Level Design New Possible Balance for Orel

[kabex]

Orel is a tank map. Please, keep away those infantry roles suggestions. It shouldn't have any transport vehicles at all.


IMO the best loadout of all posted. Just some thoughts:

- The T-60 is as useless as the F1.
- Pz3 tanks should be the AP/HE version.

Good points, I thought of adding the T-60 because it's wicked fast and could be used as more of a scout tank than a heavy tank, as it should. If we had the Sdkfz 222 we would see 1x T60 1x Sdkfz222.

BTW, if the PZ3 can't penetrate the T34 frontally with AP, I think we should add APCR rounds. Someone look this up, it would be silly to have 6 PZ3 vs 6 T34s, without the PZ3 being able to penetrate the T34's.

Possibly remove the T60, add another T34.

 

[Victor_Mdv]

I believe that 20 APCR rounds are too many. What about having 10 or so?

BTW, I found this rarity values on CMBB database (june 43)

5 Pz4 F2/G
5 Stug G
20 Pz3 J
40 Tiger

-10 T34/76
20 KV1-s
40 SU-76 (had just started production)

 

[kabex]

I believe that 20 APCR rounds are too many. What about having 10 or so?

BTW, I found this rarity values on CMBB database (june 43)

5 Pz4 F2/G
5 Stug G
20 Pz3 J
40 Tiger

-10 T34/76
20 KV1-s
40 SU-76 (had just started production)

We need heavy testing to see how the APCR fares vs the sloped armor of the T34...

Anyway, the T34/76 is light years ahead of the Panzer3, let's be honest here. It's gangrape.

I think it's going to need ALL the help it can get, but the gameplay should revolve around the PZ4s and the Tiger, the Panzer3s will simply be cannon fodder tanks that will have to play their cards right, hide, outmanouver, protect its bigger siblings, etc.

The Pz3 is not supposed to go head to head, that's why it has a lot of mobility. The Pz4's are the ones that are supposed to be firing at the T34 up front.

The tactics employed thanks to this loadouts would be very interesting to see, indeed. I want to know what more people think of my suggested loadout.

If balance wasn't a problem and all we wanted was complete historical authenticity, I would say throw 9x PzIVG vs 9x T34/76(+2x stug - 2x su-76 3x KV1s), but that's going to be a rapefest. Especially with the support of even a single Tiger.

 

[Santini]

Wait, is the T-34/76 in the game the one with the F-34 or the L-11?

 

[Daemion]

Why is everybody whining about a tiger being in that map? Actually there are two Panthers in. If you guys have a look on the datasheets you would see, that the Panther is (by far) superior to the Tiger in allmost every aspect except side- and rear armor.
On the other hand the allies get loads of T34/85 which are able to blow away the PzKw IV's with ease. Also their speed is an huge advantage on that map, cause they reach the capzones by far earlier than every axis vehicle.

I think the germans SHOULD get some Tigers there (two or so). That beasts are that slow that it tooks decades to get them to the front which brings a good speed vs. armor/firepower ballance aspect in.
Also the T34/85 should be removed and replaced with T34/76. The 76's are allready an awfull hard oponent for the PzKw IV's. Maybe some KV's and PzKw III's for more diversity.

 

[Rameusb5]

If your puting in a tank thats not saposed to be there then its not "historicly balanced".

Besides the T-34 M41 (the one in game) had the same gun and practicly the same armor values as the T-34 M42 and M43. (the "hex" turreted vertions).

well any way heres what the germans had on the northern side of Kursk.

