What I think is the cause of the armor problems...

[Helmut_AUT]

I know there are about threehundred threads so far dealing with Tiger vs. T-34.

All I wanted to say is that after some game time now, I can't help but say my personal opinion is that the main cause of the mismatch Tiger/T-34 is that somehow round armor seems to have too much of a bonus, whereas normal plate armor perhabs is too weak.

Why?
So far to date, the Battlefront.com Combat Mission games have had the reputation for the most accurate armor penetration model ever. Many people here seem to pull their data from their penetration charts.

But what happens in RO does not match what happens in CMBB. Over there, Tigers have easy play with T-34 - both early and late. The 88mm on the Tiger is basically the same gun as the famous Flak36 "88", and it was exceptionally well suited to killing T-34s of all flavors.

I think that is actually a reason why the Panther is doing so well in-game - it gets the same "oversized" armor bonus for the rounded turret.

 

[[RWTD]Ghost[BCthc]]

I agree 100%, the sloped effect is way over done, Period. I understand the fact that sloped armor technically makes the armor "thicker" it still doesnt change the fact that the tiger and panther should carve the t-34's up like a fresh roasted turkey (lame reference, but who doesnt love turkey?) Im still hoping for a fix.

 

[prinz eugen]

theres something very wrong with the new version of RO... in the game... it is impossible for a tiger to penetrate the front armour--at any angle-- of a t34.... come on... pl tell me i'm wrong!!!!!!

 

[[5.SS] Hollenfeuer]

On the flip side, does the armor code represent shot traps on the tank design?

 

[Helmut_AUT]

Shot traps - yes, I guess since riochets are modelled correctly (or so it seems) it would be possible to deflect a shell downwards into the hull. People even with the old mod version have reported that bounced shells still have killing power on other tanks, so if it bounces from the turret of a panther or T-34 downwards, it should work.

 

[Michael Wittmann+]

Yeh I agree also an 88mm would not glance off a T-34 like that as often as it does.

 

[Panzerkeil]

Yesterday on Bondarevo in my Panzer III I targeted a T60 that was in close combat with another Panzer III. My shot bounced off the T60 and hit the Panzer resulting in it's destruction.. I don't think that is very likely in real world..

 

[kfnguy2]

theres something very wrong with the new version of RO... in the game... it is impossible for a tiger to penetrate the front armour--at any angle-- of a t34.... come on... pl tell me i'm wrong!!!!!!

You're wrong. The Tiger is the only german tank I use. People just need to use it correctly. Every powerful gun including the IS2's 122mm is underpowered (Which is superior to the tiger's). Instead of just focusing on the tiger... How about we focus on the bigger issue? Thanks.

 

[Felix Ostheim]

I agree the larger issue if there is one is the math for all tanks.

You could use an attitude adjustment however KFN when it comes to this subject...

 

[LordKhaine]

You're wrong. The Tiger is the only german tank I use. People just need to use it correctly. Every powerful gun including the IS2's 122mm is underpowered (Which is superior to the tiger's). Instead of just focusing on the tiger... How about we focus on the bigger issue? Thanks.

The "bigger issue" is the one the thread maker highlighted, that of rounded armour being overpowered. The reason people mention the Tiger so much is because it's the prime example of unsloped yet thick armour. The basic flaws in the tank damage model affect the Tiger more than any other tank. This is why people (including myself) mention the Tiger so much.

It's not a case of "this tank is screwed!" it's a case of "the damage model is screwed, just look at this tank to see why".

 

[Oleg]

So far to date, the Battlefront.com Combat Mission games have had the reputation for the most accurate armor penetration model ever. Many people here seem to pull their data from their penetration charts.

But what happens in RO does not match what happens in CMBB. Over there, Tigers have easy play with T-34 - both early and late. The 88mm on the Tiger is basically the same gun as the famous Flak36 "88", and it was exceptionally well suited to killing T-34s of all flavors.

Compared to RO, Combat Mission is a JOKE. In fact now thinking about it, RO should have easier time converting CM guys to play the game than, say, COD2 or BF2 guys.

CM is also incredibly pro-German in everything it models. CMBB was and perhaps still is (stopped playing it long ago) ridicolously pro German in some aspects.

