Diving to Prone and IS

[Crim]

I'm sad that this is going to be 'fixed'. Yeah, I use it sometimes. I get it used against me often, too. The fact of the matter is, more often than not, whenever someone tries to use it against me, they die.

Most times when the whole dive-to-prone-while-IS thing is used, they're not shooting at bots which are two feet away with their backs turned.

It takes skill to use properly. Fact. If you don't have it, you're a previously fast moving target which just became stationary. Even then, the other person (if they're not an oblivious bot, of course) will take advantage of your sudden stop, no matter how fast you get on target.

Indeed, I've just seen this entire exploit (for that, I guess, is what it is now) being a measure of how good a player is, if they can pull it off or not. Most can't, so it's not a problem. Most players who can do it don't do it often.

Admittedly, yeah, diving in to one of the trenches in Basovka, ironsighting in midair, and then starting to kill everyone down the trench is a little bit.. odd. It's probably a good thing that it's being fixed, really.

However, when it is, this game will become just that much more static and like every other game.

I guess I'm thinking of it sort of like skiing in Tribes.

It's not an issue of that scale, of course, but it's the same sort of thing.

Oh, well.

Edit: Just to clarify, I don't really do the whole dive-to-prone-and-IS thing anymore. I wouldn't be all that effected if Tripwire fixed it. Whenever I have the opportunity to dive-to-prone, I usually do a bayonet rush instead. It works, most of the time. Indeed, the whole bayonet thing would be even easier if, whenever someone dove, they'd be utterly vulnerable for a good second. So, please. Fix this terrible exploit, Tripwire!

 

[REZ]

It's true... the people that dive and try to shoot me in game** end up eating a nade (because they cant get up and away in time) or my bayo as I'm strafing... there is no advantage to it, it actually makes you more vulnerable... MUCH more so after they fix the bouncing off of prone players glitch.

I do understand what some of these guys are saying about you would hurt yourself if you dove with the gun up to your face.. that I agree on, I never argued that, but I still dont think there is any advantage to doing so in game. So if this is some sort of request for 'realism', then you'd have to admit its a visual thing, and not an advantage gaining exploit.

**I still havent seen any thing close to instantaneous-without-fail-accuracy firing after a dive, but of course, people do dive in game to try and get a smaller profile or more steady shot, thats what I'm referring to here.

 

[melipone]

I admit diving to IS has quite limited uses if you are using a bolt action rifle. The main problem is with SMG's because it completely negates all the negative aspects they are supposed to have, like hard gun control, lack of accuracy, high recoil. The diving to IS screws up the balance theres supposed be between the guns by making it too easy to use them effectively.

It's true... the people that dive and try to shoot me in game** end up eating a nade (because they cant get up and away in time) or my bayo as I'm strafing... there is no advantage to it, it actually makes you more vulnerable... MUCH more so after they fix the bouncing off of prone players glitch.

You are assuming a few things though here REZ. You won't always have nades, you won't always be able to get behind cover in the time it takes to dive to prone, you won't always be able to get in bayonet range and you simply cannot say you will strafe all his shots. Against a bolter your points are valid, but not against the classes that benefits the most from the bug. The only way to beat an insta-IS SMGer is by your single hip shot you will get before he sprays you to death, or by getting behind cover during the second you have before he gets into IS, OR by being close enough to be able to sprint-stab him in 1 second.

 

[[5.SS]Strother]

REZ, I believe you said you would acknowledge it as a bug if the devs did, they acknowledged it, and you still havn't.

The dive IS is a specific skill to be used in certain situations. It works perfectly when used properly. It is mainly a way to avoid being shot immeditaly at point blank range. I guess you could consider it worming. When you use the dive IS at the right time, you can avoid being hipshot by a startled smger, and you can make your target size much smaller since you are prone, making you harder to hit. And since it is generally used at point blank range, it takes nearly no time at all to aim, and the video proves that. And REZ I doubt the strafe and then bayo works all the time either unless it is against riflemen. If its an smger he will just spray you down as you try and flank him, remember now that in game, when you are prone you can spin around just as fast as if you were standing up. Another thing I'd like to point out is if the diving to ironsights takes as much time as someone pulling up their sights from standing, then the person diving gets a great advantage. The person on the ground is less of a target, while he dives it would be nearly impossible to kill him and the other guy would have to adjust his aim down, the diver can bring up sights just as fast, can potentially rest his gun, and could potentially have cover from grenade blasts. The guy standing up brings his gun up maybe as fast, but he has to stand still to hit his target which means he presents a much larger target, however he can run if he wants, but if the diver has an smger he is screwed either way.

