CaptRio said:
Ready racks are racks where the loader keeps shells to be inserted into the turret's main gun.
I'd love to see a loader position implemented but I suppose it might get kind of dull.
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Red Orchestra's Tiger x real life Tiger
- Thread starter CaptRio
- Start date
Ready racks are racks where the loader keeps shells to be inserted into the turret's main gun.
I'd love to see a loader position implemented but I suppose it might get kind of dull.
Comrade Wasabi said:Ready racks are racks where the loader keeps shells to be inserted into the turret's main gun.
I'd love to see a loader position implemented but I suppose it might get kind of dull.
Thanks
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Since some people are describing HEAT (or hollow charges, or shaped charges, or whatever you want to call them), I'm going to post this post I made on HEAT. Also since some people are describing "superheating of armor" with AP type rounds, I'm going to post the second part of my post as well.
"Alright, alright, Im gonna have to clear some things up. The information yall are describing about HEAT warheads is completely wrong. HEAT rounds dont direct the explosions in one direction, in fact, thats about as extreme from the truth as you can get. Before I explain what HEAT rounds actually do, let me explain about the explosive properties. HEAT rounds are still HE. The explosion goes in all directions. The reason for not being the best at anti- personal is because the HEAT casings arent designed to fragment properely. An example of the comparison would be a hand grenade and a pipe bomb with out shrapnel (nuts bolts etc.) loaded inside. The hand grenede is designed to fragment, hence it kills people with shrapnel. The pipe bomb, although the casing is metal, blows up, sending reletively little shrapnel into the air (in comparison to the hand grenade). The pipe bomb, just like the HEAT round, still has as much EXPLOSIVE power as the hand grenade.
So the point of this part of my explanation is, yes, AT weapons (bazooka, Panzerschreck, etc.) can effectively be used against light fortifications (earth bunkers, wooden bunkers, buildings, light structures, etc.). In fact, the old U.S. LAW weapon was used in vietnam as an anti-bunker weapon, as well as the modern U.S. AT4 is used against structures in Iraq as well as caves and the like in Afghanistan.
Now onto the AT properties of HEAT weapons. Im gonna draw some pictures but Im going to show what really happens, as well as the different properties of the different shapes. Here we go.
http://img54.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heat9su.png
http://img73.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heat26ef.png
Ok, Heres what the first picture shows (Ill explain 2 and 3 later)
1 is the explosive filler
2 is the metal liner
3 is the Standoff fuse
And the second picture shows the penetration of the liner for the different liner shapes. (this is now the second picture)
From top to bottom then far right
- Self forging fragment charge
- the Schardin Charge
- P charge
- Hollow Charge
Ok, now for the explanations.
A HEAT (hollow charge) round, is essentially a cylinder of HE, with the front of the explosive shaped conically inward. In this cavity is a conical metal liner, fitted very tightly. At the end is the standoff fuse (explained later). The HE is detonated in the rear of the explosive, creating a high-pressure shockwave that heads to the front of the round reaching the thin tip of the liner first at speeds of about 8000 m/s. As the shockwave passes over the liner, it forces it to collapse, starting at the narrow tip. The walls of the liner slam against each other, creating pressures so far above the yeild strenght of the liner material that the metal flows in a fluid fashion, even though the temperature is below the melting point of the material. So now a long jet of liner shoots forward through the open end of the cone. This jet is moving so quickly (around 10000 m/s) that if forces the armor to flow to the sides of the stream, opening a long narrow crater in the path of the jet. So it doesnt actually "burn" a hole in the armor, but actually forces it aside.
The tips of these jets erode as they penetrate deeper, meaning the get shorter as the pass through armor, so the length of the jet determines how far it can penetrate. Now this is where the standoff fuse comes into play. This is also the trickiest part. The tip of this jet moves thousands of meters a second faster than its base, so the jet stretches as it moves forward, and will eventually break up into a series of particles. The deepest penetration occurs when the jet has time and space to stretch out as long as possible withouth breaking apart. So the standoff fuse sets the round off at a distance where maximum penetration can be achieved (most efficient jet). The standoff is measured in cone diameters (CD). The optimum Ci is around 4 to 7. CD can be determined by dividing standoff by diameter, so an 80mm HEAT shell has a standoff of 160mm means that (160/80 = 2) it has a CD of 2. Realizing this means realizing that its nearly impossible to build an optimal standoff into large warheads, so sometimes small liners can outperform large liners because of the ability to have a better standoff.
