Being able to fire from SPW 251/1

[Rrralphster]

The problem with the armored transports is that there are too damn many AT weapons around.

The AT weapons proliferate on these maps and they really weren't that readily available. The Russian infanty had very little in the way of infantry AT weapons...that was the job of tanks. German infantry usually only carried 3-5 Panzerfausts per squad late in the war. Hell we can carry 3 each and on most maps it's not a problem to go grap 3 of the things!!!

Panzerfausts on maps are more plentiful than bullets and then Russians can pick them up and use them....

Now...is there any question why armored transports are so useless?

It all comes down to bad map design.

1. Limit the AT weapons to the spawning player only...quit dropping free panzerfausts all over the maps.

2. Design tank maps where TANKS are the primary AT weapon..not infantry.

3. Design a map that is infantry combat with JUST the armored transports and maybe ONE AT guy per side.

In game it's even worse. You can have 2 satchels AND 3 Fausts.
And that the Russians didn't have that much equipment for AT is not very correct. They received lend-lease Bazooka's, used AT grenades and even used Molotovs to disable German armour. Their doctrine wasn't aimed at destroying a tank, but to disable them.

 

[[5.SS]Strother]

Yeah I hate how people can spawn and grab panzerfausts right then and there...it is VERY annoying. Supposedly by the end of the war the Russians were using them because they were so commonly found. But I've managed to hold onto a village in Arad just by using an mp40 and the panzerfaust crate...you can litterly keep an armored column from getting into town by yourself.

 

[LukeFF]

1. Limit the AT weapons to the spawning player only...quit dropping free panzerfausts all over the maps.

2. Design tank maps where TANKS are the primary AT weapon..not infantry.

3. Design a map that is infantry combat with JUST the armored transports and maybe ONE AT guy per side.

The better solution for the Panzerfaust would be to limit them to one per player, as was reality. I've read interviews with German veterans on Feldgrau.com, and the consensus in every case is they could carry no more than one at a time, and even that was a chore, because they had to carry their primary weapon as well.

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18197

 

[Vonreuter]

I agree wholeheartedly. I love using the PAK-Soldat, but I hate the fact that any class can double as a poor man's PAK-Soldat by simply grabbing the first PzFaust that appears into the box out of nowhere. Not only are these magical PzFausts very odd in a game that claims to be realistic (is Hitler / Uncle Joe beaming them down from orbit?), but they also screw up the class balance. Granted, it's difficult to destroy a tank with just one 'Faust, but you can always wait for a second 'Faust to spawn.

PAK-Soldat gets three PzFausts, no grenades and an MP-40. As things are now, they should at least get grenades or get to choose between a rifle and an MP-40.

Soldat mit MK1 or Stosstruppe with STG-44 gets a much better weapon PLUS 2 grenades YET they can pick up a PzFaust immediately at spawn point. If they are patient enough or the situation just presents itself, they can easily wait for a second or a third PzFaust. That's just ridiculous.

To me, there's a definite imbalance. IMO, the PAK-Soldat should be the only class armed with PzFausts by default, and the rest should have to wait for his demise or ask him for a PzFaust before they can get their hands on them. This would make driving in halftracks (and tanking) a bit safer.

I wouldn't mind if there were Molotov cocktails for the other infantry classes. At least you have to get very close to have any chance of destroying a tank, but the specialty of the PAK-Soldat would remain just that: a specialty.

 

[MrBunsy]

I wouldn't mind if there were Molotov cocktails for the other infantry classes. At least you have to get very close to have any chance of destroying a tank, but the specialty of the PAK-Soldat would remain just that: a specialty.

Just thinking about that. Would replacing the panzerfausts which lie about the map with molotovs work?

 

[LukeFF]

I wouldn't mind if there were Molotov cocktails for the other infantry classes. At least you have to get very close to have any chance of destroying a tank, but the specialty of the PAK-Soldat would remain just that: a specialty.

But, by limiting the Panzerfaust to just the PaK-Soldat we would be going against historical reality, which was that any common infantryman could use them with very little training. As I said above, limit the number of Pfs carried to one, and IMO the problem will be largely solved. Of course, modeling the other typical German anti-tank weapons would be great, but I realize that'll probably take some development time.

 

[Rrralphster]

The better solution for the Panzerfaust would be to limit them to one per player, as was reality. I've read interviews with German veterans on Feldgrau.com, and the consensus in every case is they could carry no more than one at a time, and even that was a chore, because they had to carry their primary weapon as well.

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18197

Good thinking!

 

[Sichartshofen]

In game it's even worse. You can have 2 satchels AND 3 Fausts.

