Ok, first of all I have been trying to get the community to understand that the game is biased towards the Russians regarding armour loadouts for quite a while. However, only very few people believe me even though I cite sources and numbers every single time.
I took a lot of time to research and organize the information displayed in this thread so that everyone sees why I am making such claims once and for all. Remember that I am not talking about making "compromises". I simply want to see authentic armour loadouts(orders of battle) from the era of the map, in respective numbers according to their rarity(very few Tigers, Panthers, IS2s etc).
To start, the single most necessary correction in the game(not an addition, as it is a fundamental flaw which the developers should have corrected as soon as possible way before the game was released) is to feature the Panzer IV Ausf. H in the game. To have the Panzer IV Ausf. F/2 on 1944 maps is a blasphemy of epic proportions.
Some people say that certain models are so similar that one model in the game would "simulate" different models in different periods. I agree, the devs could use the exact same model and change the code.
PanzerIV Ausf. G and StuG Ausf. G both have 30mm more of armour on the front than their variants which are featured in the game, therefore this variant could be added by just changing this value and the name of the tank of course. Other than this difference, both tanks are nearly identical.
If Tripwire wants to keep the PzIV Ausf. F/2 in use I ask for it to be renamed "Panzer IV Ausf. G" and its front armour increased by 30mm. The G was made in relatively big numbers(1500+) and was not uncommon in the war.
What we should see in RO:OST in regards to armour combat is a general intepretation of the same, throughout 1941 to 1945. What this means is that we should see the most common armoured vehicles fighting against their most common adversaries, in the most common numbers. To put it simply, we should be seeing many abstractions in order to portray a very average engagement. What I mean by this is that there is no doubt that there were some engagements in which a company of Tigers fought a platoon of T-60s(or considerably weaker tanks in comparision) but we should never see this in the game since it's not a realistic depiction of "general" armoured combat during WWII.
The developers understand this idea and they sought to realize it in the game. This is why we see Tigers and Panthers, but in scarse quantities in regards to Germany's weaker tanks(such as PzIII and IV). The same applies for the Soviet Union.
In case nobody knows, the appearance of the KV-1s on Bondarevo is completely unrealistic as it did not even exist yet! That's as silly as having a Tiger on it!
Let's analyse some of the armour loadouts in the game:
Arad(Sept. 44).
Axis: 3x PzIVF/2 2x TigerE 1x PantherG
Allies: 4x T34/85 2x IS-2
Barashka(Jan.45)
Axis: 4x PzIVF/2 1x StuG F/8 1x TigerE
Allies: 4x T-34/85 1x Su-76 1x IS-2
Ogledow(Aug.44)
Axis: 4x PzIVF/2 2x PantherG 1x StuG F/8
Allies: 3x T34/85 1x T34/76 2x IS-2 1x Su-76
What do we see in these loadouts? Well, first of all there's a total of 19 German AFVs represented. These 19 AFVs are fighting from Mid-1944 to the end of the war(April 1945).
Out of 19 AFVs 12 of them are PzIV-F/2. Only 175 PzIV-F/2 were produced during the war and many were sent to North Africa. I don't think any of them at all saw action on the Ostfront from mid 44 to the wars end.
Out of these 19 AFVs 17 are tanks.
It's a complete insult to authenticity to have the PanzerIV-F/2 represent 70% of the German tank force in the most played official armour maps in the game.
I am basing my observations on the PzIVF/2 because it's extremely clear that the armoured loadouts in the game are totally unathentic.
There's absolutely no reason to not have the Panzer IV Ausf. H in the game. The PzIV-H is as much of a symbol of the Wehrmarcht as the Panther and Tiger. It is absolutely imperative to have this tank featured.
To put it into perspective, the lack of PzIV-H in the game is equivalent in blasphemic proportions to the Soviet Union's tank force comprising of 70% T-34/76s and absolutely none T-34/85s in these maps.
I don't need to tell anyone how clearly superior the PzIV-H is to the F/2, it has 30mm more armour on the front, a longer cannon and armoured skirts to aid against the extremely annoying and unrealistically powerful PTRD featured in the game, not to mention the humongous amounts of scattered Panzerfausts which appear to have been raining on these maps. If only that had happened in the war!
From what we see in this game absolutely all Russian soldiers had access to endless supplies of Panzerfausts.
I want an authentic representation of armoured combat in the period. I believe every single WW2 buff/grognard who plays this game wants the same as I. This entails:
The PzIV-H(+J) to be the main tank of the Wehrmarcht from the start of 1944 to the end of the war, not the F/2(or G).
The StuG G to be the most available tank destroyer, to have its coaxial MG, armoured skirts and Saukopf rounded turret(all of these available from early 1944).
The Russians to get realistic orders of battle. No more incredibly unrealistic forces consisting of purely T-34/85 and IS-2 on 1944(extremely elite completely unrealistic, never seen order of battle).