Panzer 2: 24 vehicals
Panzer 3(L42): 51 vehicals
Panzer 3(L60): 74 vehicals
Panzer 3(75): 61 vehicals (same gun as the panzer 4 F1)
Panzer 4(L24): 25 vehicals
Panzer 4(L43+): 273 vehicals
Panzer 6: 31 vehicals
StuG 3: 100+ vehicals

The soviets had
Bryansk front
4th tank army: 585 medium/heavy tanks, 98 light, and 57 assault guns
+ 12th tank corps with 196 med/hvy tanks and 20 assault guns
+ 1st Gaurds tank corps with 174 med/hvy tanks
-------
Central front
2nd tank army with 386 med/hvy tanks, 168 lt tanks and 16 assault guns
13th army with 235 med/hvy tanks, 28 Lt tanks and 16 assault guns
+9th tank corps with 96 med/hvy tanks, 63 light tanks and 50 assault guns
+19th tank corps with 96 med/hvy tanks 63 light tanks

thats a lot a tanks folks (and note im only counting the major tank users here for the Bryansk and Central fronts had a combind totle of 2,677 medium and heavy tanks! -mosly medium (T-34)).

the sorce of much of the dats is from here.
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/vy75/str.htm

Thanks for posting this!

Assuming that Orel is supposed to represent this battle, this is a good list to work from. Here's what I'm thinking:

Put the "Crappier" tanks in the initial spawn, and the "better" tanks forward, so at least you have to drive to the good tanks (otherwise, nobody would bother with the crappy tanks at all, and it's not even worth putting on the map).

So at the rear spawn you would have T34/76's and Su76's, and at the forward spawn you would have KV1's and T34/76's. (No T34/85's because they weren't deployed yet).

For the Germans, I would put the PzIII's and IVF2's at the rear spawn, and the Tiger and PzIVF2's at the forward spawn. Note that I said "Tiger" and not Tigers.


And before everyone freaks out about how the Tiger would be sooo powerful, remember one thing: Artillery. Give the Russians twice as much artillery as the Germans. To compensate, give the Germans panzerfausts ONLY TO BE PICKED UP at their forward base (North village?). Drop the satchel charge from everybody. So if the Germans get a Tiger on the heights overlooking the Russian bridge... just call down an artillery strike on him.


IMHO, there should ALWAYS be some infantry options available, but that's up to debate. I'd worry less about it if we could get more players than 32 on a single map.

 

[kabex]

Why is everybody whining about a tiger being in that map? Actually there are two Panthers in. If you guys have a look on the datasheets you would see, that the Panther is (by far) superior to the Tiger in allmost every aspect except side- and rear armor.
On the other hand the allies get loads of T34/85 which are able to blow away the PzKw IV's with ease. Also their speed is an huge advantage on that map, cause they reach the capzones by far earlier than every axis vehicle.

I think the germans SHOULD get some Tigers there (two or so). That beasts are that slow that it tooks decades to get them to the front which brings a good speed vs. armor/firepower ballance aspect in.
Also the T34/85 should be removed and replaced with T34/76. The 76's are allready an awfull hard oponent for the PzKw IV's. Maybe some KV's and PzKw III's for more diversity.

The map is a beta, and it's supposed to be set in '43(pre kursk). We want historical loadouts.

The Panther wasn't really available yet(they were just out of production and broke down a lot and didn't really see combat, etc) and the Tiger was in its prime.

The T34/85 was not available at the time of that map, nor the IS2(or Panther, as I said), we want to balance the loadouts according to reality.

The problem with that, would be that Germans would be a little overpowered in their PZ4F/2s, so we are brainstorming on what is best for both teams. In the real battle, there were a ton more Soviet tanks, but this can't be modelled in the game, it wouldn't make sense. We have to give the Germans lesser tanks(Pz3) and few moderate tanks(Pz4) and of course the Tiger(I think a single one would suffice).

The Soviets should get hordes of T34/76 as was common.

Drop the satchel charge from everybody.

And add ammo-boxes with satchels near bridges so people can blow them up, otherwise it's impossible. I agree, remove the freaking satchels.

 

[akd]

The map is a beta, and it's supposed to be set in '43(pre kursk). We want historical loadouts.

The battle for the Orel bulge (Operation Kutusov) occured just after Kursk.

The Panther wasn't really available yet(they were just out of production and broke down a lot and didn't really see combat, etc) and the Tiger was in its prime.