Now heres where the shape of the liner comes into play. The Thinner/longer the stream (check picture three) the greater the penetration, but the worse the behind-armor effects, where as the Broader/shorter the stream the worse the penetration but the greater the behind-armor effects.
There are other factors as well, like adding certain materials to the explosive to shape the wave for better collapsing of the liner, as well as quality of manufacture of the liner and its alloy and thickness.
Well, thats basically everything you would ever want to know about Shaped charges (Hollow charge, HEAT round, whatever). This should also clear up some misconceptions about possible uses for AT weapons (refering back to the first paragraph)."
PART 2
"....8. APFSDS (Armor Piercing Fin Stabalized Discarding Sabot)
APFSDS - Ah, now this round. This round is basically a large solid dart (kinda like a flachette, though called a penetrator) that is enclosed in a sabot. A modern penetrator is about 60 to 80 cm long and about 2 to 2.5 cm wide. This round relies solely on kinetic energy. Its pointed tip pushes armor aside as it penetrates the armor, but at the same time its constantly being eroded and slowing down. So heres the tricky part to APFSDS rounds. The longer the penetrator, the greater the amount of time it takes to erode it, thus the more armor it can penetrate. But increases length also increases weight, which decrease velocity. So to counter-act this, the penetrator is made thinner, which decreases the weight. This mutual tradeoff is described by its I/d ratio, which is the length of the rod divided by its diameter. As the I/d ratio grows, so does the penetration. But the longer and thinner the penetrator gets, the weaker it becomes, which means that it is more likely to bend or break (even when accelerating in the barrel). Longer and sturdier Sabot petals can be used to counter-act this, but again, this adds more weight, decreasing velocity. Ways to counter-act these rounds by adding lateral force have been designed, from sloped armor to spaced armor to heavy reactive armor. So APFSDS penetrators are carefully made to bend slightly without breaking to protect against these lateral forces.
Now some plus sides of U.S. APFSDS rounds compared to other rounds.
U.S. penetrators are made of Depleted Uranium (DU), which is inherently more dense than tungsten. Now yall dont need to know about the enrichment process of Uranium, which is how you get DU, nore the percentages of the isotopes of uranium (youll never get it from me ). DU is extremely inexpensive for the U.S. to manufacture, have so much left over from the nuclear industry. Small fragments of DU (that chip off when penetrating materials) are pyrophoric, meaning that when exposed to air, they spontanously comubust, adding an incendiary effect to the round. Another thing is when DU is alloyed with titanium (yall dont need to know the percentages of this either ) it reacts with pressure by adaibatic shear. This means under pressure, very narrow bands of weakness shear off the penetrator, which means there is always a sharp chisel like point on the end of the penetrator as it penetrates. This also means it takes less force, as all the force is always on the point ahead. This is very unlike tungsten, which mushrooms as it pentrates, meaning the amount of force to pentrate increases as the round penetrates deeper into the armor. ......."
Ok its a long read, but heres the jist of my points (and some others).
- The current U.S. APFSDS round goes 1680 m/s, while the average WW2 round varied from 685 to 1018 m/sec for the normal AP rounds.
- Modern APFSDS rounds dont "burn" through armor by superheating, they actually push the armor aside. I would assume that the reason for the superheated round or armor is from all the friction and heat released from the round penetrating the armor. I would also go on to assume that this is how WW2 round generally penetrated armor as well, meaning that they pushed the armor aside and all superheated effects were caused by the friction and heat released. Granted the superheating effects could help in penetration (im not sure), I still think that the basics of penetration is not "burning" a hole in the armor.