If the stupidly massive behemoth that is the IS-2 is featured on this game, why shouldn't we get another stupidly massive behemoth such as the KingTiger? You could argue that it was available in very small numbers, but the KingTiger was a "million"(or other completely ridiculous number) times more common than the Panzer IV F/2, from Sept. 44 to wars end. The KingTiger was very common in the last months of the war, as it was one out of two tanks still in production(+Panther).
The developers should get the idea that the PzIVF/2 is an equal match to the T-34/85 out of their heads. Prime example: Rakowice('45 map). An F/2 is pitted against a T-34/85, what a complete joke. Why don't we get a Panther against the T-60 on Hedgehog? Why not?
Here is some data I've gathered for all my posts on the matter, I've spent endless hours researching the matter in order to get Tripwire to realize how unauthentic this aspect of the game is(I've never seen one of them admit anything).
KV-1s Model 1942(I believe this is the one featured in RO:OST). - Production start in Aug. 1942(Bondarevo is a July42 map).
Sources:
OnWar and http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/crossfire/history/what_weapons_when.htm
Number produced(approximate): 1370
Panzer IV Ausf. F/2 - March/April 1941 (here goes the date when production started from now on)
Sources(here I will list the enciclopedias in which I found this data):
Tarrif, Onwar, AchtungPanzer, WWIIVehicles(s2)
Number produced: 175
PzKpfw IV Ausf H - April 1943
OnWar, WWIIVehicles (s1,s2)
Number produced: 3774+1758 Ausf. J(same model for game purposes)
T-34/85 model 1944(ingame) - March 1944
Tariff,WWIIVehicles,OnWar
Number produced: 17680
StuG III Ausf. F/8 (in RO:OST) Sept. 1942:
WWIIVEHICLES(s2):
Number produced: 334 (s2)
StuG III Ausf. G - Dec. 1942
ONWAR, TARIFF, WWIIVEHICLES(s2)
Number produced: 7720
For most of the research I used four armour enciclopedias:
1. http://www.onwar.com/tanks/index.htm
2. http://www.wwiivehicles.com
3. http://www.tarrif.net
4. http://www.achtungpanzer.com
s1 and s2 indicate book sources, which are:
s1: Jane's World War II Tanks and Fighting Vehicles The Complete Guide, Leland Ness, 2002
s2: Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two, Peter Chamberlain and Hilary Doyle, 1999
(edit)
Everyone who wants to see the Panzer IV Ausf. H added in a patch, add this to your signature:
*Signee of the Panzer IV-H petition.
I took a lot of time to research and organize the information displayed in this thread so that everyone sees why I am making such claims once and for all. Remember that I am not talking about making "compromises". I simply want to see authentic armour loadouts(orders of battle) from the era of the map, in respective numbers according to their rarity(very few Tigers, Panthers, IS2s etc).
To start, the single most necessary correction in the game(not an addition, as it is a fundamental flaw which the developers should have corrected as soon as possible way before the game was released) is to feature the Panzer IV Ausf. H in the game. To have the Panzer IV Ausf. F/2 on 1944 maps is a blasphemy of epic proportions.
Some people say that certain models are so similar that one model in the game would "simulate" different models in different periods. I agree, the devs could use the exact same model and change the code.
PanzerIV Ausf. G and StuG Ausf. G both have 30mm more of armour on the front than their variants which are featured in the game, therefore this variant could be added by just changing this value and the name of the tank of course. Other than this difference, both tanks are nearly identical.
If Tripwire wants to keep the PzIV Ausf. F/2 in use I ask for it to be renamed "Panzer IV Ausf. G" and its front armour increased by 30mm. The G was made in relatively big numbers(1500+) and was not uncommon in the war.
What we should see in RO:OST in regards to armour combat is a general intepretation of the same, throughout 1941 to 1945. What this means is that we should see the most common armoured vehicles fighting against their most common adversaries, in the most common numbers. To put it simply, we should be seeing many abstractions in order to portray a very average engagement. What I mean by this is that there is no doubt that there were some engagements in which a company of Tigers fought a platoon of T-60s(or considerably weaker tanks in comparision) but we should never see this in the game since it's not a realistic depiction of "general" armoured combat during WWII.
The developers understand this idea and they sought to realize it in the game. This is why we see Tigers and Panthers, but in scarse quantities in regards to Germany's weaker tanks(such as PzIII and IV). The same applies for the Soviet Union.
In case nobody knows, the appearance of the KV-1s on Bondarevo is completely unrealistic as it did not even exist yet! That's as silly as having a Tiger on it!
Let's analyse some of the armour loadouts in the game:
Arad(Sept. 44).
