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Tanks Overpowered?

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#21
Darkseed said:
Like Sclass12 already said, no everyone can in fact carry three fausts at a time, test it for yourself and you'll see. Furthermore, in the beta before the penetration bug was introduced most of the time it only took one faust to kill a tank, which is how it will most likely be once again when they fix this bug in the next patch.
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Perhaps it is because only one is going to appear at a time in the box and then you have to wait for another to respawn that I never noticed this. I do know that when I play a PAK-Soldat I can just jump on the ammo crates for more, although it gets buggy some times and makes me wait.

Standing around for two minutes wiating for the magic faust crate to refill though seems a waste of time for your average rifleman.
 
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#23
Musketeer said:
Perhaps it is because only one is going to appear at a time in the box and then you have to wait for another to respawn that I never noticed this. I do know that when I play a PAK-Soldat I can just jump on the ammo crates for more, although it gets buggy some times and makes me wait.

Standing around for two minutes wiating for the magic faust crate to refill though seems a waste of time for your average rifleman.
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Some crates have more than one. Anyways, they spawn in less the 30 seconds.
 
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#26
downxerd said:
I find that tanks are overpowered because of their resistance to that anti-tank rifle. I discussed this with my friend and he was telling me about how they screwed up something with the tanks, giving it "hitpoints."

Instead, he said that they intended to be more realistic and make it so that the tank's armor can be punctured and can be more damaged in the unprotected areas (making it so that tanks could actually die at different rates depending upon where it was shot).

Example of this hitpoint theory:
The tank has been under fire from other tanks and infantry with the anti tank rifle. The "hitpoints" of the tank is very low and a grenade is thrown at it. This grenade in reality would do no significant damage to the tank. But because of this "hitpoint" mistake, the grenade makes the little damage on the hitpoints so that the tank blows up...

Dont take this the wrong way, it would be very hard to destroy a tank with infantry. But i think that they need to change some things around. Not only tank vs. infantry...but also tank vs. tank.
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Do you not understand that the anti tank rifles were outdated and that's why they do nothing to the newer tanks. You also don't know how to use them.
 
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#27
Some clanmates and I did some PTRD tests. When we did them, the PTRD was right on the tank's ass, and the Panther and Tiger were apparently immune to the shell. Well the other day in a Tiger on Barashka, health in the yellow. I hear a 'clink' and a PTRD fire very close to me, and I see through my viewports a guy with a PTRD right behind me. Since during the tests my clan did none of the shots penetrated, I thought I was safe so I didn't bother with him. Next shot puts me in the red so I promptly got out and capped him. That PTRD is a wierd weapon.
 
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#29
EvilAmericanMan said:
Some clanmates and I did some PTRD tests. When we did them, the PTRD was right on the tank's ass, and the Panther and Tiger were apparently immune to the shell. Well the other day in a Tiger on Barashka, health in the yellow. I hear a 'clink' and a PTRD fire very close to me, and I see through my viewports a guy with a PTRD right behind me. Since during the tests my clan did none of the shots penetrated, I thought I was safe so I didn't bother with him. Next shot puts me in the red so I promptly got out and capped him. That PTRD is a wierd weapon.
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I think that has to do with the glitch in the system, ATM. Once your hull is breached, tanks seem to be hitpoint based. I got a 300 yard PRTD kill once a very wounded Panther tank. The driver and myself did a 'WTF'? I was just trying to distract him with the plinking, but ended up seeing 'PHWOOOOSH!' (Tak *bullet* driver).
 
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#30
akd said:
Save for the Pz III and T-60, all tanks in game should be virtually invulnerable to the AT rifle, unless the devs model damage to very specific components like optics and vision blocks.
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Not according to the 3.Pz-Div report from 1942, quoted in Jentz Panzertruppen vol 1:

"A Russian 12.7mm anti-tank rifle with a two-man crew has widely appeared.... The bullet penetrates the side walls of our Pz.Kpfw.III and IV. Ranges at which it can be fired are not known. The gunners have been instructed to fire at the glass blocks in the commander's cupola. Panzer-Regiment 6 lost six Panzer commanders because of this during the last battles."
 
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#31
Golf33 said:
Not according to the 3.Pz-Div report from 1942, quoted in Jentz Panzertruppen vol 1:

"A Russian 12.7mm anti-tank rifle with a two-man crew has widely appeared.... The bullet penetrates the side walls of our Pz.Kpfw.III and IV. Ranges at which it can be fired are not known. The gunners have been instructed to fire at the glass blocks in the commander's cupola. Panzer-Regiment 6 lost six Panzer commanders because of this during the last battles."
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Obviously an entirely reliable report, as the Russians didn't have 12.7mm AT rifles. Anyways, supports my point about damage to specific components. Nonetheless, I should have included the early Pz. IV in the list, as well, as its armor was less than later Pz. IIIs.
 