This is also how I believe how sloped armor defeats AP rounds. Not that the force is dissapated over a large enough area that the armor is "superheated" that the force is dissapated over a large enough area that the round doesnt create a large enough "crater" in the armor before its momentum is shifted (thus the round richochetes). Take a look at Tigers were rounds were defeated or richocheted, there are still pretty good dings in the armor where you can see that the round hit. If penetration was based on superheating, I doubt you would see this.
Also Jack, DU rounds arnt the only round that "superheats", what your talking about is explained in my repost called pyrophoric effects. This does only happen with DU, but it only adds an incendiary effect to penetration. "Superheating" would be like when molten metal sprays inside a tank, the metal is molten because of the friction and heat released, not the pyrophoric effects. So tungsten rounds can "superheat" as well as others, though I dont believe superheating is the major factor in penetration. I mean take a look at how a HEAT round works, the conical liner isnt superheated, its actually below melting point while it penetrates, because it pushes the armor aside. But while its doing this, theres major friction and heat being released, so..... molten spall.
As for the T/d thing, I dont know much about it really. It sounds logical, if you look at some knocked out tanks, some of them look like the round just "punched' a hole in the armor. so......
I'm might not hit every point, but my reposts should have cleared up some stuff without me explaining.
"Alright, alright, Im gonna have to clear some things up. The information yall are describing about HEAT warheads is completely wrong. HEAT rounds dont direct the explosions in one direction, in fact, thats about as extreme from the truth as you can get. Before I explain what HEAT rounds actually do, let me explain about the explosive properties. HEAT rounds are still HE. The explosion goes in all directions. The reason for not being the best at anti- personal is because the HEAT casings arent designed to fragment properely. An example of the comparison would be a hand grenade and a pipe bomb with out shrapnel (nuts bolts etc.) loaded inside. The hand grenede is designed to fragment, hence it kills people with shrapnel. The pipe bomb, although the casing is metal, blows up, sending reletively little shrapnel into the air (in comparison to the hand grenade). The pipe bomb, just like the HEAT round, still has as much EXPLOSIVE power as the hand grenade.
So the point of this part of my explanation is, yes, AT weapons (bazooka, Panzerschreck, etc.) can effectively be used against light fortifications (earth bunkers, wooden bunkers, buildings, light structures, etc.). In fact, the old U.S. LAW weapon was used in vietnam as an anti-bunker weapon, as well as the modern U.S. AT4 is used against structures in Iraq as well as caves and the like in Afghanistan.
Now onto the AT properties of HEAT weapons. Im gonna draw some pictures but Im going to show what really happens, as well as the different properties of the different shapes. Here we go.
http://img54.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heat9su.png
http://img73.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heat26ef.png
Ok, Heres what the first picture shows (Ill explain 2 and 3 later)
1 is the explosive filler
2 is the metal liner
3 is the Standoff fuse
And the second picture shows the penetration of the liner for the different liner shapes. (this is now the second picture)
From top to bottom then far right
- Self forging fragment charge
- the Schardin Charge
- P charge
- Hollow Charge
Ok, now for the explanations.
A HEAT (hollow charge) round, is essentially a cylinder of HE, with the front of the explosive shaped conically inward. In this cavity is a conical metal liner, fitted very tightly. At the end is the standoff fuse (explained later). The HE is detonated in the rear of the explosive, creating a high-pressure shockwave that heads to the front of the round reaching the thin tip of the liner first at speeds of about 8000 m/s. As the shockwave passes over the liner, it forces it to collapse, starting at the narrow tip. The walls of the liner slam against each other, creating pressures so far above the yeild strenght of the liner material that the metal flows in a fluid fashion, even though the temperature is below the melting point of the material. So now a long jet of liner shoots forward through the open end of the cone. This jet is moving so quickly (around 10000 m/s) that if forces the armor to flow to the sides of the stream, opening a long narrow crater in the path of the jet. So it doesnt actually "burn" a hole in the armor, but actually forces it aside.
