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T60 is getting on my nerves

Mr Truman (lol), what you are failing to realize is that you shouldn't have to angle the front plate of the Mk. III at all against the T-60. Even from a dead-on, 90 degree hit, the 20mm shot simply cannot penetrate that much plate.


What you describe is actually the main problem with the armor model, in my opinion. It all seems to be about deflection angle. The only way people live is by having the magic angle that bounces all shots. If this angle doesn't exist, shots penetrate even though in real life they would not have enough power. This also means any vehicle with sloped armor (like the SU-76) has unrealistic resistance to large caliber shots, simply because angle is present.


The devs need to:

1. Examine the armor angling and tone this factor down to realistic levels.

2. Stop allowing weapons that were uncapable of penetrating certain plate thickness from doing damage.

3. Partial pentrations need to be taken into account. Just because a 14.5mm round can pentrate the side of a Panzer IV doesn't mean it will do any appreciable damage.

Max penetration of PTRD is 34mm at 100m, so if you have a Panzer IV with 30mm side armor, the round is just barely penetrating. In fact, the four excess milimeters over 30 equals 13.33% of the total thickness of plate, which is less than the 15% generally needed to cause more active spalling (CMBB takes this into consideration).

So what you would really have is a partial penetration that would do little damage. In CMBB, Panzer IVs can take sometimes like 15 such penetrations without any damage to equipment of crew, but in ROOST, a side penetration with the PTRD usually means the tank blows up.

4. Finally, take into account the "normalizing" effects of blunt-nosed shot. Certain kinds of APBC and APCBC had blunt noses under the BC that were much less prone to glance off angled plate. The shape allowed them to "grip" into face-hardened, angled plate better than standard AP shot.
 
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Jack said:
You probably experienced the "belly plate exploit," where a hand grenade can damage teh tank and kill crew so long as it is thrown under the tank. Just another thing in the armor system that needs to be fixed.
I've heard accounts of P-51 Mustangs skipping its 50cal (12.7mm) rounds off the ground and into the underside of tanks and disabling them.
 
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Sichartshofen said:
Sounds like a load of bull**** to me.

The P-47 carried eight .50 cal. machine guns with 400 rounds per gun, and it proved "particularly successful" against transports. The machine guns occasionally even caused casualties to tanks and tank crews. The .50 cal. armor-piercing bullets often penetrated the underside of vehicles after ricocheting off the road, or penetrated the exhaust system of the tanks, ricocheting around the interior of the armored hull, killing or wounding the crew and sometimes igniting the fuel supply or detonating ammunition storage. This seemed surprising at first, given the typically heavy armor of German tanks. Yet Maj. Gen. J. Lawton "Lightning Joe" Collins, Commander of First Army's VII Corps, was impressed enough to mention to Quesada the success that P-47s had strafing tanks with .50 cal. machine gun fire.


taken from:http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-vetscor/1417249/posts
 
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Jack said:
Mr Truman (lol), what you are failing to realize is that you shouldn't have to angle the front plate of the Mk. III at all against the T-60. Even from a dead-on, 90 degree hit, the 20mm shot simply cannot penetrate that much plate.

I'm not failing to realize anything. I know exactly what you are saying, I'm just implying that if you use the Pz III within the games rules (i.e. angle the armor) , it doesn't get "owned" in the map and those 20mm shells bounce off all day with no "accumulating HP damage". I'm not spouting the simulation accuracy of the game, which, as far as armor goes, needs a lot of work.
 
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Harry S. Truman said:
I'm not failing to realize anything. I know exactly what you are saying, I'm just implying that if you use the Pz III within the games rules (i.e. angle the armor) , it doesn't get "owned" in the map and those 20mm shells bounce off all day with no "accumulating HP damage". I'm not spouting the simulation accuracy of the game, which, as far as armor goes, needs a lot of work.
problem is is that it has to be angled exactly at 30* everytime...off a little bit and you're toast...so far angling has only worked once for me in Mk III...i've angled other times to what should have been 30* (of by a few degrees i guess)and got knocked out in no time.

