The Machine guns

[Harry S. Truman]

And no, I'm not writing here because I can't use them as you claim, but the "bad" changes are just so visible after mod version. It's just silly to for you to say everything is perfect about MG's yet it's clear you don't have a clue how good the mod did MG's(at least compared to this).

You people love putting words in my mouth. I never claim that MG's are perfect. I do know that they are accurate and have controllable recoil. I've said numerous times I'd like to see a greater "supression effect". Although that is hardly realistic as "supression" would be different for each person. I really don't care how the "mod" did things, as we are not playing the mod.

 

[Rex]

Truman really is more spot on than most of you, and the document he cited about proper ro mg use is nearly exactly what i would have said. only thing i would have added is not to put yourself in a totally exposed position, like the very center of the front line.

and PLEASE do not keep saying that the german mg's were better in the mod, as in the mod days EVERYONE would complain about what a target you were if you were using an mg, that riflemen would just pick you off with pop up shots (a feature greatly reduced in ost) while you could not muster the accuracy on your mg. case in point, the mg42 was so hard to handle in the mod over long ranges that the best spot to set it up in RO-Berlin was the windows accross the street from southern apartments, BEHIND and VERY CLOSE to the russian advance into that objective. the position was virtually unflankable, and any russian that wanted to nail you from the street would have to stay still and aim for so long that you could easily pick him off. my mantra for the mg42 in the mod was that it was an excellent close to mid range weapon, not suited to cover long ranges from an exposed position.

in ost i use both the mg34 and mg42 religiously, and have gone up several times against dp28s and prevailed. YES the dp is more controllable, but it also has about half the rate of fire of either of the german mgs, a small mag, no barrel change potential, and no single fire mode. there are clearly trade offs going on here, and if you think that the german mgs should get all the dp's controllability AND all their own nifty features, well then i think you may have just a slight bias (not to mention a majority of the ppl posting in this thread have sigs with german machine gunners in them!)

mg is really much more a thinking mans weapon in RO than any of you may want it to be. finding a good position (a difficult place for enemy riflemen to hit you), getting ammo resupplies regularly, and changing your barrel often will yield great results.

yesterday evening (after free week ended so dont say i was just playing against noobs) i came into lyes krovy halfway into the last round. in the 5-10 mins that were left, with the germans still holding the first two objectives, i set up an mg34 in posten III looking down on the russian advance. even with smoke being thrown regularly, and me getting flanked by smger's, i managed 30-35 kills, dying only about 3 or 4 times. i will tell you that my effectiveness skyrocketed when i had a couple of buddies (riflemen to take care of difficult targets, smger to watch my back), as most of the times i got killed i was alone.

another major thing i discovered about the mgs, possibly even more about the 42 than the 34, is that you want to lead your target significantly. think about it like this: im going to send a volley of bullets downfield so that the player im firing on will simply run into a wall of lead. unlike a rifle, where each shot is spot on accurate under the right conditions, with an mg you cant shoot AT your target, you need to shoot where he is headed. give him a meter or so of a lead (short burst for 1 enemy, longer for several) and i guarantee you they will run into your bullets. this works for me almost every time, i highly recommend some of you practice with it and see if it gets you any results.

im not posting one of those "i own at this and you **** so shut up," im merely advising some of you to experiment with the mgs instead of resorting to an ideal of being that mg gunner at the top of the volga riverbank in the first russian level of call of duty 1. not gonna happen in RO. AND, if you remember correctly, those mg's, though romantic, couldnt hit you very effectively and all got killed by a sniper. mgers simply need to be smart, and get support from teammates. just like in the real german army, they didnt just send mgers out there alone to open up on the enemy, they a squad full of riflemen to support them and protect them from enemy fire. an mg is not a one man fortess after all, they were targets in real war as well.

really, even if you want to keep posting that the mg system should be improved (which i agree it certainly could be) give what i said an honest try for a couple of weeks. it will be frustrating at first but i think youll get results eventually.

