If germany had never even dealt with Russia, they would have certainly drove us Ami's out of Europe. It would have been just a matter of time. They sent all of their homeland troops to russia.
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How long could germany had lasted, without the blunders?
- Thread starter Ghad
- Start date
Well, after reading this entire thread all I can say is that hindsight is 20-20.
In my humble oppinion, there is no single blunder that caused/made the outcome of WWII.
Infact I think that for every single blunder on axis side there where one made on the allied.
But one thing I think contributed in the fall of the axis empire was the fact that little Finland beat Soviet in the winter war, thereby convincing both axis and western countries that the soviet army really was no good.
A fatal error it turned out to be.
In my humble oppinion, there is no single blunder that caused/made the outcome of WWII.
Infact I think that for every single blunder on axis side there where one made on the allied.
But one thing I think contributed in the fall of the axis empire was the fact that little Finland beat Soviet in the winter war, thereby convincing both axis and western countries that the soviet army really was no good.
A fatal error it turned out to be.
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My favorites are,
"What if Spain joined the war on Germany's side?"
"What if Sweden joined the war on Germany's side?"
"What if Portugal joined the war on Germany's side?"
"What if all three joined the war on Germany's side?"
Sweden after all felt threatened by the Allies and their fears were confirmed through German intelligence -- hell, the Allies at least even considered invading them. As for Spain, well, the German cause was popular in Spain, hence the formation and success of the Blue Division. Besides, Spain owed Germany and Italy for their contributions to the Spanish Civil War. Portugal was sympathetic with Hitler according to what I've read, and their government had fascist leanings, 'sent them supplies and let Germany use some of their territory as airbases.
Even if it wouldn't have saved them from the Soviet war machine, it might've prolonged their defeat. Now, if Operation Barbarossa NEVER happened? Well, I think this would've encouraged these powers to take up arms with Germany a bit more. Hell, a lot more.
"What if Spain joined the war on Germany's side?"
"What if Sweden joined the war on Germany's side?"
"What if Portugal joined the war on Germany's side?"
"What if all three joined the war on Germany's side?"
Sweden after all felt threatened by the Allies and their fears were confirmed through German intelligence -- hell, the Allies at least even considered invading them. As for Spain, well, the German cause was popular in Spain, hence the formation and success of the Blue Division. Besides, Spain owed Germany and Italy for their contributions to the Spanish Civil War. Portugal was sympathetic with Hitler according to what I've read, and their government had fascist leanings, 'sent them supplies and let Germany use some of their territory as airbases.
Even if it wouldn't have saved them from the Soviet war machine, it might've prolonged their defeat. Now, if Operation Barbarossa NEVER happened? Well, I think this would've encouraged these powers to take up arms with Germany a bit more. Hell, a lot more.
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Svedsen, could you answer my questions, please?
1. How did NKVD control soviet soldiers in this case ("rape is a must")?
2. What happened to soldiers who did not rape any woman?
3. Let's say, Stalin gives an order to rape every woman in Berlin. This way, every soldier, who fought in this area, should know about it, not only your greatgrandfather, agree? So why they don't? And ok, what's up with "he could have easily hidden hundreds of orders like that" argument? I mean, he made an order and hid it? What for? WTF, where's your logic?
1. How did NKVD control soviet soldiers in this case ("rape is a must")?
2. What happened to soldiers who did not rape any woman?
3. Let's say, Stalin gives an order to rape every woman in Berlin. This way, every soldier, who fought in this area, should know about it, not only your greatgrandfather, agree? So why they don't? And ok, what's up with "he could have easily hidden hundreds of orders like that" argument? I mean, he made an order and hid it? What for? WTF, where's your logic?
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In the 1970's or ealerier cant remember the date, some Historians with ex German and British carried out a war game experiment thing about Operation Sea Lion, and the Germnas got alot of south eastern England but then they couldnt brake through the second line of defence ( the Winston Line i think), and eventually all of the german forces would have been pushed back into the Channel.
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Personally I doubt an order was issued to rape every German female of sexual age, But it was extremely rife & some of the numbers quoted are disturbing to say the least.
My grandfathers sister was raped by several soviet troops as was her friend, both whom subsequently fell pregnant.
My grandfathers sister was raped by several soviet troops as was her friend, both whom subsequently fell pregnant.
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HKslan said:
As did Germany, there was a plan for the 25. Panzers to invade from Norway, it came as close as drilling for it and just waiting for extra vehicles, but then the 25. panzers where ordered to France.
Sweden was equally under threat from both Germany and the allied (perhaps mostly Soviet, which was trying to take Finland and most likely would not stop at that) but managed to stay out of the war.
Even if the Swedish supreme commander of arms wanted to sign up with Germany after Barbarossa started, the politicians said no.
And just to avoid further off-topics on this, the transits of Division Engelbrecht was maybe morally wrong from a point of view after the war, but it was indeed in line with the 5 paragraph of the Haag convention on what is allowed by neutral states.
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War between the Soviet Union and Germany was inevitable. Had Hitler never invaded at all, it would have only been a matter of time before Stalin turned his armies west and did the same thing. The Soviet/German non-aggression pact was, 'I hate you, and you hate me, but we're not going to fight each other until... SURPRISE *****!!!"
Considering national resources, there were just too many Russian tanks and soldiers for Germany to win against the Soviet Union... ever. Speculative/alternate history is interesting though. I read a book once that speculated that if the Confederacy had won the American Civil War, we all would have united sometime in the 1950's anyways against the threat of communism. What if Hitler hadn't made all the bad choices? America had mixed feelings about Germany at the beginning of WWII, and a surprising number of Americans supported Hitler. Had he never taken up the irrational policies of ethnic cleansing and world domination there's a very good chance we would have all (Germany, US, Britain) been good friends united to fight godless, red commies, which was basically the situation in Europe immediately after WWII. After all, Hitler respected both Britain and the US for our similar culture and language.
Has anybody seen the episode on the History channel that discusses a second 'mein kampf', basically another political diary by Hitler? If it is indeed true, his intentions were pretty clear... Germany wouldn't stop fighting until they dominated the world or were destoyed. Germany under Hitler was lose/lose situation.
Considering national resources, there were just too many Russian tanks and soldiers for Germany to win against the Soviet Union... ever. Speculative/alternate history is interesting though. I read a book once that speculated that if the Confederacy had won the American Civil War, we all would have united sometime in the 1950's anyways against the threat of communism. What if Hitler hadn't made all the bad choices? America had mixed feelings about Germany at the beginning of WWII, and a surprising number of Americans supported Hitler. Had he never taken up the irrational policies of ethnic cleansing and world domination there's a very good chance we would have all (Germany, US, Britain) been good friends united to fight godless, red commies, which was basically the situation in Europe immediately after WWII. After all, Hitler respected both Britain and the US for our similar culture and language.
Has anybody seen the episode on the History channel that discusses a second 'mein kampf', basically another political diary by Hitler? If it is indeed true, his intentions were pretty clear... Germany wouldn't stop fighting until they dominated the world or were destoyed. Germany under Hitler was lose/lose situation.
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Another thing to remember is that history is all interconnected. Say Stalingrad was, instead of a major defeat, a spectacular success, you change everything following the events of the battle. Of course, that leads to even more speculation as to what have might happened.
And hey, there's nothing wrong with having more to talk about.
And hey, there's nothing wrong with having more to talk about.
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