Bondarevo: what is PzIV with 75/L24 good for?

[daschewy]

Ausf. L with the L42-gun according to the historical and tactical guide.

No thats incorrect, the first model with the L/60 5cm gun was the J/1 or as the British called it, the J special. All models after the J/1 used the L/60 cannon minus the ausf N.

 

[Heldentod]

Ooops. I gather you mean post-patch? Ahhh. I see said the blind man. that shows me! I have not played Bonda-rape-oh in a long time for obvious reasons (German tankers know what I mean).

thanks for the correction, I was un-aware!

Bonadrevo ain

 

[Solo4114]

Ide like to kow is the panzer 4F using HEAT round foer AP or is it just reguler AP? as it some times seems it capable of penitrating more than the 45mm its saposed to be doing...

It depends on range, I believe. The PzIV is operating at mostly close range on that map, although it's not firing HEAT rounds. As far as I know, HEAT didn't really appear until mid-to-late war (like, '43 and on). I could be wrong on that, though.

Still, those early and mid war panzers wouldn't be packing HEAT. On this map, it's AP. I also think that the engagement ranges on that map aren't much more than 200-300m, due to terrain obstacles (the hill, houses, trees, etc.). Thus, you may still be getting penetrating shots with the AP rounds, even though the velocity is slower than all the other tank's guns. At those ranges, the velocity will still be enough to punch through armor.

Still, I'd rather hop in the PzIV F1 and instantly switch to HE rounds. Loading with AP would only be worthwhile when (a) you're confronted with an enemy and (b) you have time to reload.

Incidentally, as I understand it, it's precisely this lack of versatility that led the German army to abandon the PzIII/PzIV approach to tanking, and focus on more well-rounded tanks. Most of the armies in WWII began the war using tanks as primarily infantry support, and tank destroyers (not the same thing) as, well, tank destroyers. (the Brits had a different approach altogether, though -- they had "cruisers" and "infantry" tanks.) The PzIII isn't a tank destroyer exactly (not like, say, a Marder), but it operates in a similar role in conjunction with the PzIV.

In American tank doctrine, the equivalent would (I think) be the Wolverine (in the PzIII role) and the Sherman (in the PzIV role). Although that's PURELY in terms of the overall ROLE the various AFVs played, and NOT in terms of their performance. The Wolverine is a later design than the PzIII and was a bit more specialized, as I understand it.

 

[akd]

It depends on range, I believe. The PzIV is operating at mostly close range on that map, although it's not firing HEAT rounds. As far as I know, HEAT didn't really appear until mid-to-late war (like, '43 and on). I could be wrong on that, though.

Still, those early and mid war panzers wouldn't be packing HEAT. On this map, it's AP. I also think that the engagement ranges on that map aren't much more than 200-300m, due to terrain obstacles (the hill, houses, trees, etc.). Thus, you may still be getting penetrating shots with the AP rounds, even though the velocity is slower than all the other tank's guns. At those ranges, the velocity will still be enough to punch through armor.

I'm certain 75mm HEAT (Gr38 H1/A) was available throughout the campaign, but was issued only in small numbers (just as with the 75mm L/24 infantry guns). A typical load for the Pz IV L/24 would have been 25% AP, 65% HE and 10% smoke, with a handful of HEAT rounds mixed in. I assume we have regular AP and HE in game.

Still, I'd rather hop in the PzIV F1 and instantly switch to HE rounds. Loading with AP would only be worthwhile when (a) you're confronted with an enemy and (b) you have time to reload.

Incidentally, as I understand it, it's precisely this lack of versatility that led the German army to abandon the PzIII/PzIV approach to tanking, and focus on more well-rounded tanks. Most of the armies in WWII began the war using tanks as primarily infantry support, and tank destroyers (not the same thing) as, well, tank destroyers. (the Brits had a different approach altogether, though -- they had "cruisers" and "infantry" tanks.) The PzIII isn't a tank destroyer exactly (not like, say, a Marder), but it operates in a similar role in conjunction with the PzIV.

In American tank doctrine, the equivalent would (I think) be the Wolverine (in the PzIII role) and the Sherman (in the PzIV role). Although that's PURELY in terms of the overall ROLE the various AFVs played, and NOT in terms of their performance. The Wolverine is a later design than the PzIII and was a bit more specialized, as I understand it.

The comparison is not at all apt or helpful. In fact, the Germans never abandoned the PzIII/IV approach, and the PzIV remained the primary tank in German service through the end of the war. What is interesting is how their roles reversed. The Pz III was a medium tank and continued in that role until being rearmed with the low-velocity 75mm the Pz IV began with. Whereas, because the Pz. III could no longer be uparmed to deal with new armor threats, the Pz. IV support tank was uparmed and assumed the role of the primary medium tank of the German military. Both continued in service through the end of the war, primarily in panzer or panzergrenadier units (as opposed to specialized AT units, which were equipped with AT or assault gun vehicles), although the short 75 Pz. III was used in large numbers in the specialized heavy panzer battalions alongside the Tiger.

The design of the Panther pointed the way to a "standard" tank that could replace many of the above in various roles, but was never produced in sufficient numbers to assume that role.