 

[SinfulSaint]

There is lots of ideas how the machine gun sold act in the game.

But how many of you have actually shooting with a machine gun?

I have shooting with the FN-MAG 58 and the FN-Minimi.

cheers/
BUS

folks,

here's my 2 cents

while serving the mandatory army service in croatia i operated the M-53 7.9X57mm (which is nothing but ex yugoslav down to its very detail copy of MG-42) and fired god-knows-how-many-rounds. my comment follows subsequently:

in order to maintain high accuracy you have to shoot in short controllable bursts. everything else but 3-5 rounds bursts is useless and is for area denial and suppression purposes only! what's even more important is to support the weapon as hard as u can cause it kicks back badly!

hip shooting and bracing - yes, it is a "can do" thing while advancing in line with the rest of the troops, but difficult to operate and control since there's nothing to support it firmly like shoulder does when prone. you have to grab the bipod firmly and strap the sling around your shoulder. blowback's a *****!!!

to sum it all up: as for my point of view - yes, the game simulates it pretty closely although it seems to me that the real mccoy produces less recoil when fired.

hope this helps.

c u all!

 

[AceOfSpades]

I just played practice mode trying to control recoil for the MG42 and I did a good job at it, then I tried it online then the recoil was ultra high even when I pulled down on the mouse. Maybe it's because the place I was firing from online I had to stand. I'll go back to practice mode to see if there's recoil differences depending on your stance. So now the only thing I want changed is the cone-of-fire.

"So distinct and terrifying was the weapon, that the United States Army created training films to aid its soldiers in dealing with the psychological trauma of facing the weapon in battle."

Either the lack of fear-of-death or the cone-of-fire explain why suppressing is nearly impossible with the MG42.

That's really strange. In the trial, all the MG's felt recoilless to me, even when not pulling the mouse down in the opposite direction of the recoil. It's not my FPS either, I find it difficult to get the PPSh-41 on a tight leash.

 

[Oi!Oi!Oi!]

There is lots of ideas how the machine gun sold act in the game.

But how many of you have actually shooting with a machine gun?

I have shooting with the FN-MAG 58 and the FN-Minimi.

cheers/
BUS

I shot with these 2 back when I was in the Canadian Army.

FN-Mag (called C6 in the Canadian forces)

And the scoped Minimi (called C9 in the Canadian forces).

 

[jedinstven-o crni Wuk]

I found this on 2Manny's forum. I play on his server a lot. It's a pretty good MG guide. He explains exactly how I use the MG42.

http://2manny.com/forum/index.php?topic=139.0



Combine this with some smart placement and you will OWN guys. I use the 42 on Kongisplatz all the time and I can shoot guys when they are almost fogged out in the distance.

what you described, will only work that long in game, you face a skilled riflemen. Sorry, to maybe let dreams from your "super" mg bursting, maybe youre either playing always again, other riflemens, then i do in game, or youre just the best "good-like" mg guner from this game, who knows. But its not even as dangerous in game, as it shoud be or was in real live. And the "bullet penetration" i even will not realy mention here, since its a horse, more then dead ... I tried any tactic, from forums, even a long time back to the mod times and i tried REAL taktics, from german rifle squads, i have from sources in books and training material etc.

what bugs me, and probably many other players, is just the fact, about how the mg works in real, and how it does in game and that its about realism. So the game is "aiming" clearly for ralism, the developers have stated that, and even the game tells it, ok. Now we make clear that its all "semi-realism", but what kind of realism is it, when its even not posible to use the "most basic" rulles of squad/infantry fighting with mgs in game? I played a long time, the Day of Deafeat mod/retail game, and can cleary say, that the mgs there, what ever side, have been much more deadlier, then any MG in Red Orchestra, and players there REALY fear them most of the time (and them, who do not, die usualy). I can rember a time, i faced a corner, where a MG34 was around and started shooting, killing a player in front of me, it ended, that 8 of us waited on this courner for a slight second, till a sniper arived on the other side, of a window (if someone rembers the map, DoD.Jagd) and got a straigt clear shot on him, so we advanced further again the german position. Of course such moments are not happen always, cause when you face a mg, you try to get around.

