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New Weapons Discussion (Merged)

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#221
Would like to add my two cents.

Although I own one myself, I do not claim to be an expert on them. Some more info can be found at:

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/4064/sitemap.html

and

http://www.gunsworld.com/nagant/nagant_us.html

I just want to say two things on the subject.

1)The Nagants sold now are re-arsenaled so the WWII issued ones do not look like the re-arsenaled ones I have been told. Just food for thought.

2)I have been told by people in some Nagant forums that you can shoot cheaper 32 S&W Long in these ($15 per box of 20 roughly). I do so myself and do not have any issues with it that way. I am not recommending that anyone do this for liability reasons though, just saying that I do it.
 
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#223
As GonzoX pointed out, the dark black bluing on the postwar rearsenaled guns is very different from the traditional blue used before the war. Here's what the original finish looks like -- granted, this one is a little worn, but considering it was made in 1932 I imagine it was showing some wear by 1945.

32nag1.jpg


32nag2.jpg


32nag4.jpg
 
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#224
Isaak Johnson said:
Thank you GonzoX, those sites are very helpful, thanks for linking them.

Also it is nice to know that the Nagant Revolvers you can see in gun shows today are re-arsenaled, if that means Nagant Revolvers that were in that period were different then more research will have to be done to find out.
Click to expand...

In the case of the Nagant, the only real difference is the finish on it. Re-arsenaled guns were re-blued to a dark black finish. Not sure about WWII issue ones but pictures indicate a lighter finish.

I have a re-arsenaled SVT as well and they blued the bolt on when re-arsenaled while original WWII issued rifles have the bolt in the white (not blued) for example.

This is why some of the weapons in RO are not as authentic as they could be because the 3d modellers used re-arsenaled examples for their models. The K98k in the game is another example of this. Won't bore you with the details though as I tend to rant. :rolleyes:
 
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#225
That is okay, details are what we need sometimes.

Those pictures are excelent Bat Guano, I really appreciate that you posted them for us to see.

Ok, that is good that only the finish is different on re-arsenaled Nagant's, but I would be okay even if they used the new bluing in RO.

Now that we seem to have everything about how it looks sorted out let discuss how it would have to work in the game and then possibly see if we can get enough positive feedback that the Dev's may want to consider adding it either in this patch comming up or the next patch.
 
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#226
Could you provide more info on how reloading of the weapon worked? From those images it is difficult to tell if the cylinder poped out and if that was the right or left side. There appears to be some kind of device on the right side that covers the back of the cylinder, but I'm not sure what it's for (it appears to be covering up the chamber, as if you slid it out of the way, you could load an individual shell).
 
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#227
I think one of the problems with the Nagant in-game is that in reality it took forever to load ammo into it. Each round had to be inserted one at a time and unloading it took even longer because you had to manual extract each round with the built in rod one at a time, unlike more traditional break-open revlovers.

This may be why the developers might be reluctant to put it in game as a nagant user would be at a seriouse dissadvantage when reloading. A "Sitting duck" in other words.

I would still like to see it back in game for historical purposes though and let the player decide if he wants to use it over the Tokarev pistol.
 
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#229
Well I started to think about that long reloading sequence too and there could be a solution at the cost of historical accuracy. (but sometimes you need un-realistic stuff to make it work out the best)

I think it was dubbed "Cod Syndrome" where you would use a simplified method or reloading in order to reduse reloading time in order to make that weapon more playable. Such as removing the unloading of each shell from the process (which I dont recommend) or speeding it up to a slightly unrealistic level.

But I was also aiming more at give the Revolver other advantages that would counter its disadvantages, such as increased power, range, and accuracy. This would make you decide on the more powerful Nagant Revolver or the faster Tokarev.

I say speed up the animations a little bit but also give it some more power too.
 
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#230
Isaak Johnson said:
Well I started to think about that long reloading sequence too and there could be a solution at the cost of historical accuracy. (but sometimes you need un-realistic stuff to make it work out the best)

I think it was dubbed "Cod Syndrome" where you would use a simplified method or reloading in order to reduse reloading time in order to make that weapon more playable. Such as removing the unloading of each shell from the process (which I dont recommend) or speeding it up to a slightly unrealistic level.

But I was also aiming more at give the Revolver other advantages that would counter its disadvantages, such as increased power, range, and accuracy. This would make you decide on the more powerful Nagant Revolver or the faster Tokarev.

I say speed up the animations a little bit but also give it some more power too.
Click to expand...


Sir, I have to respectfully disagree. I know there are some balnced aspects of the game right now, but I'm of the camp that is heartily against that. Sure, you won't have the range, reload, or accuracy of a semi-auto pistol, but neither did the poor sap that had one on the fields of battle. I'd still take my chances with it at close range over an empty rifle, personally. I've always viewed military issued side-arms as a last resort piece. You shouldn't be using it just because you have it. It may save your life, so keep it loaded and handy.


By the way, this is an excellent thread. Exactly how discussion should be between rational peoples of both sides of an issue (though granted, the isn't much of an 'issue' here, just a suggestion, but eh...you know what I mean :))
 
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#232
Well I personally would prefer historical accuracy myself.