 

[Solo4114]

Great, you win then.

 

[engineer]

Tanks in the IV series were ment to be Self-Propelled guns made to knock buildings down. Only with the IV G were they supposed to be used against other tanks.

 

[Santini]

They're meant as the german armored response to anti tank guns, capible of firing both smoke to obscure and HE to kill

 

[akd]

lol people, they were meant as general infantry support tanks, nothing so specialized as y'all are making them out to be. They weren't SPGs, they weren't urban specialists, they certainly weren't anti-anti-tank tanks.

 

[Santini]

Dude, Stugs are infantry support. That's why they are drawn from artillery crew
And Panzer IV's were to support Panzer III's.
Don't spout what you don't know

 

[akd]

Dude, Stugs are infantry support. That's why they are drawn from artillery crew
And Panzer IV's were to support Panzer III's.
Don't spout what you don't know

I "spout" what I read, not what I pull out of my ass. Pz. IV actually entered service before the Pz. III, although conceived in concert. Of course, the first StuG didn't enter service until quite a bit later, so that is kind of irrelevant. To quote George Forty:

At that meeting [Heerseswaffenamt on January 11, 1934], the basic classes of AFVs were agreed, the role chosen for the medium tank being that of close support

Pz. IV was a medium support tank, until later armed with a long 75mm. "Infantry tank" would probably be the closest English designation, but not quite the same meaning, as German doctrine was different. Dont' get hung up on terminology.

Now remind what the point of all this was? Oh yeah, what is the early Pz. IV good for? Exactly what it was in real life: close support to bring fire against enemy infantry, guns, strong points, etc. The game engine limits its utility, as does its appearance on maps that are armor dominated.

 

[Santini]

Close support of ARMOR

 

[LukeFF]

Both continued in service through the end of the war, primarily in panzer or panzergrenadier units (as opposed to specialized AT units, which were equipped with AT or assault gun vehicles), although the short 75 Pz. III was used in large numbers in the specialized heavy panzer battalions alongside the Tiger.

Correct, but this TOE, otherwise known as Organization D, only lasted until March 1943, because it was found the Pz. III had insufficient firepower and armor to support the Tigers in battle. The new Organization E thus did away with the Pz. IIIs altogether.

 

[akd]

Correct, but this TOE, otherwise known as Organization D, only lasted until March 1943, because it was found the Pz. III had insufficient firepower and armor to support the Tigers in battle. The new Organization E thus did away with the Pz. IIIs altogether.

I believe they were a stop-gap anyways, as there were not enough Tigers to meet the Organization E type structure when the units were organized. Not sure where these Pz. IIIs went after they left the heavy panzer battalions. I don't believe they were removed from frontline service at that point.

 

[Santini]

I know alot of the old N's got their turrets poped off and replaced with a round canvas cover, then used as armored munitions vehicals

 

[Jack]

Bottom line is that Panzer IV with the L24 gun was for infantry support. The German design briefs said so!


In RO, we don't get to see this used to its potential because we do not have destructable buildings. Russian infantry can run inside a peasant shack, and be completely safe from any round that hits teh structure....so it doesn't matter if it is hit with a 75mm HE or a 50mm AP.


This fact kind of negates the usefullness of the Panzer IV F1. In Combat Mission, you can use it to suppress infantry, and to obliterate houses and larger buildings, clearing out potential hidey holes for enemy tank hunters.



I don't even bother with the F1.

 

[Santini]

Goddamit, you're making me say it again
Panzer IV is for killing infantry and AT guns from withen the Panzer wedge formation, firing over the top of Pz II's, III's and 38t's

The Stug III w/ L/24 (Not modelled in game) is the assualt gun intended for infantry support. Read the Stug operational breifings. For example, they rotate out in pairs, because having no Stug's around would lead to a morale collapse of friendly infantry, etc

No where I have read says that the Pz IV's were intended for use outside of the Panzer forces

 

[daschewy]

Goddamit, you're making me say it again
Panzer IV is for killing infantry and AT guns from withen the Panzer wedge formation, firing over the top of Pz II's, III's and 38t's

The Stug III w/ L/24 (Not modelled in game) is the assualt gun intended for infantry support. Read the Stug operational breifings. For example, they rotate out in pairs, because having no Stug's around would lead to a morale collapse of friendly infantry, etc

No where I have read says that the Pz IV's were intended for use outside of the Panzer forces

except for in North Africa where they were used as infantry support due to the fact that there were about 40-50 stugs throughout the entire campaign.

 

[Santini]

INTENDED
Read it and weep

 

[daschewy]

you said panzer IV was only used for panzer formations and I said that in NA it was used with infantry formations to replace the stug

Read it and weep

 

[Santini]

Goddamit, you're making me say it again
Panzer IV is for killing infantry and AT guns from withen the Panzer wedge formation, firing over the top of Pz II's, III's and 38t's

The Stug III w/ L/24 (Not modelled in game) is the assualt gun intended for infantry support. Read the Stug operational breifings. For example, they rotate out in pairs, because having no Stug's around would lead to a morale collapse of friendly infantry, etc

No where I have read says that the Pz IV's were intended for use outside of the Panzer forces


Did I say what is was for or what it did