But thats the difference to RO here! Cause when i face here a mg, around the courner, i just lean, with my rifle, ready in IS, shoting, if i miss, no problem, just repeating, till i hit him, most ofthe time, with a second shot, its over, or if i die, no problem at all, since another play will finsish the job, or i just dothe same again.

The lifespan of a mg ger in dod is near the triple of one in RO, not cause of the fact that you die faster here, but that its harder to kill others with the mg!

im never shotet in real life, but from all comments, people left here, that realy used, they near all say the same.

Not accurate enough

to big recoil.


ill stick with those people, that have experience in using that gun.

 

[Kurtz]

But thats the difference to RO here! Cause when i face here a mg, around the courner, i just lean, with my rifle, ready in IS, shoting, if i miss, no problem, just repeating, till i hit him, most ofthe time, with a second shot, its over, or if i die, no problem at all, since another play will finsish the job, or i just dothe same again.

I agree. MG's are only deadly at anything over ~50 yards if they don't know you're there and (foolishly) decide to run around in the open. When leaning around corners riflemen nearly instantly have perfect accuracy, while the mg can only hit the exposed rifleman by sheer luck in many cases. The game pretty much provides the player with control of a man who is a great rifle shot and a crappy machine gunner.

The game can't model a lot of things, like penetrating cover (a BIG factor in reality), or soldiers scared to get into a snapshooting contest with an mg for fear of losing some of their favorite part of their head. All these things make mg's an important factor in reality, but since they can't be modelled through various limitations, I think we should at least boost the accuracy a little bit to bring the mg's up to the level of importance that they had in reality.

 

[Harry S. Truman]

Well, believe what you want.

I know how they work and from what I've seen I doubt they will be changed. Go ahead, petition your asses off. The devs know what I'm talking about.

 

[turbografx16]

Wow what a cock.

 

[Munkie]

Wow what a genius.

fixed

 

[Rak]

You people love putting words in my mouth. I never claim that MG's are perfect. I do know that they are accurate and have controllable recoil. I've said numerous times I'd like to see a greater "supression effect". Although that is hardly realistic as "supression" would be different for each person. I really don't care how the "mod" did things, as we are not playing the mod.

So if we were playing the mod, would you say they are so good that they need to be "dumbed down" for gamey purposes?

I'm giving the mod for example, because it had modelled the MG's very good, and even now we have missing features like ducking while reloading. As Ostfront is the direct successor of the mod, I had expected it to retain it's good MG specs.

And Rex, DP-28 is great, MG-34 is somewhat ok, but MG-42 is just terrible. I have no problems about getting kills too, but 34 and 42 is just too exaggerated about accuracy and cone fire in Ostfront.

The problem is not getting used to, it's about how much they resemble the real thing.

 

[Hakuna]

I was MG-Gunner with the MG74, the direct grandson of the MG42.
(Just Plastics instead of Wood, other metalfeather for the Catcher...) and it is possible to shoot targets within 600 m after some Practice.

Firebursts must be between 3-5 shots if you want to shoot at single targets, bigger bursts up to 8 shots are just to let them sniff gras

We had one training day where we were permitted to fire from the hip.
To distances up to 20-30 m it

 

[Ron]

I was MG-Gunner with the MG74, the direct grandson of the MG42.
(Just Plastics instead of Wood, other metalfeather for the Catcher...) and it is possible to shoot targets within 600 m after some Practice.

Firebursts must be between 3-5 shots if you want to shoot at single targets, bigger bursts up to 8 shots are just to let them sniff gras

We had one training day where we were permitted to fire from the hip.
To distances up to 20-30 m it

 

[Hakuna]

I

 

[Ron]

I

 

[Rex]

And Rex, DP-28 is great, MG-34 is somewhat ok, but MG-42 is just terrible. I have no problems about getting kills too, but 34 and 42 is just too exaggerated about accuracy and cone fire in Ostfront.

