• Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/

Benefits for staying alive...

I think the key point here is that outside penalties for death/rewards for survival can potentially just exagerate skill differences, so more skilled players have it even easier, and less skilled players have it even harder; ie, the example where a team of mostly casual players against a team of mostly vets loses what little chance they had of winning when the new death penalties are added. I think the way around this is to try to make the penalties/rewards preferencial, and not necesserily outright advantages/disavantages in gameplay.

An example that comes to mind, off the top of my head, is True Combat Elite's awards system. Basically, players get a wider selection of weapons and customizations the more they survive, complete objectives, and kill enemies. The differences in the weapons are more minor and preferencial... the M16 or AK47 you start with is perfectly capable of getting the job done, but many prefer to use a SIG, M4A1, AK74U, etc, sometimes with attachments like reflex sights, supressors, etc. While the high-AA weapons may have slight advantages over the base weapons, it is largely an issue of personal preference, and many feel that the M16A2 and Ak47 are still superior to anything you get later, and stick with it even when they have other choices.

Thus, the result is, you have a personal motivation to stay alive; you like to use the weapon you like to use, and you don't want to lose it just because of a pointless death. However, a higher fire rate, reflex sight, or supressor is not going to make a difference in winning or losing the match, so it doesn't really give the "up" players an unfair advantage...atleast not too much.

TCE's awards system isn't perfect, and I don't necessarily think RO should adopt it, but I think it's a good example of rewarding survival without exagerating skill differences.

I suppose you could implement something like this in RO though if you wanted to. For example, if you had high awards points, you could choose to use a STG44 over MP40, PPSH over a PPD40, or an MG42 over an MG34...etc. Don't know if it'd quite work, but it's an idea.
 
Upvote 0
I think that score really motivates people. If the score board focuses only on kill, people will go for kills, focuses on capping, people with cap more, etc. My point is that if you make deaths a major part of the scoreboard, like a kill/death ratio as suggested before, then people would be more motivated to stay alive. I think there should be the categories of kills, deaths, kills/deaths, cap, and then total, with only the kills and deaths actually counting towards the total, and the ratio just there for easier comparison. Also make it so that kills will give the same amount that deaths will take away. And make capping give like 5 points, and kills and deaths give 1 and -1 respectivley, or something along those lines. Then we still need to figure out to how give scores for using teamwork, but I do not see how that could effectivley done.
 
Upvote 0
I personally think that much of what has been suggested to solve the 'problem' of people dying is going to make things worse.

Firstly, does anyone here actually not care when they die?

Sure, its not a massive penalty - but then again this is a reinforcement based game and therefore the penalty is never going to be massive or else the game won't flow.*

Nobody wants to die. Its a pain in the arse as it is, and penalising poor players isn't going to make them better. And the good players don't need rewards.

That said - I DO like the idea of medals - though this could be an end of round thing simply to add an extra thing to the scoreboard (or possibly replace it?!)

Actually, that makes me think of the Hitman games and the rating system... That might be quite cool :)

Meh, maybe not for RO.

*Those of you who have played WWIIOL will understand the true meaning of death penalties. As much as I like that game - during the time I played you had to walk from your FB to the objective (unless you were lucky enough to get a lift) and it took 10 MINUTES. And once you fought you had to run back to base to actually count as a successful mission. Thats 10 Mins out - 5 mins fighting (all the while hoping like hell nobody saw you) - then 10 minutes back.

Talk about fear of death in games! :D
 
Upvote 0
i dont like the k:d ratio cause then it just turns into DoD, people kill and dont care about caps and such, and the running idea, welllll no i dont like that, but the respawn idea seems to work pretty well because when im playing and a mg is pinning me down, i want to be scared not think, oh i guess ill pop out and TRY to kill him and if i die... oh well
 
Upvote 0
Nah, that doesn't sound too well-thought - if people would get rewarded for staying alive longer, what do you expect them to do?

Yup - they all hide somewhere in the map until they get their kewl uber-bonuses unlocked, and *then* they will start to engage the enemy. That's not like it was on the Eastern Front. I also don't like the idea of counting stats and ranks and such - that just encourages idiots to farm and push their stats, just like in BF2, which is something that would totally kill the RO-feeling, where everybody is ****ed in the exact same way, without any extras for anybody.

