• Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/

Tactics How about those Bolt Action Rifles?

Jump to latest Follow Reply
Sort by date Sort by votes
L

Lonestar Ranger

Grizzled Veteran
Apr 7, 2006
116
0
#1
I am amazed that the Germans used those bolt action rifles as long as they did as opposed to the semi auto rifles. You better damn well be with your team and fighting as a team to get any fire power layed down. And better be with them when you move into close quarter fighting like in the apartment. If you move in alone you are dead soon with the slow reload and only two grenades and a bayonet. I used bolt action one time outside and had six russians moving in my direction and I was not with my team, it sure as hell made me withdraw and go link up with my team because I knew I would be dead soon - at most I might get two of the Russians before one got me :) Very realistic game.
 
#4
Lonestar Ranger said:
I am amazed that the Germans used those bolt action rifles as long as they did as opposed to the semi auto rifles. You better damn well be with your team and fighting as a team to get any fire power layed down. And better be with them when you move into close quarter fighting like in the apartment. If you move in alone you are dead soon with the slow reload and only two grenades and a bayonet. I used bolt action one time outside and had six russians moving in my direction and I was not with my team, it sure as hell made me withdraw and go link up with my team because I knew I would be dead soon - at most I might get two of the Russians before one got me :) Very realistic game.
Click to expand...

Close range = bigger target
bigger target = easy hit
therefore close range equals easy hit

you need to play and practice more before you make evaluations, i do fine with bolt action in most all situations, which is why i like them more than smgs, which i see have IMHO limited options
 
Upvote 0
#5
The rifle suited many more combat roles than just close-up fighting. SMGs were limited in effect from long ranges. The war did see the advent of semi-automatic rifles and even the first assault rifles (using short SMG ammunition), but the bolt-action rifle was still the mainstay of the army.

The German rifleman's main job was to hold the line and carry ammunition for the squad's MGs, which were the heart of the German rifle squad (at the ending phases of the war, many squads were issued two MGs). Ever wondered why the Kar98k used exactly the same ammunition as the MG34 and MG42? Uh huh, now you know.

German rifle squads had many SMGs to complement close-range firepower. The number of SMGs number varied a lot as the war progressed, so it's impossible to say how many, but you can count roughly one SMG per Offizier and Unteroffizier or Zug leader.

However, most combat in ROOST is done at ranges which favour SMGs more than the "real-world" situation. In close combat, SMGs and grenades prevail, but armies are not made for continuous close combat.

Even then ROOST rifles rule the battlefield once you get to know them.
 
Upvote 0
#6
K.Johansen said:
Close range = bigger target
bigger target = easy hit
therefore close range equals easy hit

you need to play and practice more before you make evaluations, i do fine with bolt action in most all situations, which is why i like them more than smgs, which i see have IMHO limited options
Click to expand...

But really only on a one on one encounter. If you have 2 or more enemies approaching, using cover that bolt action is gonna make it hard to survive, unless you have a teamate or two giving cover.

On many a map I have seen an excellent rifleman old off 3 or 4 opponents because they came at him one at a time. But as soon as they attacked en masse, that rifle man could only get 1 maybe 2 of them.
 
Upvote 0
#7
My Apology for making evaluations

My Apology for making evaluations

"you need to play and practice more before you make evaluations, i do fine with bolt action in most all situations, which is why i like them more than smgs, which i see have IMHO limited options"

My apology, I will try to practice harder.

I was actually trying to make a couple points.

1. Infantry fights as a small unit, not as a bunch of individuals - and the game is realistic in this fashion and you pay for fighting alone.

The squad is the foundation for infantry formations. Just as they fought combined arms with tanks, artillery, and infantry working together, so too , a squad was meant to fight with the full compliment of weapons in the squad. The characteristics of each of the weapons in the squad complimented each other. I strayed from my team and found myself in trouble and that is why I withdrew to find my team. A team fighting together with several bolt action rifles, a few SMG, and maybe even a MG34 can put down more firepower than a lone soldier - me with a single bolt action rifle.

I do not rush into the places alone as an individual as a matter of practice, but try to move with the team. But it is hard to operate under team and squad leadership in this game. You spawn, you know the objectives, but you do not know the plan of attack and there are many ways to attack an objective. So you move off and sometimes find yourself alone. That is why it would be nice for this game to have a better squad command and control system like the tools used in Brothers in Arms game - another thread discussion. Objectives do help offer some focus, but as I said, there are many ways to take an objective and folks go off in different directions and that is how I ended up seperated and alone with my bolt action rifle facing six Russians. It is not how a squad operated in combat. The team and squad fought together and was designed and armed accordingly to do so. If you found yourself alone it would not have been by choice. The game makes that clear, even if it does not really provide the tools for effective team and squad control. But I bet you would have killed every one of them six Russkies with your bolt action rifle :)


