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May I have Your Attention Please!

stebbs said:
God would not exist without faith. The entire image of what god is is determined through faith, so if we realize god as an actual physical being then the idea of what we think of as god would also change, just as our view of the earth and stars changed with discoveries.
And once again I just plain disagree. In Biblical times God was NOT an image of faith, he WAS a physical (somewhat) being ever-present in the Jewish society. There was no faith required back then (according to the Bible). And there is also Jesus, the physical representation of God.

I just don't follow your "I only exist as long as you don't know for sure that I'm here" line of thought, but I can tell you it does not apply to Abrahamic religion.

Edit:
I'm starting to think that the idea of "faith" was made up so that the religious could flatly refuse to listen to logical arguments...

And I continue to wonder why people try to apply logical arguments to the illogical.
 
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Lionel-RIchie said:
But please, show me science that shrinks and refutes a religion OTHER than the religions I mentioned that were explanation religions (Lightning is thrown by Thor/Zeus, etc).

I seem to remember cases where the christian god threw lightning here and there aswell (when jesus died, for example) but besides that, here are some examples of various adjustments christians have made:

Genesis. Disproved. You will ofcourse deny this, and explain how its all a metaphor for evolution, how it all fits into gods plan etc, this is how every religion deals with being disproven, by simply changing their religion.

Were not the center of the universe like the overall impression you get from reading the bible, which is why the church burned people for saying otherwise

You will ofcourse reply with "it doesnt actually say anywhere in the bible that the world is flat, or that the sun revolves around the earth".. That may be true, but then why did they think it matched so badly it was worth killing for back in copernicus' days? Because it undermined the idea we were all created in gods image etc. Later the christians all adjusted, and sprinkled a little more "faith" in there. "have faith!"

Morale issues: The bible says we should murder gay people, and brides who arent virgins. Again youll ofcourse reply by explaining the wish-washyness of the bible, how Its in the old testament so it doesnt really count,(10 commandments then?) or how it was only meant at certain times and that it really means something else etc.I call BS on that, if you really believe the bible is prophets speaking the word of god, then there is no room for misunderstandings and interpretations to your own liking.

This is the book youre supposed to live by if you are a christian, so either live by it, or reject it.
 
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BicycleRepairMan said:
I seem to remember cases where the christian god threw lightning here and there aswell (when jesus died, for example) but besides that, here are some examples of various adjustments christians have made:

First of all it was an earthquake, second it is not meant as an explanation of a phenomena.

Genesis. Disproved. You will ofcourse deny this, and explain how its all a metaphor for evolution, how it all fits into gods plan etc, this is how every religion deals with being disproven, by simply changing their religion.

Of course I will deny this, but it seems ridiculous that you say "You cannot argue it like this, because I say so" and believe that an ancient text can only be interpereted literally. Do I think Genesis is a metaphor for evolution? Not yet. I think it may be possible, but we haven't seen proof of MACROevolution yet, so there's no conflict here. Whether God created the earth in 7 days or 4 million it doesn't change the religion. Genesis. Not disproved.

Were not the center of the universe like the overall impression you get from reading the bible, which is why the church burned people for saying otherwise

You will ofcourse reply with "it doesnt actually say anywhere in the bible that the world is flat, or that the sun revolves around the earth".. That may be true, but then why did they think it matched so badly it was worth killing for back in copernicus' days? Because it undermined the idea we were all created in gods image etc. Later the christians all adjusted, and sprinkled a little more "faith" in there. "have faith!"

Ok...as we all know the Catholic Church in that period of time was a little loopy, but they were NOT protecting church values, they were protecting the ancient philosopher/scientist ways. It didn't undermine the idea that we were all created in God's image, wow. You know what it DID do? It undermined humanity's extreme self-centereness and arrogance! This wasn't a question of religion, but of HUMANITY! The HUMANS in the Catholic church (weren't the most religious people, the ones in powers, they acted more like Rock Stars) didn't want to NOT be the center of the universe! They didn't want their antiquity shattered (Humanity always has that appeal to antiquity, just look at the way the Romans viewed the Chaldeans, etc) that was put forth by the ancient philosphers who came up with things like the celestial sphere!

