A bit to heavy artillery????

[Janster]

For a realistic game, what is 155 to 200 mm artilierry pieces doing supporting 16 man??

With the continuing rain of shells, it makes the game a little boring at times.

Some 55mm mortars might be more realistic considering the scale.

It's weird how they can be so realistic on some things, and yet miss so badly on others.

Janster

 

[Midshipman]

The artillery is not supporting 16 men, it is supporting around 200 men depending on the map.

 

[REZ]

and tanks, and vehicles..

I actually think more arty would be even closer to RL, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Heinz]

a game like RO should depict relying on company/battalion/kampfgruppe level indirect fire. that consists of medium to heavy mortars in most cases.

regimental, or more so, divisional artillery could not always be counted on, as those resources were spread around the needs of the whole regiment or division in combat situations, depending upon need.

realistically, and for the most part, dudes in RO would/should be calling in available company-level mortars. these would range from 80 to 120mm.

 

[Janster]

Seriously, its too much arty..

And yes, even if it's supposed to simulate a part of larger conflict, I don't see no reason why this particular small squad skirmish should require constant 155 gun support.

80 to 120 mm, the 120 mm is a bit too big even, its not very mobile and actually is like a small artillery piece...

But even if they were here, you could expect around 15-20 rounds landing, not 200 + like here

Janster

 

[Boogerhead]

With the continuing rain of shells, it makes the game a little boring at times.

It's realistic. As someone pointed out, with reinforcements you're talking about ~200-man units.

Second, artillery was responsible for a huge chunk of casualties in World War II. It was two-thirds of deaths in World War I and 36 percent of deaths in Vietnam. I found this source here (in Table 40):
http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/korea/reister/ch3.htm
that claims all explosive projectile shells accounted for 51.2 percent of World War II deaths. Bullets were just 31.8 percent of deaths.

Remember how annoyed German get at the artillery in Kongisplatz?
That might have been more like the norm. ...

Curiously, grenades accounted for just one death in 200. I think because people are "just playing a game" and respawn 20 seconds later, the gameplay itself will differ from real-life situations even if all other factors are the same. I know I've done stuff in-game that I'd definitely think twice, three times, and a fourth before doing in real life.

 

[SiC-Disaster]

lol i dont really see the difference.. explosions are explosions, for the maps they are the right size, so making them smaller would reduce effectiveness IMO

i'd rather see them making it spread out a bit more, its to concentrated and youcan walk right around it

 

[Janster]

Hehe, its not realistic dude, one set of 155 mm would probably be supporting an entire brigade, not 16 men.

Quoting loss statistics, doesn't change this. I've played enough hardcore ww2 games to know the setup of companies and brigades.

80 mm would be just fine, and it would be more fun than having 155 pouring down like rain on positions.

Janster

 

[[TW]DrGuppy]

Hehe, its not realistic dude, one set of 155 mm would probably be supporting an entire brigade, not 16 men.

Janster

Again, it's not 16 men on a map as each time you die you come back as a 'new' soldier. If you take a look at the reinforcements for most map they're around 200 per side. 150mm guns on some maps in limited strikes supporting 200 men seems very reasonable to me. Yes, in real life the squad commander would not be calling in this kind of artillery himself but that's a compromise that has to be made for this type of game setup.

 

[Boogerhead]

Hehe, its not realistic dude, one set of 155 mm would probably be supporting an entire brigade, not 16 men.

Quoting loss statistics, doesn't change this. I've played enough hardcore ww2 games to know the setup of companies and brigades.

80 mm would be just fine, and it would be more fun than having 155 pouring down like rain on positions.

If you want to argue historical realism, don't argue about your experience in games.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula-Oder_Offensive

One tube of field artillery per 160 men
One mortar per 150 men
One barrage rocket launcher per 1,000 men

Now, I don't know the context of these numbers. If the 2.2 million soldiers are strictly frontline, these per-soldier numbers are fine. But what if they include the support network (transportation, communications, food, administration, maintenance, medical care) mixed in? The tooth-to-tail ratio is normally about 3:1.

Second, realize that artillery pieces tend to be pretty durable. They can get hit by counter-battery fire or bombed by planes, yes, but they're generally well behind the front line and, well, get destroyed slower than infantry. So as the assault continues, the ratio of artillery per soldier may increase.

Third, field artillery is a pooled asset. It's not that every 160 men have one tube. It's that every unitwill share access to a battery, such as six tubes. Not all of the units will be committed at the same time, meaning an engaged unit will typically get priority and a thus disproportionate share of artillery. Shells are relatively cheap.

Fourth, well, you're right about mortars being issued to companies en masse to reduce problems of fire control and asset allocation. That's an argument that, to be more realistic, there should be more "death from above" rather than less.

So, again, in short, if anything, Konigsplatz could be "World War II lite." Again, half the deaths were caused by artillery.

 

[Harry S. Truman]

Hehe, its not realistic dude, one set of 155 mm would probably be supporting an entire brigade, not 16 men.

Quoting loss statistics, doesn't change this. I've played enough hardcore ww2 games to know the setup of companies and brigades.

80 mm would be just fine, and it would be more fun than having 155 pouring down like rain on positions.