Rarely do the 20mm rounds plink off
 
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Harry S. Truman said:
I'm not failing to realize anything. I know exactly what you are saying, I'm just implying that if you use the Pz III within the games rules (i.e. angle the armor) , it doesn't get "owned" in the map and those 20mm shells bounce off all day with no "accumulating HP damage". I'm not spouting the simulation accuracy of the game, which, as far as armor goes, needs a lot of work.

Ok I got you.


BTW I loaded up CMBB with 9 T-60s (1942 model) against 3 Panzer III Js. the other night. I played as the Germans.


I was making regular penetrations of all parts of the T-60 at 2000 meters, while all the 20mm rounds were harmlessly bouncing off. I only suffered one casulaty when the commander of one tank got shot out of his cupola, but that was it.

Every 50mm shot from the L/60 gun penetrated, just one instance where a shot of mine richocheted off the side of the T-60 turret at longer range.

The map ended with all 9 T-60s either knocked out or abandoned (with one brew up), and no harm whatsoever to the Mk III Js.
 
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EvilAmericanMan said:
This game sounds interesting, what is CMBB exactly?

it's AWESOME. I am new to it, and thanks to Jack's recommendation, I played the demo, and then paid for the retail via Direct-to-Drive (D2D) (It's like steam, etc.).

the CMBB guys do armor perfect. see: http://www.battlefront.com/products/cmbb/cmbb.html

I am playing it on all my non-RO:O times. back on topic, Jacks post just above this is EXACTLY how T-60 combat vs. Pz IIIs. It's just the facts. And the armor in the game needs to be changed and fixed. EDIT: CMBB applies the KEY differences in the armor that shows the areas of superiority that the Germans had (optics, crewing, etc).

RO:O could use a nice dose of CMBB tank analysis. A real nice dose. In fact, I'd like to throw the 2 games into a blender, and make an Uber game. :D
 
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CMBB is Combat Mission Barbarossa to Berlin. 3d, slice of time turn based wargame. You basically give orders to all your units at the same time the computer (or other player) does taking as long as you need - then run a minute of the battle in realtime to resolve the turn. It's exceptionally well done and one of the few pure wargames that's held my attention for any period of time.

The T-60's in CMBB are really good anti-infantry - but if any german tanks or even a cannon armed scout car show up they're toast...


As for RO - well I was actually German on Hog the other day - a rare occurance since I always auto-assign :D

Nobody was drving the PZII... so naturally the T-60 driver kept driving right up to the German spawn and alternated running over / MGing spawning infantry....

I figured I'd try the "Belly Plate Exploit" and sure enough... four out of five times... a grenade up under the T-60 killed the jerk driving.

So my advice to the PZII drivers.... switch to HE and just shoot under the T60 :p
 
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Yeap, a PTRD on Barashka should not penetrate a PzIV from the front but it does. T34's eat the PzIV's for breakfast at any range.

SU76 eat's Tigars, I just think the Armour system on RO is FUBAR ATM.

As for Airpower having any effect on Armour, studies in Normandy after WW2 found that the only real effect aircraft had on German Tanks were phsycological effects on the tanking crews. Most of the Tanks claimed to Airpower were found to be functional and just abandoned by their crews. As for P51 .50 Cal bullets penetrating, total BS.

Wishful thinking on the Pilots behalf. Now, on Loco's, a different matter and many an allied pilot had fun shooting up German Trains. :)
 
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Heinz said:
it's AWESOME. I am new to it, and thanks to Jack's recommendation, I played the demo, and then paid for the retail via Direct-to-Drive (D2D) (It's like steam, etc.).

the CMBB guys do armor perfect. see: http://www.battlefront.com/products/cmbb/cmbb.html

I am playing it on all my non-RO:O times. back on topic, Jacks post just above this is EXACTLY how T-60 combat vs. Pz IIIs. It's just the facts. And the armor in the game needs to be changed and fixed. EDIT: CMBB applies the KEY differences in the armor that shows the areas of superiority that the Germans had (optics, crewing, etc).

