Strong Nerf for Medic

[neo-warriors1]

Medic is not coherent indeed. Should be weak and protected by team instead of that hes almost invincible and cheated... Its god medic... He can sniper... Literally destroy an 6p Hans w hémoglobin easily... Probably the most no sense perk ive seen in zombies game. Lol

 

[lucas600l]

For me, the Field Medic Nerf (11/04/23) was good up to a point, because what happens? Most of the tests that people do are not as effective, because they don't have the famous "unforeseen events", so we have the following situations:

- We have random players, and unlike a formed team, random player has a different way of playing, and sometimes they are not as good as their friends.
- Easy maps and difficult maps, I see a lot of people playing on an easy map, almost all the time Spillway, which is a very easy and big map, now what about playing on a more difficult map? Situations will take you by surprise and you could end up getting stuck somewhere, then the rest is history.
- Playing alone and playing online has very different consequences, the amount of Zeds is greater, many people test playing alone that things are calmer there, but when you play online and a huge amount of Zeds comes, this can end up hurting you a lot .

Add all these factors that I mentioned above, and you will have a serious problem in the game, mainly because the tests were done in wide open places and alone, and the video in which they are in an online game, is about a Suicidal game, try doing that in Hell on Earth with Quarter Pound and Scrake chasing, it won't work. I believe that HRG Healthrower and Skill Level 5 are the biggest culprits, the nerf that was done was good, but I think they should at least remain with the speed of the Medic, because we need to infiltrate the places full of Zeds, to heal our friends, only that.

 

[o2xVc3UuXp0NyBihrUnu]

Congrats to everyone in this thread arguing for strong nerfs for medic. See, TWI sometimes listens to reasonable feedback. 1.5 years later, but still.

Great job everyone, I'm proud of you, OnionBubs, CitronVert, MrtPsr and others. Patience and persistence prevailed.

 

[Aleflippy]

For me, the Field Medic Nerf (11/04/23) was good up to a point, because what happens? Most of the tests that people do are not as effective, because they don't have the famous "unforeseen events", so we have the following situations:

- We have random players, and unlike a formed team, random player has a different way of playing, and sometimes they are not as good as their friends.
- Easy maps and difficult maps, I see a lot of people playing on an easy map, almost all the time Spillway, which is a very easy and big map, now what about playing on a more difficult map? Situations will take you by surprise and you could end up getting stuck somewhere, then the rest is history.
- Playing alone and playing online has very different consequences, the amount of Zeds is greater, many people test playing alone that things are calmer there, but when you play online and a huge amount of Zeds comes, this can end up hurting you a lot .

Add all these factors that I mentioned above, and you will have a serious problem in the game, mainly because the tests were done in wide open places and alone, and the video in which they are in an online game, is about a Suicidal game, try doing that in Hell on Earth with Quarter Pound and Scrake chasing, it won't work. I believe that HRG Healthrower and Skill Level 5 are the biggest culprits, the nerf that was done was good, but I think they should at least remain with the speed of the Medic, because we need to infiltrate the places full of Zeds, to heal our friends, only that.

The update isn't even out yet. Chill out.

 

[lucas600l]

The update isn't even out yet. Chill out.

The update just came out and I played, to tell you that some changes are good, like the HRG Healthrower that was very strong, but honestly I didn't feel the need to upgrade it, you know? Because it has become a weapon that only heals, eliminating other Zeds with this weapon is not worth much, much less paying to upgrade it.

About the Skills, I thought they were good, except for the speed, but that's ok, I'm just worried that with these changes, more selfish players will appear, for example the Berserker who already took Nerf and already being a Troll in the match, they become adapted to this change, and the Medic will do the same and they will build "Damage Medic". As the Berserker has less Resistance, the guy was left with a long-distance weapon running across the entire map, result? Map lasted 1 hour on Suicidal.

The feeling I had is that the game just got more boring.

 

[Jiboia_Jin]

I frequently come across with this scenario in 6p hoe games:

- Whole team dies within the first minutes, except the medic.

- Medic runs around for 20 minutes and successfully, solos the rest of the wave.

- Even if it is boss, medic doesn't die into 10 minutes.

- Hemogoblin and hrg incision have high damage for big zeds&bosses. These weapons cause medic to focus on H.V.T. instead of healing.
Especially hemogoblin has nearly higher damage potantial than Rpg-7.

- Noone wants to be waiting for 1 player long time. If your team doesn't have teamplay, you deserve to die altogether.

- Combat medic never needs help, you know medic will easily save himself from big threads. It brokes the synergy.


These problems were relating to combat medic's durability. On the other hand these are also full medic's extremisms;

- Medic gets hrg healthrower and buffs teammates constantly, it makes them tank with random healing left-click fires.

- Existance of op full-medic in the team, makes useless other healer perks (survivalist, support's HM-301, swat's HM-201, commando's 401&501). It is not big problem but it causes to high difficulty changes for this game. If you don't have medic in your team, suicidal mode may be harder than hoe with medic (especially 3p is much harder than 6p due to the control of zed spawn areas&camping chance disadvantage, this is another pair of shoes).

- Most of veterans (1000+ hours) want to new difficulty like abandon all hope&infernal nightmare that is beyond the hoe. The main reason of it, existance of the op medic in this game, imo. Balancing the medic can fix all these issues without new additions.


My suggestions:

- Decreasing ammo pool of hrg healthrower or removing/nerfing healing potential of dart.

- Nerfing hemogoblin's base damage, because it courages medics to focus on big zeds directly. It causes tons of assault medic in this game. This weapon also gets slower all enemies and deal high damage potantial (melts them quickly) even "as a last man standing against Matriarch 6p hoe".

- Medic sniper has 400 base damage in comparison with sharpshooter's railgun has 560 base, it is too much.