Oleg

 

[[RWTD]Ghost[BCthc]]

The modeled everything to real life Oleg, sorry if your crappy ruskie armor isnt up to german standards...

 

[Oleg]

The modeled everything to real life Oleg, sorry if your crappy ruskie armor isnt up to german standards...

I am not a Russian, Ghost, still it could help if you check who actually won the war Calling Russian armor "crappy" also makes your objectivity very questionable.

CM may have modelled stuff like armor penetration - I am not a penetration junkie in wargames (porn is another matter ) if the overall feel is right - but the game in itself plays like one huge German fanboy party.

Same goes for other CM games in the series, that are not set on the East Front. Perhaps it's so because German guys are modelled as having uber 1337 experience, morale and whatnot, while their opponents are merely average (or in case of Ruskies even worse).

 

[[5.SS]Strother]

I was in a tiger with a couple other 5.SS guys and we had the exact opposite problem that you may expect. Shells were bouncing off our angled tiger like nothing while the gunner was scoring one shot kills on t34s. Sometimes it took 2-3 shots. Sometimes you have to be patient and choose your shot. The damage models are a bit screwy though.

 

[Helmut_AUT]

Compared to RO, Combat Mission is a JOKE. In fact now thinking about it, RO should have easier time converting CM guys to play the game than, say, COD2 or BF2 guys.

CM is also incredibly pro-German in everything it models. CMBB was and perhaps still is (stopped playing it long ago) ridicolously pro German in some aspects.

Oleg

If you took your time to find some information on the calculations used in CMBB you wouldn't blurt out an opinion like that.

Their model isn't perfect - the calculating power to take everthing into account would be too much - but they are using very advanced maths in their engine, way beyond simple angle, kinetic energy and armor thickness considerations. Add to that a year or two of researching armor penetration charts, armor values and stuff, and you have the best "what if" oracle currently avalable.

 

[Helmut_AUT]

I'm finding that I see very little bounces on the Tiger when I'm playing.

The thing is, even a 90

 

[[5.SS]Strother]

Armor thickness of 110mm versus a 76mm gun means the gun is always at a disadvantage.

I don't know the exact penetrations of the t34's 76mm but I'm pretty sure at most ranges the 76mm can penetrate the 110mm armor at a 90 degree angle. I'm not sure why people complain about the tiger's "lack of armor" when in real life the 76mm shell would penetrate the armor.

I have an idea, how about when a tank is struck by a shell everything becomes blurry and the crew loses hearing for a while, this would offset the richochet problems just a bit.

 

[Fu. Svedberg]

As have been said in all other millions of threads concerning this topic:

Currently in game the Tiger NEVER faces a T34/76 only T34/85.

 

[LordKhaine]

I don't know the exact penetrations of the t34's 76mm but I'm pretty sure at most ranges the 76mm can penetrate the 110mm armor at a 90 degree angle. I'm not sure why people complain about the tiger's "lack of armor" when in real life the 76mm shell would penetrate the armor.

The Russian 76mm T34 was unable to penetrate the frontal armour of the Tiger at any range, with any ammo type. In fact according to the chart I'm looking at it would struggle to touch any side of a Tiger unless it was armed with APCR (when it starts to penetrate the sides at around 500m).

Not which it matters as people have said.. the Russians field waves of T34 85's and IS-2s in RO with hardly a 76mm T34 in sight. And the 85mm gun was far better and able to frontally penetrate the Tiger at around 1000m.

 

[wokelly]

The Russian 76mm T34 was unable to penetrate the frontal armour of the Tiger at any range, with any ammo type. In fact according to the chart I'm looking at it would struggle to touch any side of a Tiger unless it was armed with APCR (when it starts to penetrate the sides at around 500m).

Not which it matters as people have said.. the Russians field waves of T34 85's and IS-2s in RO with hardly a 76mm T34 in sight. And the 85mm gun was far better and able to frontally penetrate the Tiger at around 1000m.

You're looking at figures that is the penetration if it hit at a 30 degree angle. If the T34s round hit a tiger at 100m against 90 degree armor, it would penetrate the Tigers front armor.