So smoke has been forced onto all the maps then

[Kozuth]

Smoke on city oreiented maps..

Smoke on city oreiented maps..

The smoke nades becomes abit annoying on the citymaps like odessa/satlingradkessel and so on.. But i think they meake a great addition on the maps like Bosovka because u dont have to be smg fodder.

 

[Solo4114]

I've yet to play online with the new smokes, but I tried a bit with the bots the other day.

The smoke lasts a while, and it does seem a bit readily available. The issue is much like the old nade spam issue. The EFFECT of so many grenades made urban maps a nightmare. Partially this was due to how far you could throw them. This was toned down in RO:Ost, and now nade spam is nowhere near as bad as it was, while nades remain effective.

Something like this may need to be done with smoke grenades -- a tweak to make them work better within the game. Maybe instead of spawning with them, they're things that a commander has to go to an ammo depot to get, or that you pick up like panzerfausts on a lot of maps. Or maybe the time the smoke lasts is reduced, or commanders only spawn with one, or only on certain maps. Or something like that.

It does seem like, if you play as a commander and die often enough, you really can blanket an area with smoke, BUT it's highly dependent on how close you are to ammo supplies and how long the commander lives. Because only commanders get them, it's not like EVERYONE is throwing smoke constantly. If you've got a commander who lives a long time, he gets, I think, one reload of smokes and that's it.


Now, that said, all the wailing and gnashing of teeth and "ZOMG!!! TEH GAME IS ROOINED!!!" histrionics are a bit silly. I'm not simply responding with "Learn to adapt, noob", but there is a level on which it's a good idea to try adapting before instantly condemning. Seeing some of the posts in this thread mention things like "Our clan's tactics are now worthless" makes me want to say "And? So what? Why is this important?" Learn new tactics. Use smoke defensively as well as offensively. Let's say you want to advance to a position or to allow an MGer or sniper to get in place without being picked off. Use a smokie. Let's say you have some open areas to defend, but your team mostly has SMGs while the other team has a mix of SMGs and rifles. Use a smokie.

There's lots of ways to use them and use them effectively, as well as adapt to their use.

Much of the problems people have in maps being over in 20 seconds can probably also be alleviated by keeping people IN the capture zones, instead of having defenders wander about trying to pick people off. Like I said, there's ways to adapt and overcome. But also, like I said, the actual implementation of smoke grenades may need some tweaking. I do not, however, think they should be removed wholesale from the game, nor do I think the game is now ruined. In fact, I'd like to also advocate for smoke artillery barrages on some maps (not all), especially as larger-scale tank and infantry maps are developed.

Anyway, give this some time and things will shake out. There's already a mutator developed apparently if you absolutely despise smoke grenades, so there's no sense in further condemning the devs and such.

 

[Monkwarrior]

Solo's post triggered an idea.
I do see smoke adds a lot of tactical value to this game.
Thing is: certain parts of maps can do better without them. If TW can find a way to add smoke nades as a property of spawnpoints that would help a lot.

The commander spawns at the beginning of a map with his team. At that part of the map smoke is no problem so he gets smokenades at that spawnpoint. Later on when progressive spawns kick in he might spawn at the new location without smokenades (fragnades for instance).

That way it's a win-win situation: smoke is very hard to abuse, but still provided to add more depth to parts of the map which are more suited for smoke.

Monk.

 

[REZ]

So we have a mutator (thank you Olga).

My question is, does the mutator allow you to manage the smoke nades, for example choosing which map they are on, what the loadout is (1vs2), or is it simply a on/off thing?

Either way, I think a server side mutator is the best way to deal with this situation.

 

[Harry S. Truman]

"The devs have been patching the game to appeal to the CS commuinty. It is unrealistic to have smoke nades for small squads. The smoke nades were used to pin point air strikes and supply drops. Using them for cover was not that histrolly accurite."

Tactical use of smoke began in WWI. I'm not sure how this fallacy got started. Smoke grenades were issued to any unit that needed them according to the tactical situation. Urban combat (city, towns, villages, group of house) being the most common reason. Direct tactical air support for ground units did not exist during WWII. There was no possible way for the ground units to be in contact with the specific plains needed for such an operation. There was no such thing as a WWII ground unit pin pointing an air strike, except at the very end of the war the United States started playing with such things. Even then, it was very dangerous as it was difficult, if not nearly impossible for the plane to tell who was who.