- Resillience is also op. Lower percentage values may be better instead of %60.

- or removing passive %10 movement speed may be good with adding extra armor (from 150 to 175-200), because these changes gives error margin to compensate damage taken instead of immortality.

Sounds like a player problem not a class problem.

 

[Jiboia_Jin]

I frequently come across with this scenario in 6p hoe games:

- Whole team dies within the first minutes, except the medic.

- Medic runs around for 20 minutes and successfully, solos the rest of the wave.

- Even if it is boss, medic doesn't die into 10 minutes.

- Hemogoblin and hrg incision have high damage for big zeds&bosses. These weapons cause medic to focus on H.V.T. instead of healing.
Especially hemogoblin has nearly higher damage potantial than Rpg-7.

- Noone wants to be waiting for 1 player long time. If your team doesn't have teamplay, you deserve to die altogether.

- Combat medic never needs help, you know medic will easily save himself from big threads. It brokes the synergy.


These problems were relating to combat medic's durability. On the other hand these are also full medic's extremisms;

- Medic gets hrg healthrower and buffs teammates constantly, it makes them tank with random healing left-click fires.

- Existance of op full-medic in the team, makes useless other healer perks (survivalist, support's HM-301, swat's HM-201, commando's 401&501). It is not big problem but it causes to high difficulty changes for this game. If you don't have medic in your team, suicidal mode may be harder than hoe with medic (especially 3p is much harder than 6p due to the control of zed spawn areas&camping chance disadvantage, this is another pair of shoes).

- Most of veterans (1000+ hours) want to new difficulty like abandon all hope&infernal nightmare that is beyond the hoe. The main reason of it, existance of the op medic in this game, imo. Balancing the medic can fix all these issues without new additions.


My suggestions:

- Decreasing ammo pool of hrg healthrower or removing/nerfing healing potential of dart.

- Nerfing hemogoblin's base damage, because it courages medics to focus on big zeds directly. It causes tons of assault medic in this game. This weapon also gets slower all enemies and deal high damage potantial (melts them quickly) even "as a last man standing against Matriarch 6p hoe".

- Medic sniper has 400 base damage in comparison with sharpshooter's railgun has 560 base, it is too much.

- Resillience is also op. Lower percentage values may be better instead of %60.

- or removing passive %10 movement speed may be good with adding extra armor (from 150 to 175-200), because these changes gives error margin to compensate damage taken instead of immortality.

You gotta think, the medic class is supposed to be the healer, they need to be able to take damage and keep themselves alive. While being able to stay alive easily, they also do the least amount of damage by any class. They do have some good weapons, but those are not good in comparison to other class weapons. Again this is more of a player problem, because I’ve played with good medics, who are constantly healing the team, and if everyone goes down, wouldn’t you want that last player to be able to self sustain? If you don’t want o sit there while they take 10 minutes to beat the level, you can always just leave the game and join a new one. What do you lose from that? If they die, than you start a new game anyway.

 

[Aleflippy]

P

You gotta think, the medic class is supposed to be the healer, they need to be able to take damage and keep themselves alive. While being able to stay alive easily, they also do the least amount of damage by any class. They do have some good weapons, but those are not good in comparison to other class weapons. Again this is more of a player problem, because I’ve played with good medics, who are constantly healing the team, and if everyone goes down, wouldn’t you want that last player to be able to self sustain? If you don’t want o sit there while they take 10 minutes to beat the level, you can always just leave the game and join a new one. What do you lose from that? If they die, than you start a new game anyway.

Please learn some game design.

Healers and support classes in any game of any kind have ALWAYS been designed specifically to be weak so they'll HAVE to stick with their team. Even if they aren't team players, they should be because otherwise they'll get mauled pretty easily. Team Fortress 2's medic is a perfect example of that.

Saying that as the healer you should be able to defend yourself quite well just so you can stay alive for your team is taking the problem backwards. In order to survive, you should stick close to your team and your team should protect you. Why ? Because a dead healer is useless. And a team will fare much better if they stay healthy. Simple as that really.

And that's coming from a healer main, regardless of the game.

 

[OnionBubs]

Aleflippy beat me to the punch on this one, but right now, the Medic's only real weakness compared to other perks is that it has some--and I stress that word--some bad weapons on it. A weakness that can be solved by just not using joke-tier weapons.

The only thing given a partial nerf recently is 1) Medic's ability to sponge damage, which can also be resolved by just not getting hit in the first place, and 2) the Healthrower being not quite as good at mowing down trash Zeds, which was only marginal because with its insane ammo reserve it will still be able to do that given the stat nerfs, it'll just take a bit longer.

It was taken down from "unreasonable" to "slightly more reasonable."

Nothing about being able to heal other players--which is Medic's designated role--was touched in the slightest. The point is to make it less of a "clutch crutch", a design inherently harmful to team-based games, and to ideally egg players into playing that supportive role by making them less viable as solo YOLOs.

Healers and support classes in any kind of any kind have ALWAYS been designed specifically to be weak so they'll HAVE to stick with their team. Even if they aren't team players, they should be because otherwise they'll get mauled pretty easily. Team Fortress 2's medic is a perfect example of that.

This, and then some. I'm sure TWI made the Medic intentionally strong to entice players, but the class is way overtuned by any reasonable metric when compared to other games.

Imagine if the TF2 Medic had triple its base health. Because that was Medic's old damage resistance stats. To the point where most players ignored Symbiotic Health--the thing that gave you all the OP buffs you could give other teammates--because Resistance just gave you insane DR without having to work for it. "Why would I give myself buffs when I could just tank hits?"

Imagine if TF2's medic outran the Scout without using the Quick-Fix. Because that used to be its passive speed boost.