 

[Crim]

I have never, nor have I ever experienced, someone diving to prone at point blank range.

I've also never really seen anyone but bolt-action riflemen use the maneuver. Nor have they ever been COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY UNABLE TO BE SHOT OH MY GOD HOW UNFAIR.

I only do it when I come across someone in a set position, while I'm exposed. Dive to prone, bring up ironsights, shoot them. That's how I'd imagine most people do it. It has no inherant advantage against the other person. In fact, it's the only way you can negate YOUR disadvantage.

It is not in ANY way "nearly impossible to kill [anyone using the dive to prone bug]".

For a submachinegunner or semi-automatic rifleman, well... yeah, it's stupid.

Of course, people who use those two weapons are subhuman anyway, so I couldn't care less about them. As previously mentioned, I haven't seen very many of them do it anyway. Probably because they're all too busy camping a doorway while the bolt-action riflemen move up and cap points, or something.

In any case. If anyone tried to dive to prone at point blank range, I'd bayonet them in the back while laughing. All you have to do there is move straight ahead, bounce over them, crouch down, and knife them in the ass. Simple as that. It'll be a sad day indeed when the bouncing-over-bodies bug gets fixed.

Going to prone when close to someone is just asking to get knifed. Honestly, they're just meat on the table. I've never seen someone stupid enough to dive to prone in any other occasion than them being completely exposed and the other person being in a supported or aimed position.

If this DOES, in fact, get fixed, riflemen will really be ****ed when some dumbass SMGer is spraying wildly at them from behind a box.

 

[REZ]

The problem as I now understand it to have morphed into is 'SMGs' diving to prone have too much of an advantage... okay... even IF they dive to prone, I.S. mid-air, and start popping shots off at you upon landing, ITS AN SMG!!! No accuracy required! They are simply spraying! If you added some crazy half second sway... THEY'D STILL SPRAY YOUR ASS!

 

[Panzer Meyer]

The problem as I now understand it to have morphed into is 'SMGs' diving to prone have too much of an advantage... okay... even IF they dive to prone, I.S. mid-air, and start popping shots off at you upon landing, ITS AN SMG!!! No accuracy required! They are simply spraying! If you added some crazy half second sway... THEY'D STILL SPRAY YOUR ASS!

You are not understanding the issue here, at all! We all know this, obviously. What you miss is the advantage of going prone versus someone standing or crouching. The second it takes going from standing to prone and being able to fire is 2 fold.

One makes the person a much smaller target in short period of time to where the opponent has to try and adjust his aim. While at the same time, the person going prone can fire quickly. While the person either standing or crouching has less accuracy and has to re-adjust their aim.

Two the recoil while prone is greatly reduced compared to a person standing or crouching. The person prone is a much smaller target (as stated before) while the person crouching or standing is a much bigger target.

I am not sure how else to explain it, we all tried but you are not understanding it. Simply it is an exploit/bug even confirmed by a dev! The fact that someone can go from full sprint to prone while brining up his sights with perfect aim in abotu a second is ridicilous. This alone is great advantage for the player using this exploit versus the one either standing or crouching.

 

[melipone]

The problem as I now understand it to have morphed into is 'SMGs' diving to prone have too much of an advantage... okay... even IF they dive to prone, I.S. mid-air, and start popping shots off at you upon landing, ITS AN SMG!!! No accuracy required! They are simply spraying! If you added some crazy half second sway... THEY'D STILL SPRAY YOUR ASS!

But if they fix it a bolter will be able to be in iron sight and shoot as the smger has only just started going into IS after landing. I don't think we'll see too much diving in CQC when the bug is fixed.

Anyway whats so wrong with getting a bug fixed. You're very negative about it.

If this DOES, in fact, get fixed, riflemen will really be ****ed when some dumbass SMGer is spraying wildly at them from behind a box.

".

Crim, I would much rather be killed by someone using the environment to their advantage than to someone abusing a bug.

Anyway as I've stated before, this is NOT game breaking and destroys the game. It's simply a bug like any other, but one that is abused to the player's advantage. Thats why I want it fixed

 

[stebbs]

So now it's a problem with a player doing the dive to prone/IS while using an SMG. A gun that is designed to spray as many bullets into the aiming area as possible. Those bullets are just as effective whether they are standing, crouching or prone, and if you are in the line of sight when the bullets start flying, you will probably get hit.

I still think it's an issue that has ways around it, which other players have mentioned, and is reliant on the person doing it to line their aim up ahead of time before they hit IS to get the other person in their sights when they go prone.

