Pps43>ppsh41>ppd40

[Shepherd]

I usually go with the '41 because I like its intimidating sound and if you find a good spot it's better than the Degtyarev. Furthermore it's not that hard to control after you know how to shoot it.

 

[Mikhail Kalashnikov]

Uh, I didn't mean it that way. The STG44 was a great weapon, the first of its kind, revolutionary, etc... imagine if he had never put it into production? The ak47 wouldn't exist, etc etc.

nvm,forget i said anything

 

[Recon]

The weapon was first known as the MKb42 which stood for machine-carbine but because Hitler seemed to only care about SMGs the improved version was renamed the MP43. The final version was designated MP44 but that was later changed to STG44 when Hitler finally approved of it.

 

[toMra]

Also, the STG-44 was not the first Assault rifle, just the first to be called such, quite a few semi-auto rifles before it can arguably be called AR's as they use a scaled down rifle bullet, but some argue they dont qualify as they wont fire full-auto, but one did, and also used a detachable box-magazine, the Avtomat-Fedorova, fiering the Japanese 6.5mm Arisaka round, was developed allready in 1910, and saw service with the Russian army from 1916 to 1925.

The Avtomat-Fedorova used the Japanese 6.5x50SR Arisaka round, which is not a scaled down rifle round. So i argue that the Fedorova does not qualify as a Assault Rifle.

 

[Grobut]

The Avtomat-Fedorova used the Japanese 6.5x50SR Arisaka round, which is not a scaled down rifle round. So i argue that the Fedorova does not qualify as a Assault Rifle.

Thats pretty much the crux of the matter, what is an AR? i've seen people debate the definitions till they where blue in the head.

Personally, i'd say the Arisaka round does qualify, it was afterall an early attempt at a smaller low-recoil round, at a time where standard rifle rounds where quite large, but others will argue that the Ariska was just not small enough.. to me though, thats just splitting hairs.

 

[Moe_Rahn]

The Avtomat-Fedorova used the Japanese 6.5x50SR Arisaka round, which is not a scaled down rifle round. So i argue that the Fedorova does not qualify as a Assault Rifle.

According to the world.guns.ru Assault Rifles section intro (unfortunately, the Avtomat-Federova doesn't have its own article yet) Federov did plan for it to use an intermediate cartridge, and even designed a new 6.5mm round for it, but changed the design to fit the more common Japanese 6.5mm Arisaka round.

The history of the concept of the assault rifle started in the early 1910's, when the famous Russian armorer, col. Fedorov designed a small-bore selective-fire rifle with detachable box magazine. Initially, Fedorow designed a brand new small-caliber 6.5mm cartridge for his rifle, but, due to WW1, switched to the Japanese 6.5mm Arisaka load, which was less powerful than the Russian 7.62x54R and available in quantity. This rifle was aquired by the Russian army in small numbers in 1916 and served (in very limited quantities though) with the Russian and Soviet (Red) Army up to 1925. While the design of the selective-fire rifle was not unique for that time, the concept of the "lightened" cartridge, more suitable for full-auto fire, was new. Also, col.Fedorov invented the idea of infantry weapons families (assault rifle, light machinegun, medium machinegun, vehicle and/or aircraft mounted MGs) based on the same actions and receivers.

 

[KrazyKraut]

Not really, the Russian army had allready decided their next weapon should fire the 7.62x39mm (they where experimenting with it at the end of the war, Siminov's SKS and Degtyarev's RPD used it before the AK), so Kalashnikov had no choice but to use that round.

It is, however, likely that the Russians decided they should go that route because of the STG, im not sure, i haven't read much about how that decition came to be.

The M43 cartridge is a direct result of the lessons learned by the Russians from the MKb 42's. Even Russians finally start to admit that (not Kalashnikov himself though)http://news.pravda.ru/science/2003/08/02/52996.html. They did exactly what the Germans did: Cut down their existing rifle round to produce a new intermediate cartridge of the same calibre to be more cost effective. Neither the Germans nor the Russians thought of their individual solutions (7.92x33 and 7.62x28) as ideal by the way. Interestingly both beleived a dimension of around 7x40mm to be perfect, but both sought to retain as much of their existing production equipment as possible.

And as mentioned the Arisaka doesn't really classify as an intermediate cartridge... at least not in my eyes.

In any case, experiment with intermediate cartridges and according semi-auto rifles were made by many countries in the early 20th century: Russia, Germany, the USA... just to name a few.

What makes an assault rifle and assualt rifle? Lots of room for debate. But still the StG44 would be the most valid winner of being the first. Like Schumpeter says: There's no innovation without exploitation, and the Germans most certainly were the first to really make use of the assault rifle. Also from the mere technological point of view, the MkBs and StG44 are the first to incorporate all of todays assault rifle features: straight lined design with seperated pistol grip and stock, intermediate cartridge, select-fire, closed-bolt operation, closed top receiver.