The tips of these jets erode as they penetrate deeper, meaning the get shorter as the pass through armor, so the length of the jet determines how far it can penetrate. Now this is where the standoff fuse comes into play. This is also the trickiest part. The tip of this jet moves thousands of meters a second faster than its base, so the jet stretches as it moves forward, and will eventually break up into a series of particles. The deepest penetration occurs when the jet has time and space to stretch out as long as possible withouth breaking apart. So the standoff fuse sets the round off at a distance where maximum penetration can be achieved (most efficient jet). The standoff is measured in cone diameters (CD). The optimum Ci is around 4 to 7. CD can be determined by dividing standoff by diameter, so an 80mm HEAT shell has a standoff of 160mm means that (160/80 = 2) it has a CD of 2. Realizing this means realizing that its nearly impossible to build an optimal standoff into large warheads, so sometimes small liners can outperform large liners because of the ability to have a better standoff.
Now heres where the shape of the liner comes into play. The Thinner/longer the stream (check picture three) the greater the penetration, but the worse the behind-armor effects, where as the Broader/shorter the stream the worse the penetration but the greater the behind-armor effects.
There are other factors as well, like adding certain materials to the explosive to shape the wave for better collapsing of the liner, as well as quality of manufacture of the liner and its alloy and thickness.
Well, thats basically everything you would ever want to know about Shaped charges (Hollow charge, HEAT round, whatever). This should also clear up some misconceptions about possible uses for AT weapons (refering back to the first paragraph)."
PART 2
"....8. APFSDS (Armor Piercing Fin Stabalized Discarding Sabot)
APFSDS - Ah, now this round. This round is basically a large solid dart (kinda like a flachette, though called a penetrator) that is enclosed in a sabot. A modern penetrator is about 60 to 80 cm long and about 2 to 2.5 cm wide. This round relies solely on kinetic energy. Its pointed tip pushes armor aside as it penetrates the armor, but at the same time its constantly being eroded and slowing down. So heres the tricky part to APFSDS rounds. The longer the penetrator, the greater the amount of time it takes to erode it, thus the more armor it can penetrate. But increases length also increases weight, which decrease velocity. So to counter-act this, the penetrator is made thinner, which decreases the weight. This mutual tradeoff is described by its I/d ratio, which is the length of the rod divided by its diameter. As the I/d ratio grows, so does the penetration. But the longer and thinner the penetrator gets, the weaker it becomes, which means that it is more likely to bend or break (even when accelerating in the barrel). Longer and sturdier Sabot petals can be used to counter-act this, but again, this adds more weight, decreasing velocity. Ways to counter-act these rounds by adding lateral force have been designed, from sloped armor to spaced armor to heavy reactive armor. So APFSDS penetrators are carefully made to bend slightly without breaking to protect against these lateral forces.
Now some plus sides of U.S. APFSDS rounds compared to other rounds.
U.S. penetrators are made of Depleted Uranium (DU), which is inherently more dense than tungsten. Now yall dont need to know about the enrichment process of Uranium, which is how you get DU, nore the percentages of the isotopes of uranium
(youll never get it from me ). DU is extremely inexpensive for the U.S. to manufacture, have so much left over from the nuclear industry. Small fragments of DU (that chip off when penetrating materials) are pyrophoric, meaning that when exposed to air, they spontanously comubust, adding an incendiary effect to the round. Another thing is when DU is alloyed with titanium (yall dont need to know the percentages of this either ) it reacts with pressure by adaibatic shear. This means under pressure, very narrow bands of weakness shear off the penetrator, which means there is always a sharp chisel like point on the end of the penetrator as it penetrates. This also means it takes less force, as all the force is always on the point ahead. This is very unlike tungsten, which mushrooms as it pentrates, meaning the amount of force to pentrate increases as the round penetrates deeper into the armor. ......."Ok its a long read, but heres the jist of my points (and some others).
- The current U.S. APFSDS round goes 1680 m/s, while the average WW2 round varied from 685 to 1018 m/sec for the normal AP rounds.