There were 100 Panthers available for Operation Citadel, but they were with Army Group South, on the opposite side of the Russian saliant from Orel. I'm not aware that any were moved North in response to the soviet counter-offensive against Orel.

The T34/85 was not available at the time of that map, nor the IS2(or Panther, as I said), we want to balance the loadouts according to reality.

The problem with that, would be that Germans would be a little overpowered in their PZ4F/2s, so we are brainstorming on what is best for both teams. In the real battle, there were a ton more Soviet tanks, but this can't be modelled in the game, it wouldn't make sense. We have to give the Germans lesser tanks(Pz3) and few moderate tanks(Pz4) and of course the Tiger(I think a single one would suffice).

The Soviets should get hordes of T34/76 as was common.

Pz IVF/2 overpowered? The Germans should actually have a later Pz. IV with a longer gun.

And add ammo-boxes with satchels near bridges so people can blow them up, otherwise it's impossible. I agree, remove the freaking satchels.

Good idea. Boxes should be located on the German side, as this would nice represent the bridges being prepped for demolition and the Soviet need to capture and cross the bridges before destroying them.

 

[Nebfer]

well historicly the germans has two panzer 4s for every panzer 3 on the field, and one tiger for every 15 panzer 3 and 4s thy had...

so historicly it shuld be more like this.
1x tiger
3x panzer 3
6x panzer 4(G)
2-3x StuG 3

Though I could accept a more even number (to help out the pore ruskys)
5xPanzer 3
4-5xPanzer 4(G)
1xTiger
2xStuG

with the soviets having some thing like this
9x T-34/76
2xKV-1
1xT-60 (though IRL it shuld be way higher than this)
2xSU-76

It shuld be noted that all Panthers at this time period where with army group south on the sothern flank of the Kursk salient (this battle takes place on the north side of the salient).

as for recent comments the Panzer 4 at the te time was the late model G (with a few H models here and there) both had the L48 gun -a slightly better gun than the L43 on earlyer G models (that are in the game.)

 

[kabex]

There were 100 Panthers available for Operation Citadel, but they were with Army Group South, on the opposite side of the Russian saliant from Orel. I'm not aware that any were moved North in response to the soviet counter-offensive against Orel.

Someone did point this out a while ago, but they were early Panthers, not the ones modelled in the game. Anyway, as you said, there were none in this operation.

Pz IVF/2 overpowered? The Germans should actually have a later Pz. IV with a longer gun.

I agree, but we will have 500 Soviet fans crying all over the place that their T34/76s are being owned by PZIVf/2s, even if they are more even than not, we really need a PanzerIV H btw.

 

[Heinz]

I've taken the liberty to change the loadouts slightly, just for shits'n giggles:

Numbers include BOTH spawns (initial / forward)

German:
2x Tiger (initial only)
10x PzIVF2 (5/5)
5x PZIII (3/2)
3x StuG (2/1)

Russian:
2x KV (1/1)
15x T34/76 (8/5)
3x SU76 (initial only)
So, the more homogenous force of the russians will, if coordinated, be able to swamp the more diverse german forces with T34, as was not uncommon or so i've read *o_0*, but the germans have two Tigers and with an equal coordinated german effort, this can be countered. Adapt and overcome...


81.169.136.6
1.AR Ostfront Server
RO-Orel-88vs76

Give it a try and see how it works out...

ps. DL link http://www.1armee.com/down/RO-Orel-88vs76.rom
also redirect on server only 5MB finally

THIS is how the map should have come out. well done! watch this version supplant the old one on the servers! I know I am recommending this one to my team ASAP.

 

[kabex]

THIS is how the map should have come out. well done! watch this version supplant the old one on the servers! I know I am recommending this one to my team ASAP.

It's a good loadout, but I am afraid many people will complain that the Soviets are losing too much. With the current map, the Axis get raped every time though.

Heinz, you should put it up on the RTR server and give it a whirl with 32 players. I am sure it'll fill up nicely, I'll see you on the server if you do.