 

[Cluase Von Wittybrain]

As did the Avtomat-Fedorova.

The STG ran with the fame because:

1) it was the first to be called something new and interesting, and was very successful (the Avtomat-Fedorova suffered from reliabillity problems, preventing it from becoming Russia's main infantry weapon durring WW1, though that was actually planned!).

2) others where more obscure and little known in the west.. hell, how many of you knew there was such a thing as an "Avtomat-Fedorova" untill today?

Umm that is all good a and proper...it may have been the first technically ...but it was not reliable and did not work properly enough to go ahead and build on mass..let alone issue to soldiers

That is why the the STG will be always the first proper AR Because it was designed, Built and distributed on Mass and war tested.

It is only then a a rifle becomes a Rifle....rather that a dream.

but that is not to take credit away from where credit is due....but fundementally on all aspects..the STG was first...Prehaps. minus the concept prehaps and experiments...but a concept could have been in the mind of a Englishman befor ehand anyways.

 

[Fu. Svedberg]

Ok please guys stay on topic and stop the AR discussion in this thread.

If you want to continue discussing this plz go to the history section (I think a thread on this topic allready exists in there), if it does not exist create a new one and discuss it in there.

 

[Theodrake]

Many people say that the PPS was the best smg of the war.

Also, I think the reason the stg44 is considered to be the first AR is becuase it has selective fire capability AND fires shortened rifle rounds.

The M2 was introduced into the US arsenal in 1944. Had a smaller round and selective fire also.

 

[REZ]

Which of the Russian automatics do I prefer?

PaPaSha!


'It's rainin' bullets, hallelujah it's raiiinin' bullets!'

 

[Phoenix-D]

I usually go with the '41 because I like its intimidating sound and if you find a good spot it's better than the Degtyarev. Furthermore it's not that hard to control after you know how to shoot it.

Intimidating sound? It sounds like a full-auto BB gun!

I ussually go for the '43. It seems the most controlable. I've seen various sources online about it- half claim it to be the "best SMG of the war", the half half calls it a piece of crap cobbled together in under-siege workshops so the trapped Soviets could have SOME SMGs.

 

[bobstos]

I always go with the PPSH41 whenever i can. I think that this one is the best for short range combat (this thing works WONDERS holding the apartments in Odessa) and the PPSH40 is almost unfair in the trenches of Basovka. All in all, it is my personal opinion that Russian SMG's were better.

 

[Dheepan]

I was playing with the ppd40 in Basovoka last Saturday during the BFE scrim it was crazy, I racked up 170 some odd points. I didn't even need to Iron sight it, I fired from the hip about 70% of the time and I was getting massively skewed kill ratios like 4 to 1. So i like the 40 the best .

 

[DeusIrae]

i find rifles completely satisfactory for killing people from the hip. nver had the compulsion in that map to use the PPd to rack up the trench kills.

 

[Oberst Freitag]

all i know is that im unstoppable in the trenches of Bosavka with a ppd40

 

[MistaCreepy]

Well
Neo-Nazi are we?

Anyways... the stg44 is a beast... I jump for joy when that gun is available... it means theres gonna be alot of dead russians that round.

The PPSH is okay, ive used it a few times, it puts alot of fire out, but the recoil is a bit much for me, as smg's go I prefer the MP40.

 

[Avenger]

If the PPSh had a little less recoil, it would be recognized as the best SMG in the game (hey, where's that video of the guy ripping off a whole drum without the gun moving?). Now normally, I'm a rifle-lover. But if I have to take an SMG, as it is right now, my fave is the PPD.

 

[SingeDebile]

ill admit i too had dissmissed the Pps43, but for most maps i still love the ppsh41.... the amo capacity is simply awsome! Ive massacured entire groups of enemies with it in one pass. Combined with the fact that i dont have to risk a reload when im on the front lines... i simply love it. Also once you develop an eye for hip shooting its actually quite accurate without iron site.

of course it has to do with your style of play, I always play very agressive offense... and most of my team doesnt... so ill unfortunatly find myself usually alone trying to cap flags (which works surprisingly but agonizgly slowly)... i basically need the firepower to deal with 3-4 targets either at once or in quick succession (no time for reload).

maybe when there is more teamwork ill be able to use the Pps43 more often... then just on the wide open maps.

 

[Markov]

The 43 is a very simple, but deadly SMG. Accurate, fair rate of fire and ammunition, it's a combination of everything good in terms of an SMG. However, I still love the PPSh just because there's nothing like scaring away a whole entire front of advancing Germans with a drum-mag, high-rate of fire SMG.