The problem is not getting used to, it's about how much they resemble the real thing.

SPOILER: there is no conefire in RO, ask Ramm and he will tell you. and i quote the mighty Rammbot: "the bullets always go where the barrel is pointing." there are certain modifiers on accuracy based on stance, stamina, and whether you are resting the weapon, but there is no artificial conefire in RO. what you all THINK is conefire is actually the german mg's high rate of fire, each shot throwing the barrel in a slightly different direction. these slight changes produce a spread of shots over long burts, which is why you should all be using short bursts AND why the dp seems to much more accurate. lower rate of fire = fewer bullets to change the direction of the barrel.

there is no use arguing with me about conefire here, it just IS NOT IN RO.

 

[JudgeMental]

While with the British Army, I took part in a battle training camp at Vogelsang in Germany. As our guests we had a section from a German unit. I would spell it but I would only insult them with my miss-spelling
Over the days we were there we fired their weapons (G3 and MG3) and they fired ours, LMG,GPMG,SMG and SLR. Having fired the MG3 (Direct descendant of the MG42) I can tell you it is accurate, though the 'beaten zone' is larger than that of the LMG or GPMG. Its rate of fire is just fearsome, and when used with tracer, the psycological effect would have been something to behold. Having taken all that into account, the effect of the MG42 as a suppression/support weapon in RO is TBH weaker than I would have thought accurate. I have to agree also that it is BLOODY ANNOYING when you are trying to supress an enemy, and are firing the MG as it should be fired (controlled bursts rather than as a ballistic buzz saw), only to have him pop up and shoot you. Also I agree that the reload and indeed barrel change can be accomplished in real life without making nearly as much of a target of yourself as you do in game. Ah well, the game as I am fond of telling visitors to our server is a 'work in progress' so I'm sure these details will be fixed.

 

[jedinstven-o crni Wuk]

Well, believe what you want.

I know how they work and from what I've seen I doubt they will be changed. Go ahead, petition your asses off. The devs know what I'm talking about.

dont you realize that no one even cares about, how much you rule with the mg in game, and that most here just try to have them "realistic" in game.

Its about, how they work in game and in real ... i better listen to them, who fired it in real. What ever you, or the developers might think. And so far, no one of them, talked about any taktics, like you described how to use them. They just, say, theyre not working right.

and if someone comes to the conclussion to make a "realism" mod for ROO, and fix that, we will probably run it on our server, or others will run and it, then we might maybe see, if its a heavy change at all, or not. Time will tell, not what you assume from the developers. As you said ... you love it how people put words in your mouth ...

 

[kabex]

SPOILER: there is no conefire in RO, ask Ramm and he will tell you. and i quote the mighty Rammbot: "the bullets always go where the barrel is pointing." there are certain modifiers on accuracy based on stance, stamina, and whether you are resting the weapon, but there is no artificial conefire in RO. what you all THINK is conefire is actually the german mg's high rate of fire, each shot throwing the barrel in a slightly different direction. these slight changes produce a spread of shots over long burts, which is why you should all be using short bursts AND why the dp seems to much more accurate. lower rate of fire = fewer bullets to change the direction of the barrel.

there is no use arguing with me about conefire here, it just IS NOT IN RO.

Cone fire IS in RO, check your facts before mouthing off.

The developers themselves said there is conefire for SMGs and MGs on longer distances.

If there was NO conefire, absolutely ALL bullets would be 100% railgun-accurate no matter the distance(except for bullet drop).

Jeez, so many misinformed people, anyway: the MG42 in RO is completely unrealistic, whether you think it's useful or not: it's not realistic, end of discussion.

 

[Soup]

I would certainly hope conefire, to a small extent, is included in RO, to simulate cheap crap ammunition and changes in wind direction. Anyone who has compared ammunition on a range can tell you that the expensive brand is expensive for a reason: the grouping consistency of the expensive brand is amazing compared to the cheap brand.