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#33
akd said:
Obviously an entirely reliable report, as the Russians didn't have 12.7mm AT rifles. Anyways, supports my point about damage to specific components. Nonetheless, I should have included the early Pz. IV in the list, as well, as its armor was less than later Pz. IIIs.
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I wouldn't expect a battlefield report to be accurate to the millimeter when describing a new piece of enemy equipment. It is quite clear that at least one German division experienced AT rifle fire that penetrated the side armour of their PZIV (most likely 30mm but possibly 20+20mm).

Certainly supports your point about damage to specific components. It would be good to have a more detailed damage model overall - the following results of taking hits are pretty common in the battlefield reports quoted by Jentz:

* jammed turret (quite common even from non-penetrating hits)
* wounded crew - commander/gunner/loader, driver, assistant driver
* jammed main gun (not normally from enemy action but German 5cm tank guns tended to jam with PzGr.40 ammunition to the point where it was withdrawn from use in at least some units; also the 7.5cm KwK 40 tended to jam firing PzGr 39)
* jammed tracks
* engine inoperable but not on fire
* engine or fuel fire (the crew invariably bails out immediately)

Some of this happens occasionally in RO:O but normally it's complete destruction or nothing. It would be good to see damage results occurring closer to historical proportion. Some of these do not currently happen in RO:O at all (jammed turret or main gun) or have less effect than they should (wounded crew, engine/fuel fire).

Regards
33
 
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#34
I have been saying from the get go that at the least, they should add hit boxes for crew members. I was almost certain they were going to in ROOST when I saw how detailed the new crew positions were.


Even if we cannot have turret jams or gun jams etc, taking out crew members would add so much more to this game. It would allow tanks to be incapacitated without the whole vehicle necessarily blowing up, because its crew would be gone!


If you also had position change delays, it would be even better. For example, commander gets taken out, then as a driver it will take you a little while to squirm up into the turret and take over the gun.



If the devs can model something as small as a track link being hit, I would think the gun or crew would also be feasible damage locations.
 
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#35
There are (or were) hitboxes for crew members in the mod. Especially if you drove with your hatch open, you could be shot and killed, or the tank itself could be killed by killing the driver. On the T-34, people who drove it alone could be killed easily with the hatch open. With German tanks having top-mounted hatches it's harder to kill a crewman unless he pops his head out.

Honestly, I don't think we can fairly judge how tanks are failing to work properly until we can see how the PROPER penetration modeling works. The devs are working on fixing the tank code, and in the meantime we'll have to suffer with 2-hit kills on most tanks and weirdness with AT rifles.

Once the proper damage system is in place THEN we can start to legitimately say "You should've done X, Y, and Z."
 
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#37
Solo4114 said:
There are (or were) hitboxes for crew members in the mod. Especially if you drove with your hatch open, you could be shot and killed, or the tank itself could be killed by killing the driver. On the T-34, people who drove it alone could be killed easily with the hatch open. With German tanks having top-mounted hatches it's harder to kill a crewman unless he pops his head out.
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This is also in RO:O - I've been hit as both driver and gunner while unbuttoned.

Jack said:
Even if we cannot have turret jams or gun jams etc, taking out crew members would add so much more to this game. It would allow tanks to be incapacitated without the whole vehicle necessarily blowing up, because its crew would be gone!
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I could see performance reasons for having the tank blow up if 'incapacitated'. It's a high-poly model so it can't be left sitting on the map, and just having it vanish doesn't feel terribly 'smooth' from an artistic viewpoint.
If you also had position change delays, it would be even better. For example, commander gets taken out, then as a driver it will take you a little while to squirm up into the turret and take over the gun.
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For crew casualty positions I could see a change-position delay being reasonable, alternatively just lock out that position so it can't be accessed at all, or implement some other penalty to reflect the practical effect of losing a crew member. For example (off the top of my head, would depend on how the sights etc were arranged in each tank):
* commander - lose the ability to look through viewports or unbutton
* gunner - lose the ability to aim through the main sight
* loader - reduced reload rate
* driver - immobilised
* assistant driver - lose the bow MG

There's other tweaking that could be done, limited-time lockouts to simulate dragging the casualty out of the tank and replacing him, being only able to access a casualty position from outside the tank, and so on.

Regards
33
 
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#39
Golf33, I have heard others beside yourself cite how "vanishing" tanks are not exactly the best thing from a cosmetic standpoint.


But, they vanish anyway! I mean they blow up, then sit there for a bit, then vanish! Also, if only one guy is occupying a tank, and you kill him while he is exposed, the tank vanishes as well.


So really, why couldn't the devs just have a "knocked out" model similar to a "blown up model?" Both would disappear in the same amount of time. A tank vanishing looks weird regardless, but we can at least make things somewhat more realistic by not having these big explosions and flames going up everytime a tank is killed.
 
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#40
If you kill the crewmembers of a tank by hitting them as they come unbuttoned, it wouldn't be realistic at all to see a knocked out tank model...why not let it sit there and keep the hatches open? Problem is though, if a tank is destroyed on a bridge and is blocking any other vehicle movement across it, the game is ruined.You have to have them dissapear in the event of that. Either that or create heavy pullers to move the tanks, but then again heavier tanks like the Tiger need two other Tigers to be towed from the battlefield. For this reason, vanishing is the only way to take care of the problem.
 
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