And about respawning... spawning too far away from the enemy creates some problems that were existing in RO, the mod - it's just boring to walk the exact same paths over and over and over and over and take too much time to get back to the front. I like the way CoD2 handles it's spawning dynamically, although that system has some glitches, it generates a quite interesting experience on the battlefield, especially in HQ-mode, where you get to defend or attack almost all positions throughout a map - not so realistic, nor very linear, but somehow quite diverting, as it isn't predictable where you have to go next.

But, I'm totally against rewarding players with better stats. Only because you have some great stats doesn't tell much about your qualities as a soldier or teamplayer - or do you get points for sacrificing yourself so that sniper can take out the MG at the other end of the road? Do you get points for catching bullets for you already-injured friend who walks besides you? Nah, I don't think so.

So just get rid of that - as long as you only get points for killing and capturing, points are quite pointless, at least in my view. If anybody here plays BF2 on ranked servers, they will know the problem of people not playing team-based, but stats-based, just because they want to have that friggin' medal you get for having the most points in a round. Just sooo~ooo cheap.
 
Upvote 0
masasa said:
The best and most natural solution would be this:

Make the maps bigger so it takes minutes instead of seconds to get to the fight. This way people might not throw themselves to death when they knew that they would have to make an effort to get back to the fight when they die.

Of course most people wouldn't like this system since they want constant action.

This is also the reason why we can't make the reinforcement timer longer either.

But I don't know. The current system what we have in the mod ain't really bad. If someone wants to roleplay he can try to survive the whole round if he wants. I don't really see why we should reward players for staying alive. Everyone has their own playing style and the game shouldn't decide which one is best.

A sensible attitude. I agree in general with this.

In our clan (http://www.greyguardclan.com - see "Mission Statement") we are far more interested in staying alive than in having high kills scores at the expense of absurd death numbers. We are far more impressed by fellow soldiers who score 5 kills with zero deaths than by silly rambo types who get 57 kills but have 37 deaths. Several of our clan members are real ex-soldiers and can tell you that in real war such rambos mostly just get their colleagues killed by giving away the squad's position with such dumb behaviour.

I am interested in the maximum realism and although they occasionally have the heroism (when there is really no alternative) to "take one for the team" most real soldiers are very very anxious to try and stay alive as long as possible. After all a dead comrade is useless to your attack or defense. Getting killed is either plain bad luck or bad soldiering! That's why "situational awereness", stealth, use of cover, and patience are crucial to ALL forms of combat, including submarine warfare and aeriel dogfighting in aircraft. Run & gun noisy ramboing is strictly for children and (rapidly dead) recruits. FNG's as they called them in Vietnam! (F***ing New Guys) The most kills attained by any pilot in WW2 were by a German who's technique was to "hide" at high altitude, dive out of nowhere, make a quick kill, and return to the distance as fast as possible. That achieved over 300 kills. The guys than ran into trouble with all guns blazing generally died in their first fight, however many they took with them. That kind of warfare worked well in Viking times but with modern weapons it is suicidal and just plain stupid.

I should add that I am 60 and come from the third generation of a military family (of Officers and Warrant Officers) who fought in both WW1, WW2 and the Korean War. Courage is a matter of endurance, avodiing panic, patience and using your brain when your body wants to run. Sometimes jumping up and shooting wildly is what you really want to do most but it is the fastest way to die and get your squad mates killed too. The one time it is really called for is when leading an attack, when one brave man with no regard for his own safety can turn the tide of a fire-fight or even a battle by rallying his fellow soldiers and getting them to follow him in a wave of furious attack. Winning battles is a complex skill and invoilves a lot of practical psychology.

For example - we have all experienced the compulsion after a re-spawn to return to "get" the enemy who killed us. Knowing that should enable that enemy to predict our return and cover from some other vantage point the routes we are likely to take when we come back. By doing this repeatedly, choosing a new location each time, you can repeatedly kill the compulsive victim who will just keep coming back to get you, like a chicken to the slaughter. A lot of good soldiering is about THINKING about what your enemy will do next and being ready. This works because there are so many dumb and thoughtless rambos out there. This is true in both the real and virtual battlefields because it is human nature. This is why I find gaming so fascinating.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
I don't know, in my opinion it would promote passive gameplay. I'd slightly alter it by adding some sort of kill per minute system to it, then again, it might draw attention from the very basic idea of the game: the capture of map strongpoints. All in all, it would require serious testing to see if it has negative effects on the gameplay. Dying should not be encouraged for more realistic gameplay, but nor should sitting in a corner throughout the game gathering kills.
 