Don't forget the PTRD, pistol and 2 grenades. That adds up to over a 100 pounds of AT weapons.

 

[Zbojnik]

Don't forget the PTRD, pistol and 2 grenades. That adds up to over a 100 pounds of AT weapons.

Your telling me the pistol is an AT weapon.:| Well, I don't think that the average soldier would be able to carry 3 Panzerfausts, and his main weapon very easily. Hell the inert Panzerfaust I help was pretty big. I can't imagine carrying 3. I think the PaK soldat should have 2 maximum at a time. He also shouldn't be able to carry satchel charges. I understand the Russian soldiers using Panzerfausts since the damn instructions are on the warhead for christs sake.

I think one should be able to peek over the top of the halftrack to see what's happening. Especially the MP-40. If you look at the end of the barrel of the MP-40 there's an odd spur there. That was used by soldiers to hook there MP-40
s onto the firing ports of APC's. presumably the Sdkfz. 251. I also think that the MG gunner of the Sdkfz. 251 should be able to lift his head above his gun and look around just like the gunner of the BA-64. The view of the gunner of the half track is really limited and this feature should make it a little more even. Also some maps should have the half tracks with the MG-42 instead of the 34 on the top.

 

[Harry S. Truman]

These are mostly map problems.

It's the mapper that decides what kind of troops spawn, what they can carry and of course placing the magic panzerfaust crates everywhere.

 

[CKHenson]

I'm afraid this is impossible unless the gunner is actually standing on a soap box or something. Right now he is standing straight up, he just simply can't grow another 6 inches and look over the shield, while the gunner in the ba64 is actually sitting down, he can stand up which allows you to see over the turret.

This just isn't so. Their is voluminous photographic evidence of machinegunners in SPW 251/1s that show them crouching over the gun to fire it. When standing upright they are clearly exposed above the shoulder behind the gunshield. Passengers seated on the benches clearly have the tops of their helmets exposed. I think the modelers of the vehicle have made the walls of the vehicle to high and need to add the ability to see over the gunshield and and turn outwards from the passenger seats and look over the side wall.

 

[Vonreuter]

If everybody gets PzFausts or their number is limited to 1 per person, I'd like the PAK-Soldat to get two grenades. Giving the other soldiers just Molotovs would help too.

But the PzFausts appearing out of nowhere have to go!

A Panzerfaust weighs from 5 kg (Panzerfaust 30) to almost 7 kilos (Panzerfaust 100). 3 PzFausts, i.e. 15 kilos of added weight, is rather a lot, but it's hardly an impossible scenario! With a weapon, the PAK-Soldat would have a load of around 20 kilos. However, you can also get pick up satchel charges, which weigh, what, 5 kilos (?) each. So all in all, a maximally armed character would have about 30 kilos on him. That's quite a lot of equipment, but it's still not unbearable (in the physical sense).

In the army we used to walk around everywhere with 20 kilos in our backpack and 15 more as combat gear. That's 35 kilos - and we still had a bunch of mines (10 kg each) for some "fortunate" squad members to carry. So, if misfortune was grinning at you that day, you might end up carrying 55 kilos (full gear + 2 AT-mines). Of course, one wouldn't want to FIGHT in that load (at least drop the 20-kilo backpack!), but it's a fact that soldiers do tend to carry a lot of gear around.

I think it's clear without saying that we did practice attacking in all that gear... Thank God they didn't require the use of gas masks at the same time!

I've seen a picture of jovial-looking Volksturm bicycle troops driving through a village with two PzFausts (PzF 100?) clinging from the bike's horns. Anybody know where I might find it? It clearly shows that at the end of the war, there were more PzFausts than able soldiers to go around.

 

[Rrralphster]

I don't think the weight of 3 Fausts would be the problem. I would say that the bulkiness is more of a problem. Those things are pretty big. Add that to a main weapon and it does get kinda unrealistic to me.
Although I do understand that having only one shot at a tank is a bit much to ask. What if you miss?
This is a gameplay ballance which I don't mind having either way, personally.
1 vs 3 Fausts... difficult descission...
Maybe I would rather have the German AT class removed and have Fausts at the spawn for everyone to grab but only allow one per person.

Back on topic:

Having people in a Half-track is not that hard on server resources. But allowing all the passengers to fire is.
This requires a lot of computin' power.

 

[ViViD]

What we need with the halftrack like tanks it not instant blow ups, but disable, crew kills, passenger kills.

This will allow some members to dismount, this is more realistic then instant blow ups.

I really do hope tripwire try to included penetrations and bailing into the game and not the arcade instant blow ups.

 

[Vonreuter]

You're absolute right, ViVid.