RO:O could use a nice dose of CMBB tank analysis. A real nice dose. In fact, I'd like to throw the 2 games into a blender, and make an Uber game. :D

It is a very damn good game. The first one was good too.
 
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T60 model is great from over 150m. Seems quite right at those longer ranges.
But any panzer engaged with a T60 at closer ranges doesn't stand a chance in hell if they don't kill the T60 with the first shot. T60 is far too powerful at closer ranges. No panzer stands a chance with those rapid fire 20mm shells penetrating their armor with every shot. Instant death.

Very cool and realistic feeling from afar, but way too powerful at closer ranges.
 
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You know, when i hear axis players on the T-60, its allways "that thing is a monster!", but i have met just as many allied players who will tell you "i wont bother with it, its useless!".


Ohh, and on the .50 cal aircraft guns killing German Panzers.. the average allied plane carried 6 or 8 of thouse things, with enough rounds fired at tanks over a couple of years, then yeah, statistics say you will get a few lucky kills, and i have no doubt some where made, but dont think for a second that this was common place, or that .50 cal HMG's are an adequate anti-tank weapon ;)
 
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Well yeah. I mean think about a .50 cal BMG round fired from a P47/51.


First it will lose energy travel the distance from the aircraft to the road.

Then the energy will be mostly absorbed by the ground. If the bullet impacts at such an angle it may richochet upwards towards the belly plate.


BUT, the bullet will be heavily deformed from the road impact, and more than likely have actually broke apart into several pieces.

Also, teh angle of ricochet will be roughly equal to teh angle it hit the ground at, so considering this would have to be a shallow angle to make it under the tank in the first place, the richet will be a shallow angle.


So, how can a deformed bullet, with most of its energy expended, impacting 25mm of plate at an angle expect to penetrate, let alone do any damage? A .50 cal BMG round will not penetrate the belly plate of a Tiger fired at right angles and at close range...how would a ricochet at longer range do it? It's BS.



Pilots that strafed Tigers talked about how they could often explode the fuel trailers the Tanks would sometimes tow, and if you did this, I imagine you may get the crew bailing out to address the issue. Also bear in mind many German tankers may not have been made of stern stuff at this point in the war, and if they were being repeatedly strafed out in the open, might choose to abandon their vehicle before more serious ordnance hit them.

This could give the illusion that tankers were leaving a "killed" vehicle. From every source though, it is clear that rockets and bombs were needed to take out heavy tanks, and no gun firing less than 20mm ammunition.
 
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Sort of back on the original topic, I think AP round deflection is a little too frequent. Rounds were typically measured for penetration at 30degrees slope - to me this suggests that glances were very uncommon at this or lower angles. At the moment it seems glances are common at any angle up to and including 90 degrees. I've had many occasions where I've fired an 85mm or even 122mm round into the flank of a PzIV at very close range and had it either bounce or do no damage. I'm open to correction but surely this is a bit underpowered?

It's not a huge problem since both sides' tanks suffer from this, but it does rather spoil the joy of achieving that perfect flank shot when it hits but does no damage (or just causes a bit of engine smoking).

Regards
33
 
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I'm no tank expert but I do know that most tanks had thin top and bottom armor because they were designed primarily to survive ground warfare and things comming at them horizontally and not vertically (aircraft). I found these stats on the Panther: Turret Top / Bottom: 16mm
Upper Hull Top / Bottom: 16mm
Lower Hull Bottom: 16mm

16millimeters might be vulnerable to 12.7mm (50 cal) bullets if enough of them were fired. Also the older Panzers had even thinner top and bottom armor than 16mm. The Tiger I'm not sure but it's probably thicker than the Panthers.
 
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