Suggested scoring change
- Thread starter [CoFR]BeerHunter
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Avenger said:
Ok, how about this. Take the scoreboard away, and the score whores will still try to come up with some way to be 1337 and will still just play for themselves. On the other hand, ADD a scoreboard and someone who might otherwise not really care about score may end up playing purely for themselves.
That said, I too like getting a high score, but I'm far more concerned with the team winning the round. And when I'm doing things that really help the team win rounds (IE: capture positions, resupply MGers), my score reflects that. But my score won't reflect everything I do that helps the team and as has been pointed out, no computer game can accurately do that.
This is why I suggest a mutator. It doesn't force anything on anyone, and both sides win. This has always been one of the biggest strengths of the UT series of engines.
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[CoFR]BeerHunter said:
Fair point, mate. Although, perhaps an overall scoreboard with individual stats with things like accuracy, kill/death ratio, deaths, kills, etc...
That way you take the "ahhh! Must kill everybody so I have the l337 high score!" feeling out of the round, but you still see you kills and stats like that at the end of the round
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Capt.Marion said:
I actually like that idea. Seriously, I think it would be a great compromise. Make the points all go into a team total (using the same values we have now). So an average team-total score would be what, around 300-400 points? More on a server of vets or during a clan match. Then for the individual players, they still get to have confirmed kills to let them gloat with (because hey, we all like to do it now and then), and important stats like K/D ratio (Ok, I'm rushing too much. Slow down) and accuracy (I need to check my shots more).
Pretty big win-win. Go 'public' with that idea
RO needs a swift kick in the pants that emphasises team-play.
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Avenger said:
Actually, I did read what I quoted. I simply responded to only one aspect of it -- namely the "Quit saying take away the scoreboard and people will play for the team". I think that while taking away the scoreboard won't make EVERYONE play for the team, but including the scoreboard will make peopel who might otherwise be team players play only for themselves.
As for the notion of tracking stats (accuracy, positions captured, etc.), I don't think that'd "solve" the problem of scorewhores. In essence, the stats would become the new "score." "Gotta get my '# of MGers killed' higher, so I'll spend the round just hunting MGers and not doing anything else." If you don't believe people will do things like this, spend a week playing BF2 on ranked servers.
People will repeat whatever mechanical behavior is tracked in the most basic mechanical way possible. Because these values cannot take context into account without becoming stupidly complex, you end up with systems where people will repeat the mechanical behavior OUTSIDE of the desired context purely to make the number increase.
Now, those scorewhores and stat padders are going to find some way to do this unless you literally remove ALL metrics from the game (score, stats, etc.). The people who could go either way, I don't see this changing the equation.
But hey, that's the great thing about this game -- we could do mutators for either or both systems (removing metrics altogether and simply saying "Axis/Allies win the round" vs. removing points and only showing personal stats and then only if the team wins).
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There is no such thing as a "score whore" in Red Orchestra. Where did you guys get this ridiculous idea?
Killing and capturing = high score
Killing and capturing = victory for your team
Therefore,
high score = victory for your team
I don't think the inclusion of a scoreboard affects players' behavoir one way or the other, but there are good reasons to have it there. It lets you know who is contributing and who is dead weight. It also tells you which class everyone is, so you know who to call on if you need a sniper, MG, et cetera. It has the reinforcement counts for each side, which is nice to know. Most importantly, it shows whether the teams are even or not, and whether you have any AFK players on your team.
Bottom line: If you don't like the scoreboard, you don't have to look at it. But there are those of us that do find it useful, so quit asking for it to be taken out just because you're hurt that you're not on top.
Killing and capturing = high score
Killing and capturing = victory for your team
Therefore,
high score = victory for your team
I don't think the inclusion of a scoreboard affects players' behavoir one way or the other, but there are good reasons to have it there. It lets you know who is contributing and who is dead weight. It also tells you which class everyone is, so you know who to call on if you need a sniper, MG, et cetera. It has the reinforcement counts for each side, which is nice to know. Most importantly, it shows whether the teams are even or not, and whether you have any AFK players on your team.
Bottom line: If you don't like the scoreboard, you don't have to look at it. But there are those of us that do find it useful, so quit asking for it to be taken out just because you're hurt that you're not on top.
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Au contrair. There absolutely is such a thing as a scorewhore, although scorewhores usually aren't that smart and don't understand the game very well.
Yes, capturing an objective gives you points. But sometimes it's better to let that objective go because you can maintain a much tighter defense without it. Or because the objective you're AT is already under attack by the enemy team and you leaving will only allow them to capture faster (or you leaving is what allows them to start capturing). Scorewhores don't care. They're in it for the points.