It's not about religion here.

Morale issues: The bible says we should murder gay people, and brides who arent virgins. Again youll ofcourse reply by explaining the wish-washyness of the bible, how Its in the old testament so it doesnt really count,(10 commandments then?) or how it was only meant at certain times and that it really means something else etc.I call BS on that, if you really believe the bible is prophets speaking the word of god, then there is no room for misunderstandings and interpretations to your own liking.

This is the book youre supposed to live by if you are a christian, so either live by it, or reject it.

It's not that the Old Testament "doesn't count," but that Jesus began teaching of forgiveness and love. Take, for example, the story of the adultress. Some Jewish mean found a woman committing adultry and dragged her out onto the street to stone her to death, as was the custom. Jesus steps up and says "Let him without sin cast the first stone" and they all walk off. Jesus taught tolerance, he hung out with whores, thieves, tax collectors, and all of the community's filth that no one else would hang out with. His message wasn't "kill gay people." The Bible went from a religion of exclusiveness (only to pure Jews who follow the Torah) to everyone who wants it.

See, I didn't say what you thought I would. I didn't claim wishy-washy'ness in translation, happy?
 
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Lionel-RIchie said:
And once again I just plain disagree. In Biblical times God was NOT an image of faith, he WAS a physical (somewhat) being ever-present in the Jewish society. There was no faith required back then (according to the Bible). And there is also Jesus, the physical representation of God.

BUt he was considered the physical representation of god because PEOPLE BELIEVED HIM to be so. If faith wasn't required and god was everywhere, why were there different religions even back then? Also, how can god be SOMEWHAT of a physical being who is also ever-present, by using magic? Do you see the lack of logic of these ideas and why they could ONLY be accepted through faith?

Lionel-RIchie said:
I just don't follow your "I only exist as long as you don't know for sure that I'm here" line of thought, but I can tell you it does not apply to Abrahamic religion.

It appears that my first points just went over your head, because you clearly don't understand. It's not "I only exist as long as you don't know for sure that I'm here". It's, "I only exist because you believe that I do" There is a BIG difference between these ideas.

If you read up on more philosophy you would understand what I am saying, I'm done trying to put in simpler terms.

Lionel-RIchie said:
And I continue to wonder why people try to apply logical arguments to the illogical.

I'm not sure which is more illogical at this point, faith, or having a philisophical discussion with the faithful.
:rolleyes:

I'm done trying to discuss the philosophical prespective of faith with you. You obviously can't see past what is written in the bible and will be first in line when jesus comes to judge us all, have fun with that.
 
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1.) I'm 24

2.) I follow an odd, personal form of Christiananity

3.) I "found God" by repeatidly getting shot at by people trying to kill me and the recovery from wounds when they almost succeeded. "There's no atheists in foxholes" isn't saying something bad about atheism, it's saying there's something bad about foxholes.

4.) Yes, I try to follow the principles as best as I can.

5.) Yes, I've read the Bible and certain chapters many times. I've also read the Koran and many of the other Eastern religion texts (The Upanishads, Cunfucius teachings, etc.)

6.) Yes, I do occasionally attend sessions of worship.

7.) I don't attend an established church often in a year. Usually around 3-5 times.

8.) Mostly for holiday's or when I'm in the mood. I believe there are other ways to worship God than going to a church and listening to a preacher. Basically, I feel God just wants to be recognized, given the credit he deserves, and remembered.

9.) Yes, I pray very often.

10.) Usually I ask for the safety of my friends and family. If I see or hear of a particular person suffering, I'll ask for a blessing for him/her. If something in my life is really stressing me out I'll ask for guidance and help.

11.)Not at all
a.) Not at all

12.) Yes, I am open. I don't see a need to pee in other people's pepsi. If it makes them happy and doesn't hurt anyone else, I'm for it. My ideas and beliefs aren't affected, threatened, or shaped by other people's.

13.) I believe in creationism and evolution. Genesis says that God created the world in 7 days, but does anyone know how long a day is to God? Do you think He tells time by how long it takes our Earth to spin? I don't because as far as I know, Earth isn't His "home". A day to Him could be a million years to us. Also, there's nothing in the Bible about how God created the Earth. I believe it's completely possible He did it with "A Big Bang".