Imagine if Team Fortress 2's medic got a version of the Sniper's rifle that could use Crusader Crossbow darts to heal players and could no-scope hitscan enemy players for most of their health from across the map while inflicting slowdown. If that sounds somewhat familiar, that's because it's literally the HRG Incision.

Imagine if the Medic could self-heal at will while killing other players and also reduce incoming damage from enemy fire. Because that was basically the old Hemoclobber.

Imagine if the Medic got a six-shot revolver that allowed you to heal players with homing versions of the Crusader's Crossbow darts while killing players in a couple of bodyshots or a headshot, and also weakening any player it didn't kill outright. Because that's the current Hemogoblin.

Imagine if the Amputator's AoE healing taunt was ready on command and could also give speed/damage res/attack buffs to the Medic's team, and that he didn't have to stand still to use it, and that he could also use it to damage the enemy team. Because that's the healing grenades, the 501 grenades, and the Healthrower.

Medic started the game with 4 kinds of weapons based off a modular system, and those were plenty good; any further medic-ing than that was addressed by "stop getting hit so much." Which was fair because back in the earliest days of the class it used to give armor with darts. If you were to travel back in time to the major boards/forums in 2016 and tell players back then that Medic was getting a healing Railgun that inflicted Berserker's EMP, they might suggest you were trolling. If only they knew!

Much like the Berserker nerfs, the main thing this did was bring to the surface the sheer amount of people who play Medic because of how insanely forgiving and OP it is more than actually being useful to the team (which they sometimes are, but only incidentally).

Medic is simultaneously an incredibly strong team support player, a fairly strong gunfighter, and one of the two best "clutch crutch" classes in the game. Which "clutch" characters are, by definition; due to how this game gets easier as players die off, the supposed-to-be-weak healer class gets even stronger as other players are eliminated from the game--the very thing they are supposed to avoid!

if everyone goes down, wouldn’t you want that last player to be able to self sustain?

By the time you hit the last of 4 difficulties, two of which are labeled "harder than Hard," no. Clutches are supposed to be the exception rather than the norm because a team that fails to live as a team should die as a team. And having classes dedicated to averting that principle means that more self-interested players will be drawn to that playstyle by virtue of them being selfish perks, which is bad design; it reinforces a circular problem of the Medic picking the "I don't trust my team" perks, which means the players don't trust the Medic because they're playing selfishly, and so forth.

And clutch plays are the exception where other perks are considered. If you asked how many players are clutching lategame waves with Commando compared to Zerk or Medic, I guarantee you'd get a far lower number because Commando is slow and somewhat squishy compared to other options. You cannot run away from the threat of death because on HoE Zeds will straight-up catch and kill you for trying; the last man standing scenario becomes a DPS race and is far more likely to end up in a wipe unless the remaining enemies were already more manageable to begin with, and the wipe will come far more quickly if and when that happens because the player can't drag it out.

When you have characters with self-healing to erase mistakes, speed to avoid taking hits, and tankiness that means getting hit is less of a punishment anyway, the threat of the clutch failing is basically non-existent because the player is at no threat of dying; it's that the foregone conclusion of them winning (after all the others have died, on the hardest difficulty) takes forever to pull off. By that point, everyone's weapons have probably despawned and everyone's lost most of their money, so why bother?

I'm just worried that with these changes, more selfish players will appear

Voting to kick is always a viable tool if they continue to insist on being disruptive.

 

[Jiboia_Jin]

Aleflippy beat me to the punch on this one, but right now, the Medic's only real weakness compared to other perks is that it has some--and I stress that word--some bad weapons on it. A weakness that can be solved by just not using joke-tier weapons.

The only thing given a partial nerf recently is 1) Medic's ability to sponge damage, which can also be resolved by just not getting hit in the first place, and 2) the Healthrower being not quite as good at mowing down trash Zeds, which was only marginal because with its insane ammo reserve it will still be able to do that given the stat nerfs, it'll just take a bit longer.

It was taken down from "unreasonable" to "slightly more reasonable."

Nothing about being able to heal other players--which is Medic's designated role--was touched in the slightest. The point is to make it less of a "clutch crutch", a design inherently harmful to team-based games, and to ideally egg players into playing that supportive role by making them less viable as solo YOLOs.


This, and then some. I'm sure TWI made the Medic intentionally strong to entice players, but the class is way overtuned by any reasonable metric when compared to other games.

Imagine if the TF2 Medic had triple its base health. Because that was Medic's old damage resistance stats. To the point where most players ignored Symbiotic Health--the thing that gave you all the OP buffs you could give other teammates--because Resistance just gave you insane DR without having to work for it. "Why would I give myself buffs when I could just tank hits?"

Imagine if TF2's medic outran the Scout without using the Quick-Fix. Because that used to be its passive speed boost.

Imagine if Team Fortress 2's medic got a version of the Sniper's rifle that could use Crusader Crossbow darts to heal players and could no-scope hitscan enemy players for most of their health from across the map while inflicting slowdown. If that sounds somewhat familiar, that's because it's literally the HRG Incision.

Imagine if the Medic could self-heal at will while killing other players and also reduce incoming damage from enemy fire. Because that was basically the old Hemoclobber.

Imagine if the Medic got a six-shot revolver that allowed you to heal players with homing versions of the Crusader's Crossbow darts while killing players in a couple of bodyshots or a headshot, and also weakening any player it didn't kill outright. Because that's the current Hemogoblin.

Imagine if the Amputator's AoE healing taunt was ready on command and could also give speed/damage res/attack buffs to the Medic's team, and that he didn't have to stand still to use it, and that he could also use it to damage the enemy team. Because that's the healing grenades, the 501 grenades, and the Healthrower.