The gameplay issue can be solved simply by giving the player the option of using the Tokarev pistol as an option if he finds the Nagant too annoying or crippling.

The Nagant could simply be another interesting choice. I could see a revolver only version of Entwichen where people are trying to butt each other on the head while realoading. Could be entertaining to say the least.
 
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#233
Thank you for your comment Tak, Its really nice to see counter-arguments worded so polietly instead of aggressively.

I also agree with you totally Tak, but I also find that sometimes Reality and Gameplay have to be mixed just right for the game to work best, like a complicated bowl of soup.

I totally agree that it should be just the same as it was in reality but so far I feel that even if it was included at totall realism it would be in vain because no one would use it.

I also want to quickly mension that I still support at least a minor increase in Accuracy, range and power because of specific revolver vs semi-auto construction issues. You see, when the firing pin hits the cartrage in the gun, technically all the gunpowder inside is exploding, that explosion is used to force the bullet out the barrel. When using a semi-auto firearm some of that same energy is used to force the bolt or slide back to chamber the next round, such is the case for every semi-auto and full-auto weapon. When operating a revolver sidearm you do not have extra mechanics taking up some of the bullets energy and thus all the energy can go into the bullet instead of elsewhere, the bullet travels faster, it goes further, its greater speed induces greater accuracy and because its hitting a target at a greater speed it has more power in the shot. So I still support a small increase in range, accuracy and power, though not as much as I suggested in my last post.

Instead of changing the Revolver to have more power or something else, what would you all suggest doing to it in order to make its creation not a worthless decision?

I would also like to start off an idea to answer that question. Instead of messing with the Revolver to give it some advantages over its huge disadvantages lets equip it to our virtual soldiers on circumstance.

In the article I listed above in the first post, it stated that these Nagant Revolvers were supplied to average soldiers in Single-Action. Although I figure that they were also in shortage like everything else for the Russians during the war, I'm sure a couple maps set in the right timeframe and area could equip the Nagant to the average soldier without much problem according to historical facts. Besides, if you were a soldier, would you rather have the Nagant or nothing at all?

Also if two versions are created, a single-action and a double action (They look the same) then it could be quite possible for a map to have a "shortage" of Tokarev's as an excuse to put the Nagant into play as the primary pistol of the map for both soldiers and officers.

If you would all like I can post some info on the Tokarev and we can find out some more about where it was and was not during the war.
 
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#234
Isaak,
The velocity advantage you explain for revolvers is theoretical at best and would be outweighed by other factors such as variations in bore diameter and condition in individual weapons. Normally, revolvers shooting the same ammo as semiautomatic handguns achieve lower velocity because of the barrel-cylinder gap. The 1895 Nagant revolver has a unique gas seal system to avoid this issue, but it's kind of a moot point here because the Nagant revolver and the TT-33 shoot entirely different cartridges.

Both are 7.62mm or .30 caliber. The Nagant revolver fired a 108-grain bullet at around 1,000 feet per second. The TT-33 fired an 86-grain bullet at around 1,400 feet per second. By most accountings the TT-33 would be considered more powerful. The revolver round fired a blunt-nosed bullet of somewhat greater weight, which may have increased "stopping power" somewhat but the TT-33 has significantly more velocity and better penetration on things like steel helmets.

The actual difference in the effects of these two rounds on a human target are probably pretty slight, but the revolver definitely should not have any measurable advantage in the game.

As far as the single action versions, these were relatively rare and I believe limited to the early years of production. I don't believe they were in any kind of widespread issue during World War II.
 
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#235
Great post man. I agree with you. If wasn't uncommon to find Russian cops in the 70's using Nagant pistols, that were twice the guy's age. If I remember correctly it was shown but not usable in the Call of Duty Red Square level. Maybe but the Nagant into the early war maps(not many of these). Sure the TT-33 was around but the Soviets didn't instantly replace ALL the Nagants with the TT-33's.
 
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#240
Bat Guano, I want to thank you for bringing those facts to all of our attention, it is extreemly helpful and I appreciate your contribution to this forum topic. The more info we get the better it will turn out in the end.

I also want to thank FatPartizan for the picture, it gives a very good view of the size of the Nagant Revolver compared to a normal sized hand, that will prove most helpful for the Dev's if they decide to include the Nagant.

So now I move to a new question for us to try and discuss.

Now that we have come to the conclusion that the Nagant Revolver will not have any added features or anything of the sort to give it other advantages than the Tokarev, what about the ammunition loading process?

Should the process of reloading be totally realistic or sped up a little bit for gameplay purposes? Also, what process should the in-game player use to reload the firearm? How will he hold it? Will he take all empty rounds out first and then load new ones or will be unload and reload each chamber separetly?

And I also encourage comment on my previous question. Instead of changing the Revolver to have more power or something else, what would you all suggest doing to it in order to make its creation not a worthless decision?

I want to thank everyone for helping keep this topic clean and keep it moving forward towards progress.
 
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