Evolution, in my eyes, is very present and can be proven to exist. I believe it is a tool God uses to help shape and mold the creatures He initially created. He could have created the mechanisms for the process to work.

Basically, I think that science and religion aren't separate issues at all. With common sense and good reasoning it is easy to show that the two can over-lap.

14.) Yes, I believe religion is necessary. For whatever reason, people need a solid base to explain the world. Whether it is the idea that God created and controls everything or the opposite, these beliefs are fundamental to a stable well-being. Even atheism is a belief system that people can find a solid base from (it's a religion in my opinion).
 
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You obviously can't see past what is written in the bible and will be first in line when jesus comes to judge us all, have fun with that.
It appears that a philosopher with little knowledge of the Bible is trying to make a point to a Christian with little knowledge of philosophy.....and visa versa....there's the rub :D
A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing....:)

Its been banter like this the whole thread.

Its been a real eye opener for me, however. I was unaware of the massive amount of mis-conceptions that abound. :eek:
 
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Lionel-RIchie said:
First of all it was an earthquake, second it is not meant as an explanation of a phenomena.

Fair enough, but didnt the curtains at that temple get torn by lightning?
Lionel-RIchie said:
Of course I will deny this, but it seems ridiculous that you say "You cannot argue it like this, because I say so" and believe that an ancient text can only be interpereted literally. Do I think Genesis is a metaphor for evolution? Not yet. I think it may be possible, but we haven't seen proof of MACROevolution yet, so there's no conflict here. Whether God created the earth in 7 days or 4 million it doesn't change the religion. Genesis. Not disproved.

Oh, its disproved, its just not "I'll never give up my faith cause it pisses god off-disproved" . The bible says SEVEN DAYS. disproved. the bible says "adam and eve" disproved, we're monkeys. It features an absurd explanation of how the woman is cursed to bleed . Ask your doctor., the list goes on with examples of un-educated nonsense noone would ever believe if I made it up today. But becuase its holy, and the bible says so, you need to adjust the facts and make up a new interpretation.

The question is, what about the future, consider your current interpretation of the bible, will it need more adjustments as science progresses?

Lionel-RIchie said:
It's not that the Old Testament "doesn't count," but that Jesus began teaching of forgiveness and love.

So Jesus started forgiving, I guess that means god changed his mind. another proof he's not almighty then. Also, what youre saying is that adultry and being gay is still getting you to hell, its just that we're not supposed to do the stoning ourselves? Or is it only we heathens who are going to hell, since the people with faith will be forgiven?

I get so confused with all these self-contradictions from the almighty himself, that I think that even if you proved tomorrow for me that god existed, I'd just give him the finger for pulling all this crap on us :)
 
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BicycleRepairMan said:
Fair enough, but didnt the curtains at that temple get torn by lightning?
No, and how would a lightning bolt go inside the temple? o_O

50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. 51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.


It just says the veil was torn asunder, doesn't say how, checked KJV too.



Oh, its disproved, its just not "I'll never give up my faith cause it pisses god off-disproved" . The bible says SEVEN DAYS. disproved. the bible says "adam and eve" disproved, we're monkeys. It features an absurd explanation of how the woman is cursed to bleed . Ask your doctor., the list goes on with examples of un-educated nonsense noone would ever believe if I made it up today. But becuase its holy, and the bible says so, you need to adjust the facts and make up a new interpretation.

The question is, what about the future, consider your current interpretation of the bible, will it need more adjustments as science progresses?
Once again, what is SEVEN DAYS? Read what I said a few posts back. Heck, even on different planets the days differ. Why would God's time follow the time of the third planet from the sun? "On the first day" was even before there was a thing called light to distinguish "earth days" so think about that : /. And NO, we are NOT monkeys. There is NO PROOF of macroevolution. ONLY THEORIES. Microevolution is true, macroevolution is yet to be proved. I also don't see what's so absurd about the "curse of Eve." It didn't say "God made up a magical device in the woman that caused her to bleed every month that cannot be explained by science, wooo-oooo tremble!"


