More German and Russian anti tank weapons

[Onion]

Today I watched the German film Stalingrad. I saw the germans using a type of magnetic charge that they attached to tanks. When i researched this further I found that it would be a nice way to replace satchel charges.

It was a shaped charge weapon, similiar to the panzerfaust. I think it even looks like a panzerfaust warhead. Pictured is the 3.5 kilo version, I think other weights were made as well.

The site I looked at said it could penetrate fifteen centimeters of armor. I think this would be a great addition to redorchestra, but it probably would be rather hard to implement, as the thing actually has to stick onto the tank and stay there even if it moves.
But if this is implemented, it might make satchels be able to be set ontop of tanks, so we could get rid of the unrealistic killing of the tanks that they do now. Where if you place it next to the tank, even pretty far away it kills it.

I found a good russian weapon to counter this as well the RPG-43 anti tank grenade. This was basically a grenade with a large shaped charge attached to it. It has a wooden handle similiar to the german grenade. The site i got my information from said that it could penetrate 75mm of armor. You would throw it in a high arc so it would come down on top of an enemy tank.

Source:www.Inert-Ord.net

 

[Avenger]

Signed.

 

[Reise]

This would come in handy on maps like Konigsplatz when the Russian's tanks are practically rolling right over you.

 

[Rameusb5]

Both are interesting weapons and have been discussed in other threads.

The Germans also had a shaped-charge hand grenade capable of penetrating about 70mm of armor. The German version had 4 canvas "vains" that opened like the fletching of an arrow (though obviously much larger) to stabilize it in flight, while the Russian grenade trailed a large strip of canvas (IIRC) to keep the business end pointing forward in flight.

In any case, these weapons would have terribly short ranges.

 

[TheBlownUpGuy]

I know

I know

Can't they bring in both the Panzerzreck and the bazooka in the game.
I gues that the russians used the bazooka as well as that AT gun.
What about the German AT soldier can choose between 3 panzerfausts or 1 Panzerzreck whith 4 granades and the Russian can choose between the AT gun or a bazooka. The AT gun does lesser DMG but got more ammo

 

[Lizardhands]

I'm happy with more weapons as long as it's balanced. Those both sound like cool additions.

 

[TheBlownUpGuy]

Thanks

Thanks

Thank you

 

[Heldentod]

Can't they bring in both the Panzerzreck and the bazooka in the game.
I gues that the russians used the bazooka as well as that AT gun.
What about the German AT soldier can choose between 3 panzerfausts or 1 Panzerzreck whith 4 granades and the Russian can choose between the AT gun or a bazooka. The AT gun does lesser DMG but got more ammo

bazooka was lend lease
too few were send and the russians did not like them (go figure)

look at old pictures of germans carrying Panzerf

 

[Lizardhands]

Thank you

Sorry if this sounds rude, but I was actually referring to Onion's post. :[

I should have been more specific.

 

[Rameusb5]

IMHO, here's how the "Pak soldat's" loadout should look in the game:

Early war maps: German ATR + 2 "Bundle" Grenades + Pistol

Mid to Late war:
Panzershrek with 1 or 2 rockets + Pistol or
2 Magnetic Mines + 2 HEAT Hand Grenades + SMG


Panzerfausts (and satchel charges) should only be available at ammo depots. (Panzerfauts only during mid-late war maps). Both should be limited to a maximum of ONE carried at a time. Satchel charges should be audited to realistic damage levels.

 

[Crim]

Panzerschrecks probably shouldn't be implemented. Just because they're... really big.

I've already made a post in one of the OTHER anti-tank weapons threads, so I'm not going to say the exact same thing here. Regardless, panzerschrecks really wouldn't work for what is displayed in this game. Maybe on Rakowice, they'd work for the first five minutes of the map before the Soviets take the perimeter, but other than that? No.

 

[Rameusb5]

Panzerschrecks probably shouldn't be implemented. Just because they're... really big.

I've already made a post in one of the OTHER anti-tank weapons threads, so I'm not going to say the exact same thing here. Regardless, panzerschrecks really wouldn't work for what is displayed in this game. Maybe on Rakowice, they'd work for the first five minutes of the map before the Soviets take the perimeter, but other than that? No.

Crim,
I looked around and didn't see your post. I'd like to know why you don't think they should be modelled. Because they're "big" doesn't seem like a valid arguement. Could you please elaborate?

Personally, I feel that it was common enough that it should be found in the game. Assuming they impliment it correctly, so that teams would be needed to crew it (one gunner and one loader), I really don't see the problem with it. It had decent range, and with enough cover, I think one could do pretty well with it in RO.