The example that was shown to support this was against bots, and even then he wasn't able to hit every single one without fail, and they were relatively close. At those close distances I don't think going prone is even necassary, and could just as easily been hit without going prone.

Also, the bullet isn't fired until he hits the ground, right? I didn't see nor have I ever seen in game where the guy fires while in the air falling. It only happens AFTER THEY HIT THE GROUND. If they have exceptional skill at lining up their sights before hitting IS then that is their reward, just like the guys that are good hipshots. They are able to get a shot off even faster than anyone else but I haven't seen any complaints regarding their accuracy.

BTW, when the devs say they will look into it does not mean that they see it as a problem and that it will be fixed, it means they will look into it. If they decide its an issue, fine, but don't shut the door on those of us that see it differently until a decision has been made, please.

 

[REZ]

You're very negative about it.

No, no, no... if you knew me at all, you would know that isnt the case.. please do not attach negative 'feelings' to my text, as you cannot hear the mood in my voice. I'm a very jovial person, and this thread isnt a big deal to me, in a sense that it wouldnt cause me to be negative, because truthfully I dont see any issue here at all. Whatever the devs decide to do, it wont effect my game.

Mr. Meyer, I do understand your point, but the way I look at and consequently deal with things of this nature, are to find/create ways to deal with them in game... not come in here and insist that the devs fix something that to me is not only subjective, but countered easily, and not what I would consider an exploit/bug. I simply dont see any advantage to what you guys are claiming is an exploit.

Simply it is an exploit/bug even confirmed by a dev!

If a dev wants to correct me, then I stand corrected... but the way I read Yoshis post is.... we are looking at it.... thats not a confirmation. That is not coming out and saying, 'yes, this is wrong and we are going to fix it'.

One thing I would like to say, and maybe you guys could chew on this for a bit, is... when someone disagrees with you in a forum, theres no need to feel like you are under attack. I certainly do not carry a bad attitude towards any of you for your views. I just dont agree with them, and I dont mind coming in here and saying so. Sorry if you feel angry or frustrated with me, but I dont feel that way towards you guys.

It's important for the devs to hear all sides and opinions. Ultimately, its their choice.

 

[melipone]

No, no, no... if you knew me at all, you would know that isnt the case.. please do not attach negative 'feelings' to my text, as you cannot hear the mood in my voice. I'm a very jovial person, and this thread isnt a big deal to me, in a sense that it wouldnt cause me to be negative, because truthfully I dont see any issue here at all. Whatever the devs decide to do, it wont effect my game.

Mr. Meyer, I do understand your point, but the way I look at and consequently deal with things of this nature, are to find/create ways to deal with them in game... not come in here and insist that the devs fix something that to me is not only subjective, but countered easily, and not what I would consider an exploit/bug. I simply dont see any advantage to what you guys are claiming is an exploit.



If a dev wants to correct me, then I stand corrected... but the way I read Yoshis post is.... we are looking at it.... thats not a confirmation. That is not coming out and saying, 'yes, this is wrong and we are going to fix it'.

One thing I would like to say, and maybe you guys could chew on this for a bit, is... when someone disagrees with you in a forum, theres no need to feel like you are under attack. I certainly do not carry a bad attitude towards any of you for your views. I just dont agree with them, and I dont mind coming in here and saying so. Sorry if you feel angry or frustrated with me, but I dont feel that way towards you guys.

It's important for the devs to hear all sides and opinions. Ultimately, its their choice.

NP m8, and I appreciate that things like this need to be looked at from all angles, but what I mean is that to start with you claimed it wasn't possible to bring the IS up as you dive, and now with each subsequent post there seems to be a reason why it shouldn't be fixed. You can see from the video and the experiences of other people here that the bug DOES exist. I see what you mean though that its minor and unimportant in your opinion, but a bugs a bug and should be fixed IMO.

At first I thought of it as an unbalanced feature, but thinking of it more as a bug because of this statement:

Ok, I have been pm'ed several times infact. You should not be able to pull up IS while diving, we are looking into it now.

He says you shouldn't be able to pull up IS as you dive. You can in-game. I don't see how you could interpret this any other way than him saying its a bug. Anyway maybe I'm wrong though, we'll see.

I see what you mean though REZ, but I have used this bug and it has been quite effective in certain circumstances. It's not like everyone should use it all the time for an instant advantage, but in cases such as diving around a corner to surpise enemies, being caught in the open with an SMG, up close against other SMGers, at range where the bolter won't be able to stab you in time and I presume will be very effective for people who can't hip shoot. Anyway mostly though I prefer to hip shoot or melee but there are times when a prone-IS is the best option.