2. Amazed the Germans used the bolt action for so long.

If bolt actions are so wonderful, why did the Germans eventually field a semi auto rifle themselves and why do you not see any bolt action rifles in any modern Armies other than in role of sniper? Argument to keep producing bolt action rifles in German Army I bet was likely similar to the argument in the Civil War on use of repeating rifles. Spencer Repeating rifles were not bought and issued by the War Department because they felt troops would waste ammunition and would be hard to keep them resupplied. So the Federal Armies used muzzle loaders when they could have had Spencers. But am not an expert on German armaments, so do not know for sure why it took so long to replace the bolt action rifles.

Bottom line, offer any infantry soldier in the field other than a sniper an option for a bolt action rifle or a semi auto rifle, they will take the semi auto rifle. So my second point was to really find out why indeed did the Germans used the bolt action for so long. I bet it was a beuaracratic decision. Or cost or complicated manufacturing? Then again, Germans also continued to use horse drawn artillery.
 
Upvote 0
#8
Soldiers did not choose, semi-auto or bolt. They are GIVEN a semi-auto or bolt action rifle. And the Germans could not afford to produce enough semi's to supply their troops effectively; that, and the G43 was a 1943 rifle; for the first four years of the war, the Germans did not have an effective semi-automatic rifle, and by the time 1943 rolled around, they were definitely getting low on resources and manpower.
 
Upvote 0
#9
Both Germans and Russians made carbine versions of their main rifles.
The Germans with the Kar 98 K (for "Karabiner Kurz") next to the Gewehr 98, and the Russians with the M38 and M44 carbine versions of the M-91/30.

Semi auto rifles were still in their infancy. The Germans for example had a lot of problems with the Gew 41 and later Gew 43.

EDIT:
The Japanese had a carbine version of the Arisaka model 38 and later the Arisaka 44 appeared, which, on the side, had an attached bajonet just like the Nagant M44.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
#10
Vonreuter said:
first assault rifles (using short SMG ammunition)
Click to expand...
Stg44 was actually using new 7.92x33mm (7.92mm Kurz) which was rifle caliber.


Vonreuter said:
The German rifleman's main job was ... and carry ammunition for the squad's MGs
Click to expand...
Lol, not quite.

Vonreuter said:
Ever wondered why the Kar98k used exactly the same ammunition as the MG34 and MG42? Uh huh, now you know.
Click to expand...
Except 7.92x57 mm Mauser was introduced in 1893, originally used by Spanish military but quickly adopted by other countries' armies. Kar (Mauser Gew. 98 - original model 1898 Mauser rifle) was introduced in 1898 using 7.92x57 Mauser, good few decades earlier than MG34 was even thought of.

Using same caliber ammunition in different weapons is mainly for cost and production resons, added side benefit is that ammunition is interchangeable. Had the 7.92x57 been bad compromise for MG ammunition, or for example 7.92x33 been better suited, they would have not chosen it.
 
Upvote 0
#11
Stg44 was actually using new 7.92x33mm (7.92mm Kurz) which was rifle caliber.
Click to expand...
Indeed, rifle caliber but shorter than modern assault rifles. That was why it was not an SMG, but an assault Rifle, after all. However, nowadays it would be hard to classify it as an assault rifle. A 7.92x33 round was an intermediate between a 7.92x57 (Kar98k) and a 9x19 (MP40) round. The Russian PPSh used a 7.62x25, so it can safely be said that the 7,92x33 Kurz was roughly of SMG size. It was originally called an MP (Machine Pistol, i.e. SMG), but Hitler later named it to Sturmgewehr (Assault Rifle).

Of course the MGs were made later on. The Karabiner was a shortened version of the WWI 1898 rifle and the MGs were made in the 30s and 40s. But they were designed to use the same 7,92x57 ammo. Whether the egg or the chicken came first does not eradicate the fact that the MG was the core of the squad, and it was the most valuable asset.

Here's a good article on how a German rifle squad functioned:
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/Tactics/Formations/rifle_squad.htm
 
Upvote 0
#12
Vonreuter said:
Whether the egg or the chicken came first does not eradicate the fact that the MG was the core of the squad, and it was the most valuable asset.
Click to expand...
No it doesn't, but it does make huge difference when you are implying that Kar98 and its ammunition was designed around MG34 giving an impression that the ammunition type was solely chosen so that riflemen could supply their MGs from their personal ammo.

Vonreuter said:
It was originally called an MP (Machine Pistol, i.e. SMG), but Hitler later named it to Sturmgewehr (Assault Rifle).
Click to expand...
You do know that it was changed to 'MP' to disguise it, not because army was considering it to be one. The plans were originally presenetd to Hitler and Stg was designated as Machinenkarabiner 42. Because of infighting and Hitler's personal preferences, he cancelled all new weapons projects.