Medic started the game with 4 kinds of weapons based off a modular system, and those were plenty good; any further medic-ing than that was addressed by "stop getting hit so much." Which was fair because back in the earliest days of the class it used to give armor with darts. If you were to travel back in time to the major boards/forums in 2016 and tell players back then that Medic was getting a healing Railgun that inflicted Berserker's EMP, they might suggest you were trolling. If only they knew!

Much like the Berserker nerfs, the main thing this did was bring to the surface the sheer amount of people who play Medic because of how insanely forgiving and OP it is more than actually being useful to the team (which they sometimes are, but only incidentally).

Medic is simultaneously an incredibly strong team support player, a fairly strong gunfighter, and one of the two best "clutch crutch" classes in the game. Which "clutch" characters are, by definition; due to how this game gets easier as players die off, the supposed-to-be-weak healer class gets even stronger as other players are eliminated from the game--the very thing they are supposed to avoid!


By the time you hit the last of 4 difficulties, two of which are labeled "harder than Hard," no. Clutches are supposed to be the exception rather than the norm because a team that fails to live as a team should die as a team. And having classes dedicated to averting that principle means that more self-interested players will be drawn to that playstyle by virtue of them being selfish perks, which is bad design; it reinforces a circular problem of the Medic picking the "I don't trust my team" perks, which means the players don't trust the Medic because they're playing selfishly, and so forth.

And clutch plays are the exception where other perks are considered. If you asked how many players are clutching lategame waves with Commando compared to Zerk or Medic, I guarantee you'd get a far lower number because Commando is slow and somewhat squishy compared to other options. You cannot run away from the threat of death because on HoE Zeds will straight-up catch and kill you for trying; the last man standing scenario becomes a DPS race and is far more likely to end up in a wipe unless the remaining enemies were already more manageable to begin with, and the wipe will come far more quickly if and when that happens because the player can't drag it out.

When you have characters with self-healing to erase mistakes, speed to avoid taking hits, and tankiness that means getting hit is less of a punishment anyway, the threat of the clutch failing is basically non-existent because the player is at no threat of dying; it's that the foregone conclusion of them winning (after all the others have died, on the hardest difficulty) takes forever to pull off. By that point, everyone's weapons have probably despawned and everyone's lost most of their money, so why bother?


Voting to kick is always a viable tool if they continue to insist on being disruptive.

It’s a character ability and speciality. Medics don’t do nearly as much damage as the rest of the team, and dedicate their time mainly to keeping them alive, so why is being able to keep themselves alive a bad thing? That is literally their ability. It’s counterintuitive to say they should die as quickly as the rest of the team, because then they should be doing the same damage output as the rest of them as well. Their self healing isn’t really what keeps them alive during the game play, it’s the buffs from healing other team mates, the self healing is a fail safe in case the team does go down, which makes up for their horrendous damage output in comparison to other classes. Yes they do damage, they have to, but name one class besides maybe Berserker now that they nerfed it to be useless above hard, that does less damage than the medic and kill zeds as quickly? Survivalist has great self sustain as well, and global damage resistance, which makes them even better when they are alone than the medic minus the move speed unless you trade the medic training perk for melee expert, which is pointless on harder difficulties unless you just want to have fun with it. What will happen from this hard nerf to medic is that they will be basically useless, and only there to make sure everyone else has all the fun. They are a medic, healing is their speciality. Saying everyone should die as a team when someone can remain to take the victory is a selfish statement. Imagine a soldier at war watching his comrades die, than decides to blow the mission. All that for nothing.

 

[Jiboia_Jin]

P

Please learn some game design.

Healers and support classes in any game of any kind have ALWAYS been designed specifically to be weak so they'll HAVE to stick with their team. Even if they aren't team players, they should be because otherwise they'll get mauled pretty easily. Team Fortress 2's medic is a perfect example of that.

Saying that as the healer you should be able to defend yourself quite well just so you can stay alive for your team is taking the problem backwards. In order to survive, you should stick close to your team and your team should protect you. Why ? Because a dead healer is useless. And a team will fare much better if they stay healthy. Simple as that really.

And that's coming from a healer main, regardless of the game.

Healers aren’t always designed to be weak, especially ones that heal themselves and buff themselves as well as the other team. Normally they just don’t deal out much damage in comparison to others, but can very tanky. Sure there are plenty of games that do this differently but there isn’t one formula to healers. I think medic is fine the way it is, just go play without one, if you think all they’re supposed to do is keep YOU alive while you rack up all the kills.

 

[Jiboia_Jin]

Aleflippy beat me to the punch on this one, but right now, the Medic's only real weakness compared to other perks is that it has some--and I stress that word--some bad weapons on it. A weakness that can be solved by just not using joke-tier weapons.

The only thing given a partial nerf recently is 1) Medic's ability to sponge damage, which can also be resolved by just not getting hit in the first place, and 2) the Healthrower being not quite as good at mowing down trash Zeds, which was only marginal because with its insane ammo reserve it will still be able to do that given the stat nerfs, it'll just take a bit longer.

It was taken down from "unreasonable" to "slightly more reasonable."

Nothing about being able to heal other players--which is Medic's designated role--was touched in the slightest. The point is to make it less of a "clutch crutch", a design inherently harmful to team-based games, and to ideally egg players into playing that supportive role by making them less viable as solo YOLOs.


This, and then some. I'm sure TWI made the Medic intentionally strong to entice players, but the class is way overtuned by any reasonable metric when compared to other games.

Imagine if the TF2 Medic had triple its base health. Because that was Medic's old damage resistance stats. To the point where most players ignored Symbiotic Health--the thing that gave you all the OP buffs you could give other teammates--because Resistance just gave you insane DR without having to work for it. "Why would I give myself buffs when I could just tank hits?"

