, 764 artillery pieces, and 614 planes

Berlin Offensive (April-May 1945): 361,367 casualties; 1,997 tanks, 2,108 artillery pieces, and 917 planes

Prague Offensive (May 1945): 52,498 casualties; 373 tanks, 1,006 artillery pieces, and 80 planes


Source:
Glantz, David M., and Jonathan House. When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler. (Lawrence, Kansas: UP of Kansas, 1995)
Glantz, David M. Kharkov 1942: Anatomy of a Military Disaster. (Rockville Centre, NY: Sarpedon, 1998)
Glantz, David M. Zhukov's Greatest Defeat: The Red Army's Epic Disaster in Operation Mars. 1942 (Lawrence, Kansas: UP of Kansas, 1999)


Russ

[URL="http://www.fireonthevolga.com"]www.fireonthevolga.com[/URL]

Very nice!!! Thanks for that, as we can see, I'd say several Eastern Front battles take the prize as the bloodiest battle(s) of all time. Hands down!

 

[malice]

the somme should be included and maybe even be the winner if were just counting single day battles casualties.

The battle is best remembered there for its first day, 1 July 1916, on which the British suffered 57,470 casualties, including 19,240 dead

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Somme_(1916)

95% of the newfoundland regiment died that day.

you could also include Passchendaele where the allies lost 500,000 men and the germans 250,000 men over three a few months. Not the most ever but its still a massive number.

 

[Nappa_Rammstein]

Even if restricting it only to muskets etc, Gettysburg would still be less bloody than both Leipzig and Borodino fought by Napoleon, perhaps Waterloo and Jena-Auerstedt aswell.

Hmmmm i don't know much about Napoleaon and the wars he fought but in those battles you named did they use rifled muskets meaning they had a much larger area of fire?

 

[thedonster]

Gettysburg was the bloodiest battle of American history.

No, it wasn't. Antiedam (spelling? I'm not American) was the bloodiest day of the American Civil War and in American history.

 

[thedonster]

As far as the bloodiest battle in history, it's probably a toss up among the Somme, Verdun, and Stalingrad. All of them involved a million or more dead. Nothing in the Civil War remotetly compares to this as these were protracted pitched battles that went on for months, whereas Gettysburg took about 3 days.
Note that the Somme and Verdun ocurred at the same time.