Wehrmacht however liked the new design and continued its development in secrecy, using Maschinepistole 43 designation to hide its true nature. When Hitler asked to see the gun, he was always shown the prototypes which reminded of submachine guns although there was never a plan to produce them.

When he finally found out truth about the project and saw the real gun, he ordered the project to be stopped but after positive reports from field tests and combat and especially because troops were asking for them, he had to allow it to continue.

The "SturmGevehr" was then chosen for propaganda reasons at the time Germany was already losing the war quickly.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
#13
No it doesn't, but it does make huge difference when you are implying that Kar98 and its ammunition was designed around MG34 giving an impression that the ammunition type was solely chosen so that riflemen could supply their MGs from their personal ammo.
Click to expand...

Oh but I never was implying that. I was fully aware that the Kar98k was a far older weapon than either of the MGs.

As to the name of the Sturmgewehr (literally "storm rifle" or "assault rifle"), it was the very first weapon ever to be called assault rifle... So it can be that they thought of it as an intermediate between a fully automatic rifle and an SMG, an SMG that operates at rifle range. After that, the name caught, and it has been used ever since.
 
Upvote 0
#14
Vonreuter said:
Ever wondered why the Kar98k used exactly the same ammunition as the MG34 and MG42? Uh huh, now you know.
...
Oh but I never was implying that. I was fully aware that the Kar98k was a far older weapon than either of the MGs.
Click to expand...
Looks pretty much like that ;)

Vonreuter said:
So it can be that they thought of it as an intermediate between a fully automatic rifle and an SMG, an SMG that operates at rifle range. After that, the name caught, and it has been used ever since.
Click to expand...

There's a fascinating story somehwere about how the Sturmgewehr came to when Hitler decided that calling it Maschinepistole 44 (name used from the original fake project) wasn't 'scary' and 'morale boosting' enough, basically they knew it was new type of rifle and word 'assault' in it was to indicate that war was far from over and new assault phase was just around the corner. It was many, many moons ago though and I can't even remember if I read the story from a book or web :(
 
Upvote 0
#15
Vonreuter said:
Ever wondered why the Kar98k used exactly the same ammunition as the MG34 and MG42? Uh huh, now you know.
Click to expand...
The british Vickers, Bren and Lee Enfield all used the same .303 round, but this has hardly anything to do with a combat situation. In the field, a rifleman never passed his stripper clips to the mg'er. Its simply a matter of production lines and easier logistics.
 
Upvote 0
#18
Vonreuter said:
Indeed, rifle caliber but shorter than modern assault rifles. That was why it was not an SMG, but an assault Rifle, after all. However, nowadays it would be hard to classify it as an assault rifle. A 7.92x33 round was an intermediate between a 7.92x57 (Kar98k) and a 9x19 (MP40) round. The Russian PPSh used a 7.62x25, so it can safely be said that the 7,92x33 Kurz was roughly of SMG size. It was originally called an MP (Machine Pistol, i.e. SMG), but Hitler later named it to Sturmgewehr (Assault Rifle).

Of course the MGs were made later on. The Karabiner was a shortened version of the WWI 1898 rifle and the MGs were made in the 30s and 40s. But they were designed to use the same 7,92x57 ammo. Whether the egg or the chicken came first does not eradicate the fact that the MG was the core of the squad, and it was the most valuable asset.

Here's a good article on how a German rifle squad functioned:
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/Tactics/Formations/rifle_squad.htm
Click to expand...

Yeah, the StG44 used a revolutionary concept that's been adopted by basically all modern combat arms: intermediate-sized ammo. The M1 Carbine is another example of it. If you compare the 8mm Kurz's 33mm case length with the 39mm case length of the AK47 (and the AK74, for that matter), 6mm of case length isn't that much of a difference. It's even less of a difference since the 8mm Kurz was a fatter case.

By all modern measures, the biggest thing that would date the StG44 in terms of assault rifles is the huge 8mm size (compared to modern assault rifles that are in the 5.4mm to 5.8mm range. I'm not counting the AK47 as modern, since it's coming up on 60 years old, and has been replaced by other rifles in Russia and China. Pretty much the only -47 users are 3rd-world nations.)

Someone mentioned bolt action rifles being sniper-only now.. Even that's going away. Marksmen in the ex-Soviet Union use the SVD, China's got the new type-88, and the US is issuing rifles like the SPR, though the M14-based marksman rifles are still big. The bolties are dying off.
 
Upvote 0
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back
Jump to latest Follow Reply
Jump to latest Follow Reply
Community News
Forums
Merch
Menu