So Jesus started forgiving, I guess that means god changed his mind. another proof he's not almighty then. Also, what youre saying is that adultry and being gay is still getting you to hell, its just that we're not supposed to do the stoning ourselves? Or is it only we heathens who are going to hell, since the people with faith will be forgiven?

I get so confused with all these self-contradictions from the almighty himself, that I think that even if you proved tomorrow for me that god existed, I'd just give him the finger for pulling all this crap on us :)
God didn't change his mind. I'm going to have to ask you to stop making outrageous and ridiculous assumptions when you clearly have never read the Bible yourself. You're sounding like a Holiday Inn Express commercial. "No I'm not a surgeon, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night."

God had PLANNED on what he was doing with Jesus since the beginning. Hence all the prophecies across the OT that matched Jesus exactly. Also hence what Jesus himself said "In the BEGINNING was the LOGOS and the LOGOS was with God."

It's not saying what you're saying about the gays or adulteresses. It is saying that A) we cannot judge people, that is God's job and B) Because you sin it doesn't mean you have to be condemned for it, you can be forgiven.

But hey, I'm starting to remember how useless religion debates are on internet forums. Both sides aren't going to budge.
 
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Floyd said:
It appears that a philosopher with little knowledge of the Bible is trying to make a point to a Christian with little knowledge of philosophy.....and visa versa....there's the rub :D

Its been banter like this the whole thread.

Well, more than a little, but fair enough. I'm kinda surprised this thread hasn't erupted in flames from all the repressed anger floating around, lol
 
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stebbs said:
BUt he was considered the physical representation of god because PEOPLE BELIEVED HIM to be so. If faith wasn't required and god was everywhere, why were there different religions even back then? Also, how can god be SOMEWHAT of a physical being who is also ever-present, by using magic? Do you see the lack of logic of these ideas and why they could ONLY be accepted through faith?

If you read up on Jewish religion you would know that Judaism wasn't a strictly monotheistic belief and that God YHVH was a very national and local god. The Jews believed there were other gods out there, but they only followed their own, and theirs would trounce the others (which they would, a lot of the time). And by "somewhat" of a physical being, I mean that he would be physically apparent, and not just an idea in one's head.


It appears that my first points just went over your head, because you clearly don't understand. It's not "I only exist as long as you don't know for sure that I'm here". It's, "I only exist because you believe that I do" There is a BIG difference between these ideas.

If you read up on more philosophy you would understand what I am saying, I'm done trying to put in simpler terms.

Ok, so your point is that if we don't believe in God, he will poof, right? Then why didn't he in the Bible? How many times had the Jews forsaken God and gone their own ways, believed what they did was of their own doing, etc, but then eventually come back to God? What about when NOBODY on Earth believed in God, but then he talked to one person (Noah) and destroyed life on Earth? I see what you're saying about if everyone stops believing in a god, he dies, but that's only if that god is merely an idea.
 
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All right! We're comparing relatively new intentionally fiction books with ancient religious texts! Woo!

Edit: I realize and agree with you that just because something is written doesn't mean that it is true. However, we Christians believe that it is true. Is there something so wrong with that?

I'd also like to point out to you the same point about HISTORY. History is written by the winners, but then, don't people often take what we learn in school to be 100% true? Especially in extremely biased texts?

And god can
 
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Lionel-RIchie said:
Once again, what is SEVEN DAYS? Read what I said a few posts back. Heck, even on different planets the days differ. Why would God's time follow the time of the third planet from the sun?

Well, it probably wouldnt, but the bible, and the god, was invented by people who happened to live on that particular planet, and who thought that little speck of rock was the center of the universe, and that seven days meant seven days.

This is once again bible-stuff you choose to interpret very differently now that we know better, when the bible was written, and in the hundreds of following years, seven days meant seven days. period. Thats exactly my point. Because we now know better, you adjust your interpretation of the bible accordingly.


Lionel-RIchie said:
God didn't change his mind. I'm going to have to ask you to stop making outrageous and ridiculous assumptions when you clearly have never read the Bible yourself. You're sounding like a Holiday Inn Express commercial. "No I'm not a surgeon, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night."

God had PLANNED on what he was doing with Jesus since the beginning. Hence all the prophecies across the OT that matched Jesus exactly. Also hence what Jesus himself said "In the BEGINNING was the LOGOS and the LOGOS was with God."