Also: I think there are too few tanks, there needs to be 13 tanks in each spawn minimum, 15 preferable.

 

[Kurt Naake]

Don't balance the map for full servers. The balance should be fair for all players no matter if people fight 5 vs 5 or 15 vs 15.

 

[Witzig]

Also: I think there are too few tanks, there needs to be 13 tanks in each spawn minimum, 15 preferable.

Well the Map Designer is away for more than a month, so any changes will have to wait. And i suggest using 2 Factories may per tank Type and just allowing multiple instances, so you don't have that many active Actors. Doesn't look as good, but one ain't staying that much in the Spawn anyway.

One thing everyone should keep in mind is that the T34/76 can't penetrate the Tiger from the Front under any circumstances, and has to get a flat angle on the Side to achieve penetration. So i would suggest giving the Russians Artillery, with the ability to call it nearly non Stop, and the Germans maybe 3 Strikes. And 2-3 Kommandirs for the Russians, nothing like multiple Kommandirs contermanding their own Orders .

 

[kabex]

Don't balance the map for full servers. The balance should be fair for all players no matter if people fight 5 vs 5 or 15 vs 15.

You underestimate Orel, I've yet to see it in a half empty server, unless there's already 2 full servers running it.

Seriously, whenever Orel is on the server fill ups instantly, it's amazing. It should be balanced for 32 players, not a single less. The map is always full.

 

[Kipper]

I like Enigma's loadout. Tiger plzkthxbai

 

[Solo4114]

I think a single tiger is fine, with a relatively diverse loadout of PzIIIs and IVGs for the Germans, and a whole mess of T34s.

This way, the Tiger can really shine (as it does), but can't cover the whole map.

The Tiger is a fearsome presence, no question, but it can be out maneuvered. In a one on one duel, unless it happens at extreme close range, you've got no chance. Your best bet is to haul ass away in that case.

The KV1S will only really be useful against the PzIVGs and PzIIIs. Against the Tiger I suspect it's probably worse off than the T34, given its slower speed. And while it has extra armor, that extra armor doesnt' make enough of a difference vs. the Tiger to make it worthwhile.

One other thing, and I don't know if people have a way to adjust this -- I'd move the initial spawn to what is currently the 2nd spawn, and maybe create a different intermediate spawn. I think the map is big enough that it will still remain fun for long-range tank battles and tactics, without having the "Are we there yet?" feel it currently has.

 

[Heinz]

It's a good loadout, but I am afraid many people will complain that the Soviets are losing too much. With the current map, the Axis get raped every time though.

ha ha, I fell so bad for them! let's have a little pity party, just for them. at least they will know how the axis tankers feel on every other freakin' map with the stupid un-historical, soviet-biased tank allotments.

Heinz, you should put it up on the RTR server and give it a whirl with 32 players. I am sure it'll fill up nicely, I'll see you on the server if you do.
.

I am trying to do that right now. sometimes, acheiving things in a democracy is slow. if it was purely up to me, it'd be done already, no further discussion.

 

[HotDang]

My thoughts are that the PIV F1 sit in the spawn unused, people even prefering to take a stug.

Germans have no arty and russians have endless arty, once all the destroyable bridges are blown the germans are completely screwed as arty just drops repeatedly at the remaining bridge.

Ignoring those small issues tho it's a good map

 

[Santini]

Actually, I've changed my wee little mind
Germans:
3 Pz IV F1's
7 Pz III J's
2 Pz IV F2's
3 Stug
1 Tiger

= 1 uber tank, 5 damned good tanks, 7 okay tanks, and 3 tanks for those who hate team tanking
16 total

Russians:
3 T-60
2 KV-1
5 T-34/76
3 T-34/85
3 SU-76

= 3 semi uber tanks, 8 damned good tanks, 2 okay tanks, 3 tanks for those who hate team tanking
16 total

So it's allmost completly even, and has 16 tanks, so even if it's a server full of TT haters, there's no lag time, just some crappier tanks