Imagine if TF2's medic outran the Scout without using the Quick-Fix. Because that used to be its passive speed boost.

Imagine if Team Fortress 2's medic got a version of the Sniper's rifle that could use Crusader Crossbow darts to heal players and could no-scope hitscan enemy players for most of their health from across the map while inflicting slowdown. If that sounds somewhat familiar, that's because it's literally the HRG Incision.

Imagine if the Medic could self-heal at will while killing other players and also reduce incoming damage from enemy fire. Because that was basically the old Hemoclobber.

Imagine if the Medic got a six-shot revolver that allowed you to heal players with homing versions of the Crusader's Crossbow darts while killing players in a couple of bodyshots or a headshot, and also weakening any player it didn't kill outright. Because that's the current Hemogoblin.

Imagine if the Amputator's AoE healing taunt was ready on command and could also give speed/damage res/attack buffs to the Medic's team, and that he didn't have to stand still to use it, and that he could also use it to damage the enemy team. Because that's the healing grenades, the 501 grenades, and the Healthrower.

Medic started the game with 4 kinds of weapons based off a modular system, and those were plenty good; any further medic-ing than that was addressed by "stop getting hit so much." Which was fair because back in the earliest days of the class it used to give armor with darts. If you were to travel back in time to the major boards/forums in 2016 and tell players back then that Medic was getting a healing Railgun that inflicted Berserker's EMP, they might suggest you were trolling. If only they knew!

Much like the Berserker nerfs, the main thing this did was bring to the surface the sheer amount of people who play Medic because of how insanely forgiving and OP it is more than actually being useful to the team (which they sometimes are, but only incidentally).

Medic is simultaneously an incredibly strong team support player, a fairly strong gunfighter, and one of the two best "clutch crutch" classes in the game. Which "clutch" characters are, by definition; due to how this game gets easier as players die off, the supposed-to-be-weak healer class gets even stronger as other players are eliminated from the game--the very thing they are supposed to avoid!


By the time you hit the last of 4 difficulties, two of which are labeled "harder than Hard," no. Clutches are supposed to be the exception rather than the norm because a team that fails to live as a team should die as a team. And having classes dedicated to averting that principle means that more self-interested players will be drawn to that playstyle by virtue of them being selfish perks, which is bad design; it reinforces a circular problem of the Medic picking the "I don't trust my team" perks, which means the players don't trust the Medic because they're playing selfishly, and so forth.

And clutch plays are the exception where other perks are considered. If you asked how many players are clutching lategame waves with Commando compared to Zerk or Medic, I guarantee you'd get a far lower number because Commando is slow and somewhat squishy compared to other options. You cannot run away from the threat of death because on HoE Zeds will straight-up catch and kill you for trying; the last man standing scenario becomes a DPS race and is far more likely to end up in a wipe unless the remaining enemies were already more manageable to begin with, and the wipe will come far more quickly if and when that happens because the player can't drag it out.

When you have characters with self-healing to erase mistakes, speed to avoid taking hits, and tankiness that means getting hit is less of a punishment anyway, the threat of the clutch failing is basically non-existent because the player is at no threat of dying; it's that the foregone conclusion of them winning (after all the others have died, on the hardest difficulty) takes forever to pull off. By that point, everyone's weapons have probably despawned and everyone's lost most of their money, so why bother?


Voting to kick is always a viable tool if they continue to insist on being disruptive.all this argument says to me is you want certain types of players to be in your game. Very few people will play a squishy medic that does barely any damage compared to other classes. They will just pick survivalist and give you such limited healing that He’ll On Earth will drive you nuts because you will not survive without a medic that can take damage while healing. It’s literally meant to stay alive and heal, if you think nerfing the medics main abilities is justified, then need all the other classes as well. I don’t want to see Demo being able to decimate everything easily, Gun slinger and sharpshooter should no longer be able to take down big zeds single handed with one magazine, firebug shouldn’t be able to kill every trash zed instantly. This just leaves commando swat and support, Survivalist is fine the way it is but has the most op weapon in the game in the Locust. And with the other 3 I mentioned, take away their movement speed and armor. I guess that just leaves commando, the generic class.

 

[o2xVc3UuXp0NyBihrUnu]

...

In order to have an opinion on game balance one needs to learn how to format their messages on a message board first and have the levels of self reflection that make it necessary to review anything one does to ensure it works as intended. You lack both. If this approach isn't taken into consideration the resulting balance is always bad. I really hope that TWI doesn't listen to it.

 

[Jiboia_Jin]

I frequently come across with this scenario in 6p hoe games:

- Whole team dies within the first minutes, except the medic.

- Medic runs around for 20 minutes and successfully, solos the rest of the wave.

- Even if it is boss, medic doesn't die into 10 minutes.

- Hemogoblin and hrg incision have high damage for big zeds&bosses. These weapons cause medic to focus on H.V.T. instead of healing.
Especially hemogoblin has nearly higher damage potantial than Rpg-7.

- Noone wants to be waiting for 1 player long time. If your team doesn't have teamplay, you deserve to die altogether.

- Combat medic never needs help, you know medic will easily save himself from big threads. It brokes the synergy.


These problems were relating to combat medic's durability. On the other hand these are also full medic's extremisms;

- Medic gets hrg healthrower and buffs teammates constantly, it makes them tank with random healing left-click fires.

- Existance of op full-medic in the team, makes useless other healer perks (survivalist, support's HM-301, swat's HM-201, commando's 401&501). It is not big problem but it causes to high difficulty changes for this game. If you don't have medic in your team, suicidal mode may be harder than hoe with medic (especially 3p is much harder than 6p due to the control of zed spawn areas&camping chance disadvantage, this is another pair of shoes).