Smoke was also available in smoke pots, smoke shells for artillery and mortars, smoke shells for bazookas/panzershieks, smoke shells for tanks, smoke launchers for tanks, smoke generators on tanks, even Molotov cocktails with tar in them to produce smoke. Using smoke to provide not COVER...cover is when you have protection against enemy fire, but rather concealment. You are attempting to conceal your actions from the enemy.

Which, by the way, I have been seeing people use smoke wrong. They have been placing it on themselves. This is pointless, as you are clearly outlined by the smoke and can easily been seen entering and leaving it. You need to place the smoke on the elements that are observing you, so THEY can't see.

 

[Jet Black]

I finally had a bit of time to try out some maps online... and while I don't have as much time to 'playtest' as some, I didn't see smoke being too much of an issue. One map was Stalingrad Kessel (which many have said should NOT have smoke) and I think it was used twice the entire round... and that made me think.

Perhaps the tactical problem isn't the smoke grenades themselves, but some of the people 'abusing' them: A good commander should be able to live a long time. Hell, you're worth 3 points for a reason! You should be hard to kill If you live an entire round, or near-to, you'll want to save your two grenades for the most opportune moment.

When the playtesters were testing the patch out, I bet that's how it worked out in most cases - long living commanders with fewer opportunties and not a lot of 'abused' smoke. The problem is commanders who don't care... who want to die just to get more grenades, and spam smoke everywhere.

Perhaps the solution isn't to eliminate 'smoke', but to somehow 'punish' suiciding to replenish your stash?

 

[Solo4114]

Waith, WHAT have people been doing? They throw it at their own feet or soemthing? The goal is to throw smoke in between yourself and the enemy to conceal your advance. Did people not get the memo on that?

 

[Solo4114]

I finally had a bit of time to try out some maps online... and while I don't have as much time to 'playtest' as some, I didn't see smoke being too much of an issue. One map was Stalingrad Kessel (which many have said should NOT have smoke) and I think it was used twice the entire round... and that made me think.

Perhaps the tactical problem isn't the smoke grenades themselves, but some of the people 'abusing' them: A good commander should be able to live a long time. Hell, you're worth 3 points for a reason! You should be hard to kill If you live an entire round, or near-to, you'll want to save your two grenades for the most opportune moment.

When the playtesters were testing the patch out, I bet that's how it worked out in most cases - long living commanders with fewer opportunties and not a lot of 'abused' smoke. The problem is commanders who don't care... who want to die just to get more grenades, and spam smoke everywhere.

Perhaps the solution isn't to eliminate 'smoke', but to somehow 'punish' suiciding to replenish your stash?

Suiciding is already punished as (I think) a teamkill, so if you're the commander and suicide, you lose the same amount as if you killed a commander on your team. At the very least, there's already a negative score associated with suiciding. Then again, there's suiciding and "Suiciding". One involves going into the console and typinc "Suicide". The other involves charging the enemy like a lunatic and getting killed (which causes no point loss, but a reinforcement loss).

Commanders can also (I think) reload their smoke grenades from an ammo spot, although this may only be able to happen once (like with regular grenades, I think).

 

[Jet Black]

They can just Kamikaze and not lose any points, and get a nice fresh batch of grenades... but someone really 'playing' wouldn't do that, they would rather live and be effective than run out and die just for smoke.

I haven't experienced this, but some appear to have seen smoke abused, so I figured maybe that's the issue, not necessarily the smoke specifically.

 

[Quinch]

Having played a lot with the smoke, i've found it doesn't unbalance the game as much as I feared. Even as rifleman and sniper you can still hit a target as they emerge from the smoke. If you time a grenade right, it can even give the defender an advantage in that they cannot see the grenades landing on the floor. I've scored several kills by waiting uuntil the smoke is at full effect and then lobbing two grenades near the centre of the smoke. Most players wait until the smoke is thick before emerging so you can catch them unwary. I had my doubts, but to be honest found it a positive addition to most of the games I have played so far.

 

[worluk]

So we have a mutator (thank you Olga).

My question is, does the mutator allow you to manage the smoke nades, for example choosing which map they are on, what the loadout is (1vs2), or is it simply a on/off thing?