How about a compromise of two PzFausts per man? I've found that it usually takes two hits to destroy any heavy tank (unless you have the luxury of aiming at sweet spots) so missing is not the only cause for concern.

 

[TKP]

A problem that needs to be addressed is that the gunner can not see at all. He should be able to see to the left and the right. But as it is now he can only look forward. The HT needs to be able to spot hazards (enemy tanks and AT infantry)

 

[SasQuatch]

The problem with the armored transports is that there are too damn many AT weapons around.

The AT weapons proliferate on these maps and they really weren't that readily available. The Russian infanty had very little in the way of infantry AT weapons...that was the job of tanks. German infantry usually only carried 3-5 Panzerfausts per squad late in the war. Hell we can carry 3 each and on most maps it's not a problem to go grab 3 of the damn things!!!

Panzerfausts on maps are more plentiful than bullets AND the Russians can pick them up and use them....

Now...is there any question why armored transports are so useless?

It all comes down to bad map design.

1. Limit the AT weapons to the spawning player only...quit dropping free panzerfausts all over the maps.

2. Design tank maps where TANKS are the primary AT weapon..not infantry.

3. Design a map that is infantry combat with JUST the armored transports and maybe ONE AT guy per side.

Your ideas in general will make the tanks dominating infantry in the current game. Bad gameplay design. Great war design though.
The good thing about the PF pickups is that it makes close quarters a hazardous place for tanks, like in real life. And it prevents tanks from dominating gameplay totally. I call that good map design

PS: doesnt mean we could use some improvents like a proper insta kill russian AT weapon or pickup limitations.

 

[fatox]

I think you should be allowed to pick up whatever you want, up to a total of say 50 pounds. Add up the weight, adjust the movement speed (perhaps to nothing) and make people tire quickly. Then make it much slower to swap weapons. It's the players choice and I think we would see people carrying more realistic loads.

 

[akd]

You're absolute right, ViVid.

How about a compromise of two PzFausts per man? I've found that it usually takes two hits to destroy any heavy tank (unless you have the luxury of aiming at sweet spots) so missing is not the only cause for concern.

There is the problem right there. It shouldn't take two hits. Nor should Panzerfaust damage be cumulative. Either the panzerfaust penetrates and does serious harm, or it doesn't penetrate and does little or only exterior damage. Shaped-charge warheads have very devastating effects if they can get past armor, but they still require penetration. This means maneuvering or waiting to take shots at tanks from vulnerable angles, like the sides or rear.

If you feel you need to carry two Panzerfausts "in case you miss," then you need to get closer.

1 Panzerfaust = 1 tank

Carrying more than one Panzerfaust is absurd. Respawning Panzerfausts laying around the battlefield is even more absurd. This whole one man armory thing has got to go (although it is funny as hell when you kill one of these guys and this huge pile of loot twice as big as the body appears).

Your ideas in general will make the tanks dominating infantry in the current game. Bad gameplay design. Great war design though.
The good thing about the PF pickups is that it makes close quarters a hazardous place for tanks, like in real life. And it prevents tanks from dominating gameplay totally. I call that good map design

PS: doesnt mean we could use some improvents like a proper insta kill russian AT weapon or pickup limitations.

If this is about gameplay balance and not history, couldn't there be more historical ways to achieve this? It would seem to me that even 2 to 3 men with a single Panzerfaust along with 1 or 2 others with satchels would be more than enough incentive for Soviet tankers to stay out of close terrain, IF the Panzerfaust is capable of dealing realistic damage. Also, this gives the player who selects the anti-tank class a much more important role to play, increasing their sense of team value.

For the Soviets, give them more tanks. That was their "insta-kill" AT weapon.

Providing more cover and concealment for infantry would also help. Those woods on Arad that suck you into some alternate universe if you touch them are an excellent example of missed opportunities to increase the value and threat of infantry on a tank map.

 

[Amarok]

What we need with the halftrack like tanks it not instant blow ups, but disable, crew kills, passenger kills.

This will allow some members to dismount, this is more realistic then instant blow ups.

I really do hope tripwire try to included penetrations and bailing into the game and not the arcade instant blow ups.

You're right... as long as you don't get a HE round into the halftrack (or a nade, a satchel)... 'cause then you're definitely FUBAR. An AP or a PF would not always kill everyone in the vehicle... but pray someting loud when you try to leave (as usually the guy who took you off would probably wait with a MG, SMG or just a rifle or a second nade to fulfill the job. You'd have a chance to survive though.

Also, if the engine allows it without bringing any server down the knees, it should be possible for the passengers (at least for one sitting backwards) to have a look around and shoot, just to keep infantry, sapers and other threats away.