Janster

Are you really that dense? Did you read anything that anyone has posted? If it was just supposed to simulate 16 men, once you all died once the map would be over. Is there something about that you don't get?

 

[Monkwarrior]

I agree Janster.
I don't care if it's realistic or not: it's boring if arty is overused.
* Waiting for another realism-luny to come by and tell me "it's realistic"

Monk.

 

[DirtyRat]

Well I agree that arty can be deemed "unfair" in gameplay terms...their is nothing worse than dying at the hands of artillery.....

However since the patch, many of the maps like Basovka has much reduced artillery - it still beggars belief to watch your team charge into it Dont people realise, its just denying access to that area? They can walk round it!

My pet hate is commanders who artillery the objectives...they always deserve to be kicked for the TKs they make. Dont artillery the objective! Arty left or right to it, or just behind it!

I think arty adds a lot of atmosphere to the maps, for my taste it could be reduced slightly, but overall I think since the patch its much better.

 

[Vonreuter]

My pet hate is the player who thinks that a good rifleman should triumph over all obstacles in the game, and everything that gives a "noob" (i.e. a bad rifleman/SMGer) a chance is bad for the game and its playability.

War is not fair. Good riflemen died of artillery fire. Good riflemen were blasted with grenades in CQC without getting to show off their skills. Removing these so that some people can point and click their enemies to Hell would be stupidity. We can play a shooting simulation on a RO_Shooting_Range map.

War is Hell. It takes luck and skill to survive it.

 

[donkey]

It does strain belief that you have a large number of high calibre heavy guns firing close support missions.

I don't know how many guns a strike is supposed to be called from, but assuming you have 105mm, 122, 150 or 152mm guns firing in support it seems curious they can achieve a sustained firing rate of about 6 rounds per gun for as long as you have strikes available.

The other thing is that the strikes come in danger close (always) , don't drop short, don't go long and land in neat patterns in a clearly defined area, especially given your modelling guns firing at beyond their effective sustained rate of fire (or even rapid rate) called by an infantry NCO or junior officer.

Ideally, artillery should be limited to smaller stuff like 105mm and mortars in most cases, secondly, they should have a realastic rate of fire, third, they should require the fire to be adjusted and it should take longer to bring the battery into action and finally they should not be as deadly accurate.

In game play terms a section of 82mm mortars would provide a similiar effect in terms of area denial and produce substantial casualities.

As it is the artillery, especially the larger stuff is nerfed (it doesn't have a proper kill radius) and has an unrealastic intensity given that it is a close support fire supposedly called from one battery in support.

If you did those sorts of things you'd find atry would be more effective in gameplay terms and would reward players for thinking ahead and calling the fire a realastic distance from own team.

It might be different if the teams represented the very tip of the advance and had a fire plan.

 

[RedStorm]

The OP is right. RO arty isn't realistic as the shell spread of the heavy arty portrayed in-game should be about as big as an entire RO map, while it's about twenty feet in game. So instead of insulting the thread starter and jumping down his throat, you could actually check some real sources for info and draw more accurate conclusions from that.

Having "realistic" artillery just wouldn't be feasible in RO so they did the next best thing, scale it down a lot.

 

[daschewy]

that kind of heavy arty wouldnt even be supporting a company of men, most likely would have been small field guns and mortars not that kind of heavy stuff. Usually the heavy stuff was pre-planned to fall in certain areas or was at the descretion of people higher up in the COC.

 

[Wolfstuka]

well all i have to say is that the artillery seems too concentrated. I think it should rain on a larger area because when playing maps like arad arty is so worthless because of the little amount of space it rains down upon. i guess on smaller maps like basovka it wouldnt make sense to increase the area of impact but on large tank maps i think it is needed that arty impact on a larger area

 

[Jack]

Yeah, the key pionts seem to be:


1. Arty was not often directly controlled by low level officers, as in game currently. To be more realisitc the arty shouldn't be under such fine player control. I would like to see more random arty.


2. The arty is too concentrated. As someone said, the rounds would be impacting all over a typical map in real life, not within a 10 x 10 square.


3. Delays for arty adjustments aren't simulated. Especially with the Russians, it could take a very, very long time for a low level NCO to get arty allocated to him, but in game it takes just another trip back to the radio to set a new point.

4. Most often, in RO the maps seem to be in the aftermath of a major barrage used to soften an area, like Basovka. The fact that you can then keep calling arty in after the fighting starts seems somewhat silly .

Remember, these ranges look big from a first person perspective, but in real life, it would be the equivalent of calling arty down on your own position in many cases.

 

[Byte Me]

Copy & pasted from another thread (almost the same as this one ) that I posted in:

... In RO this is the arty availible for the German's (depends on map), according to the History and Tactics Guide (Page 63):

• 80mm motars - platoon or company level weapons
• 105mm guns - division level weapons
• 150mm guns/howitzers - division or corps level weapons

Artillery the Russian's use (page 79):

• 82mm motars - platoon or company level division weapons
• 76.2mm guns - regiment or division level weapons
• 122mm guns/howitzers - division or corps level weapons
• Rocket artillery - corps or army level; remember that this will fire in a single salvo of 16 or 32 rounds