 

[melipone]

So now it's a problem with a player doing the dive to prone/IS while using an SMG. A gun that is designed to spray as many bullets into the aiming area as possible. Those bullets are just as effective whether they are standing, crouching or prone, and if you are in the line of sight when the bullets start flying, you will probably get hit.

I still think it's an issue that has ways around it, which other players have mentioned, and is reliant on the person doing it to line their aim up ahead of time before they hit IS to get the other person in their sights when they go prone.

The example that was shown to support this was against bots, and even then he wasn't able to hit every single one without fail, and they were relatively close. At those close distances I don't think going prone is even necassary, and could just as easily been hit without going prone.

Also, the bullet isn't fired until he hits the ground, right? I didn't see nor have I ever seen in game where the guy fires while in the air falling. It only happens AFTER THEY HIT THE GROUND. If they have exceptional skill at lining up their sights before hitting IS then that is their reward, just like the guys that are good hipshots. They are able to get a shot off even faster than anyone else but I haven't seen any complaints regarding their accuracy.

BTW, when the devs say they will look into it does not mean that they see it as a problem and that it will be fixed, it means they will look into it. If they decide its an issue, fine, but don't shut the door on those of us that see it differently until a decision has been made, please.

OI you saying I'm a crap shot!!?? Only joking, but I only made that video to prove that you CAN shoot as you hit the ground, which was being disputed at the time, and because someone else did a video that wasn't working for some reason. Anyway it wasn't to show the effectiveness of the bug/feature at the time. TBH I should have used an SMG, because with the bolt its not particularly useful IMO in 90% of circumstances.

It's just my opinion, but the fact that its so unrealistic is enough reason to change it, but of course its not the only unrealistic thing in the game, but I think its one of the biggest unrealistic things that affects gameplay IMO negatively

 

[Crim]

To me, at least, Red Orchestra will not be as much fun without the diveshot.

That said, I use bolt actions near-exclusively. People here seem to have the biggest issue with SMGs. SMGs have magazines. A dive to the ground with a shouldered SMG would probably jar the magazine enough to make it fail to feed. Particularly with a drum-magazine. Same thing with semi-automatics.

See where I'm getting with this?

 

[REZ]

Through the video I was able to see you bringing up IS while going to prone, yes... to me it didnt show any sort of advantage because you lined up your shots before you went prone (against bots to boot)... thats already easy to do with hipshots, especially at the range you were at... so does a visual bug constitute a fix? Maybe, if thats what they decide.

Until someone shows me a video where a guy is playing actual people and using this dive to prone thing all over the map, never missing, and unable to be killed, over and over again, then I would consider it an exploit... because theres nothing you can do about it... but in fact, this dive to prone move is a very poor tactic and very easily countered.. so in my mind more of a visual bug, or a realism nit-pick, than anything close to being called an exploit.


Devs, just add some fumbling animation with a percentage chance that the gun goes flying out of your hands upon impact with the ground.. lol. J/K

 

[stebbs]

OI you saying I'm a crap shot!!?? Only joking, but I only made that video to prove that you CAN shoot as you hit the ground, which was being disputed at the time, and because someone else did a video that wasn't working for some reason. Anyway it wasn't to show the effectiveness of the bug/feature at the time. TBH I should have used an SMG, because with the bolt its not particularly useful IMO in 90% of circumstances.

It's just my opinion, but the fact that its so unrealistic is enough reason to change it, but of course its not the only unrealistic thing in the game, but I think its one of the biggest unrealistic things that affects gameplay IMO negatively

lol, if you were that bad of a shot I would encourage using the IS/prone just to increase your kills.

I see your point, and certainly understand your fustration if it happens to you over and over. I still think it's easy to avoid, though, because when you see an enemy dive just move to the left or right, they are hitting fire at almost the same time that they hit IS, so their aim is set before they actually pull the trigger. The bullet's path is predetermined when they do that, so if you aren't there, you won't get hit.

I would like to see the SMG using this, because usually it just sprays anyway, just trying to hit anything, so maybe that would change my opinion.

 

[melipone]

Through the video I was able to see you bringing up IS while going to prone, yes... to me it didnt show any sort of advantage because you lined up your shots before you went prone (against bots to boot)... thats already easy to do with hipshots, especially at the range you were at... so does a visual bug constitute a fix? Maybe, if thats what they decide.

Until someone shows me a video where a guy is playing actual people and using this dive to prone thing all over the map, never missing, and unable to be killed, over and over again, then I would consider it an exploit... because theres nothing you can do about it... but in fact, this dive to prone move is a very poor tactic and very easily countered.. so in my mind more of a visual bug, or a realism nit-pick, than anything close to being called an exploit.