Either way, I think a server side mutator is the best way to deal with this situation.

the mutator lets you chose on what maps they are.

btw. we played a war on basovka and krasnyi yesterday. Though the nades did not have the ulimate imbalance effect, 2 nades per spawn seem way too much. Starting from the first time our opponent (thanks for the match INF ) attacked the Petrol yard it was filled with smoke. (I think we did the same, so thats not a judgement )

I think 1 nade per spawn for the commander classes would be enough.

 

[Coey]

How about the smoke disapears when the guy who threw it dies?

 

[REZ]

I think 1 nade per spawn for the commander classes would be enough.

I agree.


Where I differ with the others is... I personally like smoke on all maps.

Its nice to have this mutator, so the admins who oppose the current parameters, now have an option. We can finally simmer down

 

[Phoenix-D]

That'd be incredibly cheesy. A better solution would be to limit it to two active smoke grenades per side- if you have two down from a previous life you can't throw a new one until they disappate.

 

[Munkie]

That'd be incredibly cheesy. A better solution would be to limit it to two active smoke grenades per side- if you have two down from a previous life you can't throw a new one until they disappate.

I thought that was a good idea but it would not be, umm, "realistic" in the sense it is not very immersive. Throw a smoke nade only to find out it's a dud? I think a better option would be limiting them to just one per spawn.

 

[Helmut_AUT]

Direct tactical air support for ground units did not exist during WWII. There was no possible way for the ground units to be in contact with the specific plains needed for such an operation. There was no such thing as a WWII ground unit pin pointing an air strike, except at the very end of the war the United States started playing with such things.

Sorry, got to contradict you here. I seem to remember that quite a few german mechanized units had a "Fliegerleitoffizier" (Forward Air Controller) riding along with a direct radio to the air support, often Ju-87 Stukas. He could reasonable well point out targets ahead and direct very precise bombing on them.

This was one of the core concepts that enabled the german "Blitzkrieg" tactics.

As for smoke - been playing a lot since the patch, all weekend, but I never saw an commander idiotic enough to spam the whole map with it. I used it once or twice myself on the two maps I was commanding - so that's not a whole lot, but on the defense you don't really need them. Did blind an enemy DP with it so it would stop shooting up our guys.

I know, I know...referencing other games is not a definite source...but do you know how much smoke is avalable in "Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin"? Tanks use them, mortars have them, AT-Guns have smoke shells, Artillery can drop smoke. Often it's the only way to cross a large patch of open terrain. I'm sure all armys in WW2 used it a fair bit, it's way too good a tool, and the millions of produced nades can't all have been for "signaling".

 

[Phoenix-D]

I thought that was a good idea but it would not be, umm, "realistic" in the sense it is not very immersive. Throw a smoke nade only to find out it's a dud? I think a better option would be limiting them to just one per spawn.

I'd think it'd be more along the lines of not letting you throw it at all, and I was really just offering it as a counterpoint to the weirder idea I quoted there.

 

[Harry S. Truman]

Sorry, got to contradict you here. I seem to remember that quite a few german mechanized units had a "Fliegerleitoffizier" (Forward Air Controller) riding along with a direct radio to the air support, often Ju-87 Stukas. He could reasonable well point out targets ahead and direct very precise bombing on them.

These guys belonged to the Luftwaffe. They were attached to units in support and could call in strike of entire flights of Stukas. There was no way he could contact any individual stuka and give them a specific target, let alone mark that target with a smoke grenade. Battlefields were covered by smoke. He would identify areas of enemy concentration so that air power could knock them out, but each target was still a judgement call by the pilot. This is primarily why you didn't call such attacks near your own lines. This is kind of a hands on operational approach to airpower but it nothing like today where even a lowly Squad Leader can call in a gunship.

 

[Harry S. Truman]

The smoke nades becomes abit annoying on the citymaps like odessa/satlingradkessel and so on.. But i think they meake a great addition on the maps like Bosovka because u dont have to be smg fodder.

This is funny considering urban areas is exactly the type of places one would use a smoke grenade.

 

[mobilechomp]

I like the smoke, but limiting to 1 per spawn and maybe 3 smokes overall per round (limited like artillery, as someone suggested) would force the team to use them real wisely/tactically, and reduce any spamming. Maybe assign the smoke to a seperate key so you couldn't toggle it in your weapons selection and throw it on accident.