Also, I think we've all played with people who are purely concerned with their total number of kills instead of covering their teammates or capping/defending objectives.
Granted, given the relatively low number of things that get points, scorewhores aren't as big a problem, but they're still a problem. How about that guy who grabs a tank and is more concerned with mowing down lone infantry here and there because it pumps his score, rather than taking out the tank that's mowing down his own team's infantry? How about the guy who runs and grabs an APC to take to the frontlines and cap an objective but is so concerned with getting there first that he leaves his teammates behind? Or how about the MGer who won't set up in a position where he can SUPPRESS a large number of enemies moving towards the capture point, and instead goes to a position where he can KILL (and get points) but allows the capture point to be taken? Or how about the officer who drops arty in a zone where he can kill people, but doesn't drop it in an area where he's denying the enemy access to a capture point?
Points don't equate to good team behavior, although RO does a better job than most games. Focusing purely on what gets points, though, often ignores a lot of what makes a good team player, and can encourage people to just do what it takes to get points instead of what it takes to help the team win. And while the two often do overlap, many times there's a BETTER use for a player or his weapon or class. Just because you can say "What?? I'm helping the team by killing those guys" doesn't mean that's the highest and best use for your class at that particular moment.
Yes, capturing an objective gives you points. But sometimes it's better to let that objective go because you can maintain a much tighter defense without it. Or because the objective you're AT is already under attack by the enemy team and you leaving will only allow them to capture faster (or you leaving is what allows them to start capturing). Scorewhores don't care. They're in it for the points.
Also, I think we've all played with people who are purely concerned with their total number of kills instead of covering their teammates or capping/defending objectives.
Granted, given the relatively low number of things that get points, scorewhores aren't as big a problem, but they're still a problem. How about that guy who grabs a tank and is more concerned with mowing down lone infantry here and there because it pumps his score, rather than taking out the tank that's mowing down his own team's infantry? How about the guy who runs and grabs an APC to take to the frontlines and cap an objective but is so concerned with getting there first that he leaves his teammates behind? Or how about the MGer who won't set up in a position where he can SUPPRESS a large number of enemies moving towards the capture point, and instead goes to a position where he can KILL (and get points) but allows the capture point to be taken? Or how about the officer who drops arty in a zone where he can kill people, but doesn't drop it in an area where he's denying the enemy access to a capture point?
Points don't equate to good team behavior, although RO does a better job than most games. Focusing purely on what gets points, though, often ignores a lot of what makes a good team player, and can encourage people to just do what it takes to get points instead of what it takes to help the team win. And while the two often do overlap, many times there's a BETTER use for a player or his weapon or class. Just because you can say "What?? I'm helping the team by killing those guys" doesn't mean that's the highest and best use for your class at that particular moment.
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I think you show get a couple points for blowing up a door or objective, since you do get like 5 points for resupply of mg
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Removing kill points seems like a bad idea to me. And to be honest, Im not sure it will really drive those players who never move up to cap to actually do anything.
As for the scoreboard discussion, removing it will not do anything to improve teamwork. People play with their prefered style. If they dont want to play with the team, they never will, scoreboard or not.
As for the scoreboard discussion, removing it will not do anything to improve teamwork. People play with their prefered style. If they dont want to play with the team, they never will, scoreboard or not.
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Well lets try to stick to things that will add to the team. Accuracy for example, is anyone really going to mad at teammate and call him a "accuracy whore" because he has the highest on the team? Hell no! Things like that are what we need, a score system you can't abuse unless you tried overly hard.
Take a damage points system for example, (I know RO doesn't use one, but this is just a example) you get 1 point for each point of damage you do to the enemy. Now no one is simply going to not say, "Ok hes almost dead, so I won't shoot him and just move on to the next enemy 'cause this guy wont give me any points." I mean someone could very well do that but they would have to go out of their way to do it.
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I just don't get it. Complaining about "score whores" is as pointless as complaining about the Easter Bunny, because they're both figments of the imagination.
I think we can all agree that the scoring system could use some changes. If Tripwire agrees, I'll cross my fingers and hope they implement something that's simple and solid; not some uber-mutator that allows server admins to screw with the gameplay to suit their own whims.
I think we can all agree that the scoring system could use some changes. If Tripwire agrees, I'll cross my fingers and hope they implement something that's simple and solid; not some uber-mutator that allows server admins to screw with the gameplay to suit their own whims.
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