- Most of veterans (1000+ hours) want to new difficulty like abandon all hope&infernal nightmare that is beyond the hoe. The main reason of it, existance of the op medic in this game, imo. Balancing the medic can fix all these issues without new additions.


My suggestions:

- Decreasing ammo pool of hrg healthrower or removing/nerfing healing potential of dart.

- Nerfing hemogoblin's base damage, because it courages medics to focus on big zeds directly. It causes tons of assault medic in this game. This weapon also gets slower all enemies and deal high damage potantial (melts them quickly) even "as a last man standing against Matriarch 6p hoe".

- Medic sniper has 400 base damage in comparison with sharpshooter's railgun has 560 base, it is too much.

- Resillience is also op. Lower percentage values may be better instead of %60.

- or removing passive %10 movement speed may be good with adding extra armor (from 150 to 175-200), because these changes gives error margin to compensate damage taken instead of immortality.

Giving a medic 200 health with their syringe recharge rate and potency would make them virtually immortal lol.. 50 percent potency at lvl 25 means they’d heal 100 health with a 200 percent recharge rate.. and the 50 extra armor giving them 150 armor and 200 health.. I think it’s fine personally. I think a point people tend to forget is that the medic is also the least damaging class of all the classes. I could see a need to the heal thrower, but classes are being needed to the point where no one is going to want to even play them. I used to really enjoy being a Berzerker, especially being able to aggro confidently. Now, it doesn’t feel much different than other classes due to the sheer amount of damage you will take compared to other classes which is a point that seems to be left out. It’s like cmon dude, of course classes like demo, support, swat, gs etc shouldn’t be as tanky because they can decimate everything so quickly from range at that. I’m with a harder game mode, but the needs just kind of ruin the classes. It’s easy to say for people that don’t play those classes, but they would fine themselves on the other side of the argument once their favorite classes start getting nerfed. I vote to nerf head shot damage on gun slinger because they shouldn’t be able to carry solo by taking down any zed in 3 seconds.

 

[OnionBubs]

Before I drop an essay on you for real this time: What difficulties do you normally play on with the various perks? And I mean regularly, not just "got the HoE trophies once."

Because I'm seeing a recurring theme in your posts where the argument essentially boils down to "Medic needs to be able to take more damage because it will be taking hits because it's bad at shooting."

And this...

...name one class besides maybe Berserker now that they nerfed it to be useless above hard...

...besides other things in your posts is setting off alarms in my head that you're probably coming at this from a perspective of an inexperienced and/or less-skilled player level.

 

[Aleflippy]

Healers aren’t always designed to be weak, especially ones that heal themselves and buff themselves as well as the other team. Normally they just don’t deal out much damage in comparison to others, but can very tanky. Sure there are plenty of games that do this differently but there isn’t one formula to healers. I think medic is fine the way it is, just go play without one, if you think all they’re supposed to do is keep YOU alive while you rack up all the kills.

What part of "I'm a medic main, regardless of the game" didn't you get?

I have no source for the claim I'm about to make, but I'm sure many of us medics started because... nobody ever wanted to play as one. They're essential to a team, but nobody would want to sacrifice their damage output nor their k/d ratio. Some people stayed that way, only looking at the medic when you were clearly losing and no one would take such a heavy burden on their shoulders. And some others found a true calling. I know I did.

Playing medic is super rewarding. Almost NO ONE will mind even if you do a mediocre job, because it's almost always gonna be better than having NO healer. The medic is the epitome of a TEAM PLAYER. In a TEAM and CLASS-BASED game, there's almost always gonna be a healer of some sort. It would be pretentious to claim the archetype is the backbone of a team, you obviously can't rely on a medic alone, even if he's/she's really good. But a team with a good medic will almost always outperform a team that has no support. Playing medic is sexy, because while you aren't racking the kills yourselves, you're making sure the enemy team gets the least amount of it. A good medic is INFURIATING to fight against, because he can sometimes ruin your best efforts by destroying any chance you might have to score that successful push. You know who's the priority target between the higher-scoring opponent and the enemy team's medic? Almost 99% of the time, it's gonna be the medic. Get the medic killed and its team will struggle far more to survive. Either they'll maintain their strategy and die, or they'll play more defensively, allowing you to break through.

Of course, KF2 is pretty much a PvE only game (who plays versus nowadays?), but that doesn't make it any less true. A skillful medic is good to have on lower difficulties. It's pretty much a necessity in harder ones. And that's ALL IT NEEDS. Being such a crucial role is THE BEST REWARD you could get as a player. A good demo can probably deal with the bigger threats just as effectively as a sharpshooter (and the other way around). A SWAT players putting all his cards into incapacitating zeds and tanking could arguably replace a zerk decently enough (although both have their own quirks). No one can replace a medic.

And guess what? Even if you have a small team (let's say 3-4 players), their task is to PROTECT YOU. Just as your task is to protect them. It's easy to get blinded by success and think you're invincible because you got a medic on your ass... and that's especially frustrating as a medic because both your healing target(s) and yourself can be put in unnecessary danger. But a good player KNOWS how precious a medic is. A good player will refrain themselves if they realize the situation is just too dangerous, even with a good medic on their side. A good player doesn't simply care for its score : he knows when to refrain himself. He knows that it's better to avoid a fight and live another day than get himself and possibly others killed. If you never lived through such situations, I'm very sorry for you, but you came across selfish and/or bad players.

The medic is both the least powerful and the most powerful archetype. You will rarely get many kills with it, and that's on purpose ! But you hold the very lives of your teammates in your hands. Failing to see this as an ally is bad teamplay. Failing to see this AS THE MEDIC is truly worrying, and you're definitely not meant for that role.

 

[Jiboia_Jin]

What part of "I'm a medic main, regardless of the game" didn't you get?