Upvote 0
KrazyKraut said:
How about a progressive kill system? Like: first kill=1 point, second kill=1.5 points, third kill= 2 points, etc... would reset to 1 point if you die... and wouldn't promote passive players or AFKs.

Good idea. Simple but effective. Yer... would have to be tested first to see what the exact increment or method of increase would work the best.
 
Upvote 0
Lionman said:
In our clan (http://www.greyguardclan.com - see "Mission Statement") we are far more interested in staying alive than in having high kills scores at the expense of absurd death numbers. We are far more impressed by fellow soldiers who score 5 kills with zero deaths than by silly rambo types who get 57 kills but have 37 deaths. Several of our clan members are real ex-soldiers and can tell you that in real war such rambos mostly just get their colleagues killed by giving away the squad's position with such dumb behaviour.

I am interested in the maximum realism and although they occasionally have the heroism (when there is really no alternative) to "take one for the team" most real soldiers are very very anxious to try and stay alive as long as possible. After all a dead comrade is useless to your attack or defense. Getting killed is either plain bad luck or bad soldiering! That's why "situational awereness", stealth, use of cover, and patience are crucial to ALL forms of combat, including submarine warfare and aeriel dogfighting in aircraft. Run & gun noisy ramboing is strictly for children and (rapidly dead) recruits. FNG's as they called them in Vietnam! (F***ing New Guys) The most kills attained by any pilot in WW2 were by a German who's technique was to "hide" at high altitude, dive out of nowhere, make a quick kill, and return to the distance as fast as possible. That achieved over 300 kills. The guys than ran into trouble with all guns blazing generally died in their first fight, however many they took with them. That kind of warfare worked well in Viking times but with modern weapons it is suicidal and just plain stupid.

I should add that I am 60 and come from the third generation of a military family (of Officers and Warrant Officers) who fought in both WW1, WW2 and the Korean War. Courage is a matter of endurance, avodiing panic, patience and using your brain when your body wants to run. Sometimes jumping up and shooting wildly is what you really want to do most but it is the fastest way to die and get your squad mates killed too. The one time it is really called for is when leading an attack, when one brave man with no regard for his own safety can turn the tide of a fire-fight or even a battle by rallying his fellow soldiers and getting them to follow him in a wave of furious attack. Winning battles is a complex skill and invoilves a lot of practical psychology.

For example - we have all experienced the compulsion after a re-spawn to return to "get" the enemy who killed us. Knowing that should enable that enemy to predict our return and cover from some other vantage point the routes we are likely to take when we come back. By doing this repeatedly, choosing a new location each time, you can repeatedly kill the compulsive victim who will just keep coming back to get you, like a chicken to the slaughter. A lot of good soldiering is about THINKING about what your enemy will do next and being ready. This works because there are so many dumb and thoughtless rambos out there. This is true in both the real and virtual battlefields because it is human nature. This is why I find gaming so fascinating.
Thanks for that great post! :)
 
Upvote 0
I have an idea.
I only read the first page, so forgive me if this has already been suggested... but instead of punishing those who die frequently, why don't reward those who live? The easiest way of doing that which I can think of off the top of my head is to make players who have been alive for, say, 3 minutes (5 minutes?) respawn instantly, with no wait. While this may break up the wave effect slightly, it shouldn't do it too much, and would encourage people to cower in fear behind a rock under a bombed-out tank while machine gun fire hails down all around them. You know, like real life. =P

Just an ieda. Whaddaya think?
 
Upvote 0
Penalty for deaths

Penalty for deaths

I have been playing another game that actually gives you a point for death.
I discoverd it while watching my score on a tie kill where both my opponent and myself killed each other.

That tie gave me 6 points rather than five. Stupid huh.

High score in these shooter games is always the objective and maybe correct.

I pesonally feel that if you simply run about and get at least one kill before you are killed and you do that a lot you will arrive at the top of the score list.

It proves nothing and requires no skill at all.

If you get points for a kill great. How about a 20% to 50% - minus score for a death.
That would put some skill in the game. Lots of kills lots of points. You keep your points by playing with some skill and you keep most of them.

Bob
 
Upvote 0