Devs, just add some fumbling animation with a percentage chance that the gun goes flying out of your hands upon impact with the ground.. lol. J/K

This is the most realistic FPS i've ever played and enjoyed, so maybe i'm starting to focus too much on what ISN'T realistic than what is. I guess I just want things consistant. I mean if you have realistic reload times, realistic movement speed I think you should have things like when you can bring the gun up after diving also realistic. Gameplay-wise though I don't mind things being altered for the sake of gameplay, (but not too much) but IMO this doesn't really add anything to the gameplay experience and if anything takes a bit away.

And good idea BTW LOL maybe you should also have a chance of being knocked out if you bring the IS up too fast.

 

[[5.SS]Strother]

The dive to IS isn't a gamebreaker, it doesn't happen very often, but it does happen sometimes when people have no other real choice (sort of like how people try and jump so you can't hit them). It takes some skill to pull off the diving IS properly, and against novice players it can work quite well. Of course it isn't widespread, I've only seen it used as a last resort when you catch someone offguard. Let's say a german rifleman runs around a house and about 10 feet away there is a russian looking at him and he is about to bring up the IS. This automatically puts the german into a disadvantage since the Russian may get the first aimed shot off. So the german dive IS and he gets the advantage of a smaller target while being able to bring up IS instantly when he hits the ground. This now gives the german the advantage. Basically the move creates an unrealistic advantage, you can't deny that, but you can argue about how much it is actually used.

By the way, if there was nothing wrong with this why would the devs even bother to "look into it"? They obviously feel there is something amuck.

 

[Reise]

The fact that it shouldn't be possible in the game is enough reason for me to agree with the dev's decision to look into it. If someone's got their aim on you and you can't do anything about it, tough luck.

 

[REZ]

Yes, Strother, I can and do, refute that this move offers an advantage, as its very easy to counter, and does not provide the offender with invulnerability. You are assuming that the attacker is armed with an SMG, has time to line up his shot prior to diving, and that his target is standing completely still at a close range. Thats alot of specifics to be met before this move has any sort of perceived advantage, not to mention said attacker is more vulnerable now that he is on the ground.

Let's say a german rifleman runs around a house and about 10 feet away there is a russian looking at him and he is about to bring up the IS. This automatically puts the german into a disadvantage since the Russian may get the first aimed shot off. So the german dive IS and he gets the advantage of a smaller target while being able to bring up IS instantly when he hits the ground. This now gives the german the advantage.

How does the German have the advantage? First of all he has a rifle, so sidestep him, perceived advantage gone. Also, regardless of how quick you can shoot upon hitting the ground, standing and bringing up your IS will always be faster than diving to the ground, so at that distance.... it's a lay-up whos going to kill who. If the Russian has an SMG in that example, the German is dead no matter what he does. There are just too many variables involved, and its a very specific situation for this to be even considered an advantageous move, let alone an exploit. An exploit would be when there is nothing you can do to kill the person, and that is hardly the case here.

No matter how you look at it, diving to prone and shooting quickly upon landing is not and never will be faster than simply crouching and shooting, or standing and shooting, so yes, in conclusion, I do not recognize this move to have any advantages.

After all of this rambling Strother, continuing to beat this dead horse doesnt make much of a difference at this point, they said they will look at it... now wait to see if you get your 'fix'.

 

[Panzer Meyer]

Yes, Strother, I can and do, refute that this move offers an advantage, as its very easy to counter, and does not provide the offender with invulnerability. You are assuming that the attacker is armed with an SMG, has time to line up his shot prior to diving, and that his target is standing completely still at a close range. Thats alot of specifics to be met before this move has any sort of perceived advantage, not to mention said attacker is more vulnerable now that he is on the ground.



How does the German have the advantage? First of all he has a rifle, so sidestep him, perceived advantage gone. Also, regardless of how quick you can shoot upon hitting the ground, standing and bringing up your IS will always be faster than diving to the ground, so at that distance.... it's a lay-up whos going to kill who. If the Russian has an SMG in that example, the German is dead no matter what he does. There are just too many variables involved, and its a very specific situation for this to be even considered an advantageous move, let alone an exploit. An exploit would be when there is nothing you can do to kill the person, and that is hardly the case here.

No matter how you look at it, diving to prone and shooting quickly upon landing is not and never will be faster than simply crouching and shooting, or standing and shooting, so yes, in conclusion, I do not recognize this move to have any advantages.

After all of this rambling Strother, continuing to beat this dead horse doesnt make much of a difference at this point, they said they will look at it... now wait to see if you get your 'fix'.

You are wrong and do not get it, simple as that.