I have no source for the claim I'm about to make, but I'm sure many of us medics started because... nobody ever wanted to play as one. They're essential to a team, but nobody would want to sacrifice their damage output nor their k/d ratio. Some people stayed that way, only looking at the medic when you were clearly losing and no one would take such a heavy burden on their shoulders. And some others found a true calling. I know I did.

Playing medic is super rewarding. Almost NO ONE will mind even if you do a mediocre job, because it's almost always gonna be better than having NO healer. The medic is the epitome of a TEAM PLAYER. In a TEAM and CLASS-BASED game, there's almost always gonna be a healer of some sort. It would be pretentious to claim the archetype is the backbone of a team, you obviously can't rely on a medic alone, even if he's/she's really good. But a team with a good medic will almost always outperform a team that has no support. Playing medic is sexy, because while you aren't racking the kills yourselves, you're making sure the enemy team gets the least amount of it. A good medic is INFURIATING to fight against, because he can sometimes ruin your best efforts by destroying any chance you might have to score that successful push. You know who's the priority target between the higher-scoring opponent and the enemy team's medic? Almost 99% of the time, it's gonna be the medic. Get the medic killed and its team will struggle far more to survive. Either they'll maintain their strategy and die, or they'll play more defensively, allowing you to break through.

Of course, KF2 is pretty much a PvE only game (who plays versus nowadays?), but that doesn't make it any less true. A skillful medic is good to have on lower difficulties. It's pretty much a necessity in harder ones. And that's ALL IT NEEDS. Being such a crucial role is THE BEST REWARD you could get as a player. A good demo can probably deal with the bigger threats just as effectively as a sharpshooter (and the other way around). A SWAT players putting all his cards into incapacitating zeds and tanking could arguably replace a zerk decently enough (although both have their own quirks). No one can replace a medic.

And guess what? Even if you have a small team (let's say 3-4 players), their task is to PROTECT YOU. Just as your task is to protect them. It's easy to get blinded by success and think you're invincible because you got a medic on your ass... and that's especially frustrating as a medic because both your healing target(s) and yourself can be put in unnecessary danger. But a good player KNOWS how precious a medic is. A good player will refrain themselves if they realize the situation is just too dangerous, even with a good medic on their side. A good player doesn't simply care for its score : he knows when to refrain himself. He knows that it's better to avoid a fight and live another day than get himself and possibly others killed. If you never lived through such situations, I'm very sorry for you, but you came across selfish and/or bad players.

The medic is both the least powerful and the most powerful archetype. You will rarely get many kills with it, and that's on purpose ! But you hold the very lives of your teammates in your hands. Failing to see this as an ally is bad teamplay. Failing to see this AS THE MEDIC is truly worrying, and you're definitely not meant for that role.

Listen dude you are taking this way too seriously. As if I was bad mouthing the medic class. I was simply saying the medic is fine the way it is, don’t get your panties in a bunch over it. And don’t tell me idk what it is to play a medic class. I know exactly what I’m doing when I play that class.

 

[Jiboia_Jin]

Before I drop an essay on you for real this time: What difficulties do you normally play on with the various perks? And I mean regularly, not just "got the HoE trophies once."

Because I'm seeing a recurring theme in your posts where the argument essentially boils down to "Medic needs to be able to take more damage because it will be taking hits because it's bad at shooting."

And this...


...besides other things in your posts is setting off alarms in my head that you're probably coming at this from a perspective of an inexperienced and/or less-skilled player level.

Yeah well that’s a big assumption. You seem to be on a high horse and that’s fine, but I can tell you now I am good at this game. I’m also intelligent when it comes to strategy and a great team player. Just because you have a difference in opinion doesn’t mean I’m inexperienced. In fact I have the platinum for this game in PS. I’ve probably played this game before you even knew it existed. That being said, the medic is fine the way it is. Go ahead, play in a harder difficulty at level 0. Play HOE. Tell me the experience isn’t frustrating. Becuase it isn’t. Everyone wants all these classes to be nerfed and it’s ridiculous. A few salty players want to ruin the game for everyone else, while claiming it’s like they have seniority or something because they’re “experienced.” What you’re doing is nerfing things to the ground until they’re not useful or fun to play. I recommend a harder game mode, instead of nerfing everything. And yes the Medic should be able to take damage, if there’s one nerd for it, I’d say it’s syringe recharge rate and the amount it heals. Other than that, it’s fine the way it is. That’s my opinion, you have yours, and not one is right, these are opinions.

Maybe you should step down from that high horse Mr. Professional Killing Floor 2 guy. No one can seem to have a conversation without some insult attached to it these days. And then deny that’s what they were doing when called out on it.

 

[Jiboia_Jin]

If your whole team dies within the first few minutes, then maybe it’s the guy playing medic, not the class itself. I don’t understand how this point makes medic to strong. They have survivability yes, they are a medic after all. This says nothing about the class, it’s about the player. Some people people are selfish players, don’t let them ruin the game.

 

[Aleflippy]

Listen dude you are taking this way too seriously. As if I was bad mouthing the medic class. I was simply saying the medic is fine the way it is, don’t get your panties in a bunch over it. And don’t tell me idk what it is to play a medic class. I know exactly what I’m doing when I play that class.

You could have settled for "TL;DR", that would have worked just as fine.

Claiming a medic is "fine as is" when it's arguably the most versatile and prone to survive is not knowing how to play the class. But I guess it's easier to label my rant as boring bull**** than to recognize some basic game design rules?