Once again, blind faith showing itself, Once you have accepted the bible as the "one and only truth" or whatever there is no point in even arguing the matter, but first god says(OT) "kill these and these people" then (NT) he says "you cant judge anyone for anything, but still, no matter how many people you murder or how evil you are, as long as you believe my little jesus story, It'll be ok". I honestly dont know which of these testaments are the worst, but it certainly doesnt seem very well planned, unless the intention is to create chaos and confusion.

Lionel-RIchie said:
It's not saying what you're saying about the gays or adulteresses.
Yes it does, in the old testament.
Lionel-RIchie said:
It is saying that A) we cannot judge people, that is God's job and B) Because you sin it doesn't mean you have to be condemned for it, you can be forgiven.

So thats the new testament, how about those unfortunate souls they stoned to death on gods orders before the new one? guess its all part of the plan...sigh...
 
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BicycleRepairMan said:
Once again, blind faith showing itself, Once you have accepted the bible as the "one and only truth" or whatever there is no point in even arguing the matter, but first god says(OT) "kill these and these people" then (NT) he says "you cant judge anyone for anything, but still, no matter how many people you murder or how evil you are, as long as you believe my little jesus story, It'll be ok". I honestly dont know which of these testaments are the worst, but it certainly doesnt seem very well planned, unless the intention is to create chaos and confusion.

It was not so much a thing of chaos and confusion as one of a messianic salvation, but hey, I'm sure you'll disagree with me no matter what I say, so I'm just gonna leave this pointless thread and go play video games. I believe what I believe, you believe what you do. I don't think there's anything wrong with science, in fact, I love all the advancements we're making (except some of the dangerous ones...) so please stop saying that you are either a person of reason and science or religion and denial of the roundness of the Earth.
 
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Lionel-RIchie said:
And once again, like much of what I have said and what is said in this thread, this is your opinion. God is not something you can prove or disprove.

And neither is santa claus. or the man in the moon, or gandalf. we can try to use well-constructed, logical arguments against it, that in every other matter would shatter the opinion totally, but as long as you have the blind faith in any of the above, you can just reply with silly answers, like so:

Q:But people have been on the north pole, no santa..
A:You moron, santa's workshop is under the sea, and invisible

Q:people have been on the moon, No man could live there.
A:thats true, but have they been IN the moon?

Q:Tolkien invented gandalf
A:thats just what gandalf wants you to think, hes a wizard, remember?
 
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BicycleRepairMan said:
And neither is santa claus. or the man in the moon, or gandalf. we can try to use well-constructed, logical arguments against it, that in every other matter would shatter the opinion totally, but as long as you have the blind faith in any of the above, you can just reply with silly answers, like so:

Q:But people have been on the north pole, no santa..
A:You moron, santa's workshop is under the sea, and invisible

Q:people have been on the moon, No man could live there.
A:thats true, but have they been IN the moon?

Q:Tolkien invented gandalf
A:thats just what gandalf wants you to think, hes a wizard, remember?
Or or...

Q) Doesn't the universe seem to have an end, and thus must have had a beginning, like the Big Bang, which matches up with Genesis?

A) Omgz no wai! The universe is eternal and expands in and out on itself causing many Big Bangs.

Q) But doesn't that contradict the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

A) No wai, you don't know, the universe could be part of a META universe that lets it be eternal!

And I totally pulled that off of the "Why be an athiest" link earlier in the thread.

Edit: You know, the more I think about it, the funnier it is. Science has been pulling the exact same crap you're claiming right now.

Science: Hey, the earth is flat.

People: Really? How sure are you?

Science: So sure.

(Later)

Science: Ok, it's not flat, sorry about that.

People: But you said it was!

Science: It's round now, but we're at the center of a universe here.

People: ...really?

Science So sure.

And the rest is History.
 
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Lionel-RIchie said:
so please stop saying that you are either a person of reason and science or religion and denial of the roundness of the Earth.

Never said that, I said (or atleast meant) you should believe the bible as it is(seven days and all), or reject the idea that its the complete and final truth. And I think logic and reasoning should be used to decide.
 
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