 

[Crim]

http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134484&postcount=55

That's the post I was talking about.

It all has to do with how the panzerschreck was deployed. They were a defensive weapon; Germans used them in set defenses, at relatively-static points. They weren't tank hunters, as they were much too big and cumbersome for that. Germans would triangulate a killzone, three teams of panzerschrecks going after a tank at three different angles. They would move after each shot, as the rather impressive smoke and such would reveal their position.

The more I think about it, the more I think a panzerschreck in RO would be pretty cool. But you'd have to design maps with it in mind. At the moment, there are no custom or orginial maps where a panzerschreck would be desired. Until there are maps with Germans on the defensive, preferably with set defenses and mines, a panzerschreck would be 'unrealistic'. That is to say, I'm sure they were used in more manners than in the tactic I described, but that would be a weapon of desperation. Panzerfausts went to the fore in terms of anti-tank ability.

Panzerschrecks would be nice to see, but there are much more important things to implement first.

 

[Onion]

I think that we should completely change the pak soldat class. We need a system that lets a mapper set the chance riflemen get for spawning with one panzerfaust. Then we could have the Paksoldat class be used for more advanced AT weapons, like the magnetic mines, bundled charges, and the panzerschreck.

 

[BobCobb]

No, if we start handing every other rifleman a panzerfaust tanks will be utterly worthless. The AT class should have specific AT weapons, and the panzerfausts should be left up to the mappers.

 

[Mini_Booyah]

sorry i dunno,,, didnt the ruskies have access to PIAT things?

 

[Onion]

PIAT was british Anti tank, umm thing. I dont know if russians ever got them, but I dont think they did.

 

[Rameusb5]

http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134484&postcount=55

That's the post I was talking about.

It all has to do with how the panzerschreck was deployed. They were a defensive weapon; Germans used them in set defenses, at relatively-static points. They weren't tank hunters, as they were much too big and cumbersome for that. Germans would triangulate a killzone, three teams of panzerschrecks going after a tank at three different angles. They would move after each shot, as the rather impressive smoke and such would reveal their position.

The more I think about it, the more I think a panzerschreck in RO would be pretty cool. But you'd have to design maps with it in mind. At the moment, there are no custom or orginial maps where a panzerschreck would be desired. Until there are maps with Germans on the defensive, preferably with set defenses and mines, a panzerschreck would be 'unrealistic'. That is to say, I'm sure they were used in more manners than in the tactic I described, but that would be a weapon of desperation. Panzerfausts went to the fore in terms of anti-tank ability.

Panzerschrecks would be nice to see, but there are much more important things to implement first.

Actually, pretty much EVERY infantry AT weapon was defensive. The AT rifles and Bazookas and Panzerfausts were ALL meant to be used from concealed or entrenched positions. Let's face it, infantry going on the offensive against Armor is problematic at best.

Off the top of my head, both Racowice (sp) and Konigsplats would benefit from these weapons. Arad would benefit since infantry are often left to defend the south village. Even at Ogledow, you could move your infantry up to hold the ground you captured with your tanks. Really the only map where the weapon would be for all intents and purposes worthless is Barishaka, since it is so big and there isn't much cover.

IMHO, it's much more historically accurate for the German AT trooper to be given a Panzershrek, since Fausts were distributed pretty much the same way that grenades were: To anyone who could hold one.

I think fausts should be ONLY found at GERMAN depots. If the Russians manage to get to the depot, then they can take the fausts that are there. The fausts should NOT take time to respawn, but each soldier should only be able to carry just one.

 

[TheBlownUpGuy]

Well

Well

You can also use the "If" thinking. Like if the russians hade thousands of end lease Bazokas at their disposial.
And i think it was stupid by the russians to throw the bazokas in the trashcan
And you can have the Panzershrecks in every place there is Tanks enought( and bazokas, they where also quite big). And if there are no thanks you can shoot at, then blow the brains out of some hotshot enemy infantery insead

 

[ZBrisk]

It isn't just about tanks. AT weapons were also effective against bunkers, strongholds, etc. Though I doubt there'll be a very destructible environment in RO...

But still, they worked against infantry. I think the panzerfaust should have its damage radius a bit larger so it actually kills somone it lands next to, instead of having to directly hit them every time (the explosive could go through tank armor, after all).

It is true that panzerschreks are bulky, though. I can recall several instances in CoD:UO when I spotted an enemy because his panzerschrek was sticking through a wall.