Yeah well that’s a big assumption. You seem to be on a high horse and that’s fine, but I can tell you now I am good at this game. I’m also intelligent when it comes to strategy and a great team player. Just because you have a difference in opinion doesn’t mean I’m inexperienced. In fact I have the platinum for this game in PS. I’ve probably played this game before you even knew it existed. That being said, the medic is fine the way it is. Go ahead, play in a harder difficulty at level 0. Play HOE. Tell me the experience isn’t frustrating. Becuase it isn’t. Everyone wants all these classes to be nerfed and it’s ridiculous. A few salty players want to ruin the game for everyone else, while claiming it’s like they have seniority or something because they’re “experienced.” What you’re doing is nerfing things to the ground until they’re not useful or fun to play. I recommend a harder game mode, instead of nerfing everything. And yes the Medic should be able to take damage, if there’s one nerd for it, I’d say it’s syringe recharge rate and the amount it heals. Other than that, it’s fine the way it is. That’s my opinion, you have yours, and not one is right, these are opinions.

Maybe you should step down from that high horse Mr. Professional Killing Floor 2 guy. No one can seem to have a conversation without some insult attached to it these days. And then deny that’s what they were doing when called out on it.

Claiming my guy Onion is pretentious when you write an entire paragraph to explain why you're so damn good at KF2 is pure eye-candy. In case you didn't get it already, Onion mostly (or only?) plays HoE at a high level, and have a good grasp at what good game design is about (those are always long posts, but should you be interested, try to find some of his earlier comments... They are goldmines, I learned a lot through them myself)

"I've probably played this game before you knew it existed" is kind of a weird thing to say. I could say the same about TF2 : I played the game upon its very release. But guess what? I was ten years old back then ! And I had a pretty lengthy break in-between, where I played other games... Am I allowed to say I've been playing the game for fifteen years? I guess I could... But I probably didn't know how to play the game well at all. Meanwhile, many players joined the game when it turned free-to-play, maybe as "early" as five years ago at best. And they're insanely more knowledgeable about the game that I'll ever be. Time itself doesn't mean much... I could play souls-like for YEARS and still fail miserably if I don't take the time to learn and understand why I keep getting my ass kicked. You can master a game in a matter of weeks if you're dedicated, just like you can play for ten years and still be a scrub if you just persist in playing wrong.

Not every perk is deserving of a nerf? I never heard anyone asking for a gunslinger, SWAT, Commando, Support or Sharpshooter nerfs. But it is true that we're seeing a bit too much power in the hands of the remaining perks. We've already talked about the medic and zerk at length, but I can give you a quick summary why I think the remaining three could get back to the drawing board for some tweaking :

-The Survivalist is meant to be the jack-of-all-trades, master of none perk. It's very idea is to offer a very versatile option that struggles to be as good in any role compared to dedicated perks. He should be slightly better at healing than most perks... But not better than the medic. It should be able to tackle big zeds, but not as well as the demo or sharp. As it currently resides though, the perk is quite stupidly tanky. And its own weaponry is pretty damn solid, despite having no real overarching theme about it (except maybe... "sci-fi weapons" ?)

-Both the Firebug and Demo are just too good at dealing with everything these days. It doesn't just come from their skills (which are mostly fine the way they are), but from their arsenal. They got far too many weapons tailored for any role. The demo is meant to be a pure glass cannon, probably even more so than the sharpshooter. It was meant to be very bad at dealing with trash zeds, and defending itself... meaning he had to have a proper team to back him up, in exchange for pure raw power against the biggest threats which are Scrakes and Fleshpounds. As it stands, the demo can definitely take care of itself and still be able to melt everything that comes to him. The firebug is meant to be a crowd control class and a formidable trash cleaner. Yet similarly, it is now capable to hold a whole zone on its own. The ground fire is just so nasty (and now works with EVERY weapon!) that you can just fire in a corridor and watch a pile of bodies slowly increasing in front of you. Even husks aren't the annoyance they used to be : most weapons can deal with them without problem.

You CAN and SHOULD have limitations to your class. Otherwise... What's the point of having them? Sure, being CRUSHED by difficulty is not a fun way to play. But walking through everything the game throws at you ain't very fun either. And that's something that a lot of players, regardless of the game, still struggle to see... What's fun if a game NEVER challenges you? If you never feel threatened? You should be able to overcome everything the game throws at you... but ONLY with the right tools or mechanics. There's something insanely satisfying with overcoming the impossible. Otherwise, Souls-like games wouldn't be as popular as they are right now.

As far having conversations without insults... Funny that you mention that. Because I never felt like I had any conversation with you ever since you joined the forum. Granted, you didn't insult us. But you've done nothing but dismiss our arguments because "we don't know what we're talking about". If you want to have a conversation, at least try to come up with real counter-arguments that show us why we're wrong. And not come up with a praise about your skills, or a mockery of ours.

If your whole team dies within the first few minutes, then maybe it’s the guy playing medic, not the class itself. I don’t understand how this point makes medic to strong. They have survivability yes, they are a medic after all. This says nothing about the class, it’s about the player. Some people people are selfish players, don’t let them ruin the game.

Well... Yes? Nobody said that a medic couldn't be played wrong. The closest thing I've said in regards to that was that "even a mediocre medic will rarely get some flak from its team", but I should have added "a mediocre medic that TRIES".

Of course if you go battle medic, your team will surely have an harder time surviving, and you won't contribute much to the team effort at all. Again, a dead medic is totally useless, hence why you should always stick to your team and try to focus on their AND YOUR survival. Not your score.

But as such, the class should be designed in such a way that going battle medic should never cross the mind of a player in the first place. Either beginner or veteran. And that's where KF2 fails, because the class is indeed so tanky, so versatile, so able to fend zeds on its own that going battle medic is somewhat viable. If you try to do so in TF2, you're in for a bad time : almost every class has a better damage output than you do. That's not the case in KF2, and as we mentioned numerous times, it clearly shows when the last survivor is almost always a medic.