- Modern APFSDS rounds dont "burn" through armor by superheating, they actually push the armor aside. I would assume that the reason for the superheated round or armor is from all the friction and heat released from the round penetrating the armor. I would also go on to assume that this is how WW2 round generally penetrated armor as well, meaning that they pushed the armor aside and all superheated effects were caused by the friction and heat released. Granted the superheating effects could help in penetration (im not sure), I still think that the basics of penetration is not "burning" a hole in the armor.
This is also how I believe how sloped armor defeats AP rounds. Not that the force is dissapated over a large enough area that the armor is "superheated" that the force is dissapated over a large enough area that the round doesnt create a large enough "crater" in the armor before its momentum is shifted (thus the round richochetes). Take a look at Tigers were rounds were defeated or richocheted, there are still pretty good dings in the armor where you can see that the round hit. If penetration was based on superheating, I doubt you would see this.
Also Jack, DU rounds arnt the only round that "superheats", what your talking about is explained in my repost called pyrophoric effects. This does only happen with DU, but it only adds an incendiary effect to penetration. "Superheating" would be like when molten metal sprays inside a tank, the metal is molten because of the friction and heat released, not the pyrophoric effects. So tungsten rounds can "superheat" as well as others, though I dont believe superheating is the major factor in penetration. I mean take a look at how a HEAT round works, the conical liner isnt superheated, its actually below melting point while it penetrates, because it pushes the armor aside. But while its doing this, theres major friction and heat being released, so..... molten spall.
As for the T/d thing, I dont know much about it really. It sounds logical, if you look at some knocked out tanks, some of them look like the round just "punched' a hole in the armor. so......
I'm might not hit every point, but my reposts should have cleared up some stuff without me explaining.
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Santini said:
Ive heard of the plug thing, but im not quite sure what they mean exactly, but if its like a HESH round, you mean that it creats internal armor flaking causing crew casualties, right?
or are you talking about something like partial penetrations?
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kabex said:Most informative thread I've read in a while.
Indeed. A lot of quality reading here.
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Jack said:Well speaking of ready racks, that is another thing against the T-34. Only 9 rounds were carried in easy access in the T-34 turret, the rest were in bins at the bottom of the turret basket.
So after the fist 9 shots, fire rate dropped dramatically. Imagine trying to grab a fresh shell by having to pull up the rubber floor matting, open the bin, get piping hot spent casings out of your way, and all during this time you are jostling around, hot, and smoke is in your eyes
yes! as with so many of the panzers' advatages over soviet armor that are not reflected in the game, this would be great! be nice to see the germans get something for their better turret-interior design, and 5-man crews.
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Baddy said:
don't know man, most people here seem to just want a high level of historical accurracy, that's all. most of the things mentioned, if not all, are well supported by historical accounts and technical data.
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Yep, it's like we want overmatch and T34 turret trap implemented, everyone whines that we want to overpower the Tiger, or whatever.Santini said:
What?
Okay, you whine when we want to make something realistic, and you complain when we whine about Soviets having super ultra uber armor loadouts?
Choose something:
Uber load outs for everyone, super overpowered tanks
or
Realistic, authentic, technical representation of WW2 Eastern front armored combat and orders of battle.
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Why does everybody wants to 'Upgrade' the Tiger? Just put it into an early war situation up against T-34/76.
Everybody goes like: "The Tiger should kick ass ffs! I hear so much great things about it and I can't own the soviet team!"
Everybody goes like: "The Tiger should kick ass ffs! I hear so much great things about it and I can't own the soviet team!"
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Most of the "hardcore" Tiger fans are not 11 year old kids with a total lack of WWII knowledge, you know?Diamond said:
The people advocating for an authentic Tiger(myself included) know what they're talking about and provide hard evidence for their claims/requests.
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Yes, what Kabex said. This is not about fanboyism, it is about people who have a read a lot on the subject and want things to be portrayed realistically.
I would rather have more brutally realistic armor models than overpowered ones that are present in unrealistic numbers.
I would rather have more brutally realistic armor models than overpowered ones that are present in unrealistic numbers.
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