Axis: 3x PzIVF/2 2x TigerE 1x PantherG
Allies: 4x T34/85 2x IS-2
Barashka(Jan.45)
Axis: 4x PzIVF/2 1x StuG F/8 1x TigerE
Allies: 4x T-34/85 1x Su-76 1x IS-2
Ogledow(Aug.44)
Axis: 4x PzIVF/2 2x PantherG 1x StuG F/8
Allies: 3x T34/85 1x T34/76 2x IS-2 1x Su-76
What do we see in these loadouts? Well, first of all there's a total of 19 German AFVs represented. These 19 AFVs are fighting from Mid-1944 to the end of the war(April 1945).
Out of 19 AFVs 12 of them are PzIV-F/2. Only 175 PzIV-F/2 were produced during the war and many were sent to North Africa. I don't think any of them at all saw action on the Ostfront from mid 44 to the wars end.
Out of these 19 AFVs 17 are tanks.
It's a complete insult to authenticity to have the PanzerIV-F/2 represent 70% of the German tank force in the most played official armour maps in the game.
I am basing my observations on the PzIVF/2 because it's extremely clear that the armoured loadouts in the game are totally unathentic.
There's absolutely no reason to not have the Panzer IV Ausf. H in the game. The PzIV-H is as much of a symbol of the Wehrmarcht as the Panther and Tiger. It is absolutely imperative to have this tank featured.
To put it into perspective, the lack of PzIV-H in the game is equivalent in blasphemic proportions to the Soviet Union's tank force comprising of 70% T-34/76s and absolutely none T-34/85s in these maps.
I don't need to tell anyone how clearly superior the PzIV-H is to the F/2, it has 30mm more armour on the front, a longer cannon and armoured skirts to aid against the extremely annoying and unrealistically powerful PTRD featured in the game, not to mention the humongous amounts of scattered Panzerfausts which appear to have been raining on these maps. If only that had happened in the war!
From what we see in this game absolutely all Russian soldiers had access to endless supplies of Panzerfausts.
I want an authentic representation of armoured combat in the period. I believe every single WW2 buff/grognard who plays this game wants the same as I. This entails:
The PzIV-H(+J) to be the main tank of the Wehrmarcht from the start of 1944 to the end of the war, not the F/2(or G).
The StuG G to be the most available tank destroyer, to have its coaxial MG, armoured skirts and Saukopf rounded turret(all of these available from early 1944).
The Russians to get realistic orders of battle. No more incredibly unrealistic forces consisting of purely T-34/85 and IS-2 on 1944(extremely elite completely unrealistic, never seen order of battle).
If the stupidly massive behemoth that is the IS-2 is featured on this game, why shouldn't we get another stupidly massive behemoth such as the KingTiger? You could argue that it was available in very small numbers, but the KingTiger was a "million"(or other completely ridiculous number) times more common than the Panzer IV F/2, from Sept. 44 to wars end. The KingTiger was very common in the last months of the war, as it was one out of two tanks still in production(+Panther).
The developers should get the idea that the PzIVF/2 is an equal match to the T-34/85 out of their heads. Prime example: Rakowice('45 map). An F/2 is pitted against a T-34/85, what a complete joke. Why don't we get a Panther against the T-60 on Hedgehog? Why not?
Here is some data I've gathered for all my posts on the matter, I've spent endless hours researching the matter in order to get Tripwire to realize how unauthentic this aspect of the game is(I've never seen one of them admit anything).
KV-1s Model 1942(I believe this is the one featured in RO:OST). - Production start in Aug. 1942(Bondarevo is a July42 map).
Sources:
OnWar and http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/crossfire/history/what_weapons_when.htm
Number produced(approximate): 1370
Panzer IV Ausf. F/2 - March/April 1941 (here goes the date when production started from now on)
Sources(here I will list the enciclopedias in which I found this data):
Tarrif, Onwar, AchtungPanzer, WWIIVehicles(s2)
Number produced: 175
PzKpfw IV Ausf H - April 1943
OnWar, WWIIVehicles (s1,s2)
Number produced: 3774+1758 Ausf. J(same model for game purposes)
T-34/85 model 1944(ingame) - March 1944
Tariff,WWIIVehicles,OnWar
Number produced: 17680
StuG III Ausf. F/8 (in RO:OST) Sept. 1942:
WWIIVEHICLES(s2):
Number produced: 334 (s2)
StuG III Ausf. G - Dec. 1942
ONWAR, TARIFF, WWIIVEHICLES(s2)
Number produced: 7720
For most of the research I used four armour enciclopedias:
1. http://www.onwar.com/tanks/index.htm
2. http://www.wwiivehicles.com
3. http://www.tarrif.net
4. http://www.achtungpanzer.com
s1 and s2 indicate book sources, which are:
s1: Jane's World War II Tanks and Fighting Vehicles The Complete Guide, Leland Ness, 2002
s2: Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two, Peter Chamberlain and Hilary Doyle, 1999
(edit)
Everyone who wants to see the Panzer IV Ausf. H added in a patch, add this to your signature:
*Signee of the Panzer IV-H petition.
Last edited:
