Selective Fire Discussion (Merged Yet Again)

[Zbojnik]

If speaking of the best smg of the war then i would point out to the M1A1 Thompson, far more accurate and reliable than the PPSh 41.
The PPSh 41 would heat up far more easily and was build up with worse materials than the M1A1 Thompson, the only thing was that it had a 30 round magazine, but had a far more powerful bullet.

If i would be on the easternfront and had to make a choice between the MP40 or the PPSh 41, then i would go for the PPSh

Would you not say that the M1928 series of Thompsons are superior than the M1 Series? I thought so.

 

[Grobut]

the p90 fires a special round that is basicly a small rifle round, designed for range and accuracy not the short range & stopping power of a pistol round.

Yes, and suprice suprice, so is the 7.62x25!

Follow this link for a nice little picture of it:

http://makarov.com/graphics/ammo/762TOK_JHP_03.JPG

The 7.62x25 is not like a standard pistol round, its made like a small rifle round (a cute one, too!).

 

[KrazyKraut]

If this PPSh is modeled from a 1944 PPSh then it counts as a late model which should not feature a selector lever. The PPSh I fired last week was from early '44 and didn't have the selector lever. Read here.
http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/ppsh41.html
http://www.ppsh41.com/
http://www.wwiireenacting.co.uk/articles/wow/ppsh41/index.htm
http://www.gunsworld.com/gun_smg/ppsh_41.htm

Well, even if there are PPSh's without the selector, they must be rather rare. For example, the links you provided only show examples with the selector switch (at first glance at least). Also as i said the model in game HAS the selector switch IIRC, so unless the Soviets built non-functional switches into their guns for fun, the PPSh in RO should be select-fire.

Yes, and suprice suprice, so is the 7.62x25!

No, it's simply bottle-necked. But apart from that it's still an ordinary pistol round.

 

[PGD03]

Well, even if there are PPSh's without the selector, they must be rather rare. For example, the links you provided only show examples with the selector switch (at first glance at least). Also as i said the model in game HAS the selector switch IIRC, so unless the Soviets built non-functional switches into their guns for fun, the PPSh in RO should be select-fire.

No, it's simply bottle-necked. But apart from that it's still an ordinary pistol round.

Yep.. Quote from the site which is taken from the book "Military Small Arms of the 20th Century" by Ian Hogg and John Weeks:

"Stripping was simplicity itself, as the receiver hinged open to reveal the bolt and spring. There was no selector lever on some of the late models, when the gun was capable of only automatic fire, and the magazine was the proved and tried 71 round Suomi drum." Doesn't even say all late models.. But who knows how many of the late models had and how many didn't. I don't give a rats ass about that since both of them are right.

 

[Norden]

Would you not say that the M1928 series of Thompsons are superior than the M1 Series? I thought so.

My apologise, i must confess that i'm not an expert on this subject. And that i'm using statements and arguements based on other peoples statements.
I just cannot ignore their statements because most of their arguements where based on facts, as they said.

I just have my doubts about this weapon being the best SMG of the war. Even looking at it's capable range. I can be confinced, and i would love to see more sources based on facts.

 

[Grobut]

No, it's simply bottle-necked. But apart from that it's still an ordinary pistol round.

And the 5.7x28mm is just a bottle necked pistol round with a pointier nose, thats all it is really.
The two are clouser related than a 7.62x25 is with a 9x19mm, the important thing here is velocity, projectile weight versus propellant power, thats what gives you range and accuracy, and the 7.62x25 has that ratio well in its favour compared to more traditional pistol rounds.

Now im not saying the 7.62x25 will match the performance of the 5.7x28, it wont, im just saying thats a better comparison than trying to compare it to a modern 9x19mm.

 

[Zbojnik]

Well, even if there are PPSh's without the selector, they must be rather rare. For example, the links you provided only show examples with the selector switch (at first glance at least). Also as i said the model in game HAS the selector switch IIRC, so unless the Soviets built non-functional switches into their guns for fun, the PPSh in RO should be select-fire.

No, it's simply bottle-necked. But apart from that it's still an ordinary pistol round.

If they have it in there they yes it should have select fire.

 

[Plaid13]

Its true that some of the later models of the gun didnt have select fire but... everything i have ever heard about this guy has basicly said that it had select fire most of the time. So at least some of the maps should have a select fire ppsh. Millions of these guns were made and most of them did have select fire it just dosnt make sence to have none of them in the game with select fire.

As far as being dropped and fireing alot of the sub machine guns from that time period had the exact same problem. It wasnt out of the norm for that stuff to happen with any of the sub machine guns that have been used in the game. Keep in mind sub machine guns were still a fairly new concept during world war 2 and they are nowhere near as safe to use as the modern stuff out now. when they were being made back then they were basicly happy just to have a working gun. you dont want to be throwing a gun around anyway.
That being said it would be amusing to have one of these things go off every now and then when they get shot out of your hand. Would be funny as hell to have a dropped smg wipe out a few random people near by.

The ppsh was also more accurate then the other smgs of the war not just because of the longer barral or the ammo it used but because of the design of the gun the way the barrel shroud was longer then the barrel itself. it worked at a break and a compensator to control the recoil. so the gas beng expelled at the end of the barral was also helping to push the gun back down to where you orginaly had it.

If anyone is looking for more info on the ppsh or basicly any gun.
http://world.guns.ru is a good site to check out.

 

[Zbojnik]

Its true that some of the later models of the gun didnt have select fire but... everything i have ever heard about this guy has basicly said that it had select fire most of the time. So at least some of the maps should have a select fire ppsh. Millions of these guns were made and most of them did have select fire it just dosnt make sence to have none of them in the game with select fire.

As far as being dropped and fireing alot of the sub machine guns from that time period had the exact same problem. It wasnt out of the norm for that stuff to happen with any of the sub machine guns that have been used in the game. Keep in mind sub machine guns were still a fairly new concept during world war 2 and they are nowhere near as safe to use as the modern stuff out now. when they were being made back then they were basicly happy just to have a working gun. you dont want to be throwing a gun around anyway.
That being said it would be amusing to have one of these things go off every now and then when they get shot out of your hand. Would be funny as hell to have a dropped smg wipe out a few random people near by.

The ppsh was also more accurate then the other smgs of the war not just because of the longer barral or the ammo it used but because of the design of the gun the way the barrel shroud was longer then the barrel itself. it worked at a break and a compensator to control the recoil. so the gas beng expelled at the end of the barral was also helping to push the gun back down to where you orginaly had it.

If anyone is looking for more info on the ppsh or basicly any gun.
http://world.guns.ru is a good site to check out.

The PPSh would fire when dropped since it fired from an open bolt. This would happen to any weapon that shot from an open bolt not just the PPSh.

 

[bas]

People please learn to read; how does

There was no selector lever on some of the late models

become all late model PPSh's were full auto only?

I have yet to see a non-select fire PPSh-41. As I have said over and over I own a PPSh-41 that was manufactured in 1944 and it is select fire all photos of them show the fire selector. I have handled WWII Russian, post war Hungarian, Chinese and Korean PPSh-41s and you guessed it, there are all select fire!

Those people who believe that the full-auto only version was common, can you please prove it by showing us a photo of one.

And the Thompson being the best SMG of WWII. Don't make me laugh, there is a reason the M3 Grease gun was designed.

Just think of all the infantry weapons in service with the US and British army, the Thompson is the only one to see a significant re-design from the m1928 to the m1 and then get superceeded. Ever wondered why that was?

 

[Norden]

become all late model PPSh's were full auto only?

I have yet to see a non-select fire PPSh-41. As I have said over and over I own a PPSh-41 that was manufactured in 1944 and it is select fire all photos of them show the fire selector. I have handled WWII Russian, post war Hungarian, Chinese and Korean PPSh-41s and you guessed it, there are all select fire!

Those people who believe that the full-auto only version was common, can you please prove it by showing us a photo of one.

And the Thompson being the best SMG of WWII. Don't make me laugh, there is a reason the M3 Grease gun was designed.

Just think of all the infantry weapons in service with the US and British army, the Thompson is the only one to see a significant re-design from the m1928 to the m1 and then get superceeded. Ever wondered why that was?

I doubt your statement, come with hard evidence from untouched documents or books.

If the PPSh 41 is such a good weapon then why don't they use it today?
If it had such a good recoil and range than why did they designed the AK 47?

Since when do weapons have a sence of humor?

 

[Reddog]

I doubt your statement, come with hard evidence from untouched documents or books.

If the PPSh 41 is such a good weapon then why don't they use it today?
If it had such a good recoil and range than why did they designed the AK 47?

Since when do weapons have a sence of humor?

The M1 Garand was a great weapon, why isn't it used today? It's simple, evolution.

The PPSh as great as it is, is still a sub machine gun firing a low velocity (in relation to rifle velocities) pistol caliber. The AK47 is an assault rifle firing an intermediate rifle round, 7.62x39 M43. It offers significant advantages in range, stopping power and accuracy over a sub machine gun. It is also a much more universal option to equip an army. You don't need to be a genious to work this out, the whole smg ideology was going out after WW2 it was the way the wind was blowing.

It is well known that the M1 and M1A1 Thompson had problems with weight, accuracy, reliability and expense of manufacture. Problems as bad as the 30 round magazines being too heavy for the magazine spring and falling out while you carried the gun, and that information I obtained from Stephen Ambrose's book D-Day. Now how about rather than ordering everyone else to go hunting for literature on the subject you try doing some research yourself?

 

[bas]

I doubt your statement, come with hard evidence from untouched documents or books.

What statement is that? That I physically own a select fire PPSh-41 that was manufactured in 1944? I think thats pretty conclusive don't you?

So I have presented my evidence how about you present yours or shut up?

If the PPSh 41 is such a good weapon then why don't they use it today?
If it had such a good recoil and range than why did they designed the AK 47?

Reddog answered that one, but for the record the PPSh is still being manufactured to this day. The ones that are showing up in Iraq right now are being produced in Iran.

 

[{YBBS}Sage]

I'm getting off-topic, I know, but the M1 Thompson came about because the M1928 was too complicated and expensive to build. The M3 replaced the Thompson for the same reason; it was simpler and therefore cheaper and faster to build.

And whoever was talking about the PPSH rounds being subsonic.. they weren't. The muzzle velocity should be something around 1300+ FPS. Pretty comparable to modern 9mm though with a lighter bullet, so less muzzle force and stopping power at close range... but it'd keep more energy at longer ranges because of less drag on the bullet.

 

[Norden]

What statement is that? That I physically own a select fire PPSh-41 that was manufactured in 1944? I think thats pretty conclusive don't you?

So I have presented my evidence how about you present yours or shut up?

No i don't think that is conclusive, you'l have to come with better evidence than that to convince me

shut up? now dont get rude, this is just a discussion thread

The M1 Garand was a great weapon, why isn't it used today? It's simple, evolution.

The PPSh as great as it is, is still a sub machine gun firing a low velocity (in relation to rifle velocities) pistol caliber. The AK47 is an assault rifle firing an intermediate rifle round, 7.62x39 M43. It offers significant advantages in range, stopping power and accuracy over a sub machine gun. It is also a much more universal option to equip an army. You don't need to be a genious to work this out, the whole smg ideology was going out after WW2 it was the way the wind was blowing.

Thats just what i wanted to hear, thanks

 

[NakedGun]

Sorry again for bad english...

1) No documents with prove about PPSH-41 without select-fire are available in internet.

2) No photos of PPSH-41 without select-fire available in internet. You can check it:
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&client=opera&rls=en&q=ppsh-41&btnG=Search

3) Drop PPSH-41 in game and look at it. YES! Its model have select-fire in RO: http://img19.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ppsh418dj.jpg
Devs cant find PPSH without it! LOL

Well maybe simplified version of PPSH was manufactured in extremly small ammounts and was lost in history, but why we must use it in RO? Looks like devs just make fake weapon for... balanse??? This is very very bad.

 

[Reddog]

I reckon it's a balance thing, I can see people using the PPSh as a short range 71-round carbine if it had the selector switch in game.

 

[NakedGun]

Then let remove stg44 from game for balance. Its crazy. If weapon have select-fire devs must add it. RO is not arcade, its war sim.

 

[{YBBS}Sage]

I'd love to have select-fire on the PPSh... I use the StG44 almost exclusively in single-fire mode, and could see myself doing the same with the PPSh.

 

[bas]

No i don't think that is conclusive, you'l have to come with better evidence than that to convince me

shut up? now dont get rude, this is just a discussion thread

Suggesting that I am a liar that uses touched up photographs is pretty rude I think.

So I have presented my evidence based on physical and photographic experience. How about you put your money where your mouth is and show us a photo of one PPSh-41 without the fire selector?