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Was the Tiger really this Weak?

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#61
noshens said:
lol thats Ioseph Stalin 2 tank you are talking about, not t34/85. For that you have to look at T34/85 vs Tiger 1 (88mm S53) column. Don't they teach how to read tables in highschool?:confused:
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My source is not from that table... sorry.

noshens said:
Slope didn't play as important role back then as it does now. Do you really think tiger's engineers didn't know importance of slope? I think they did and chose what is the best for the said design.
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Give it up man. Slope played a huge role. Why do you think after modeling the tiger the later Panther and Tiger 2 had slope armor? Oh because it didn't play a big role huh. Not to mention the Panther was in response to the T34 as they realized the advantages of sloped armor.
 
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#62
is it possible that the benefit of sloped armor in RO is over exaggerated vs nonslopped?

that would account for the tiger feeling weaker than it really is/was.

in the idea's and suggestions there is a big thread on the tank damage model which you can read here: http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4434


this may go to the whole setup in RO that if a shot is not deflected, it will do a certain percentage of damage to the tanks Hitpoints (yes the tanks have an overall health or hitpoints)..

So even though IRL, a shot may not damage the Tiger.. in RO if the shot was not deflected it does do damage to the tiger's overall hitpoints..

after reading both threads (great discussions going on).. i've pretty much convinced myself that the tiger feeling weaker is due to the damage modeling in RO..

that if you don't deflect a shot it is guaranteed to 100% cause damage and this damage comes in the form of lower the tanks health (hitpoints)..

where as opposed to real life damage model, there is no health.. your objective is to damage systems, crew, ammo ...

if this is the case, the only fix would be to revamp the armor damage model to not be hitpoint based, but systems/area/disabling based (etc..)

i wonder if we could get a comment from an RO dev on the subject (btw anyone seen or heard from them since RO was released? been pretty quiet)
 
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#63
kfnguy2 said:
My source is not from that table... sorry.


Give it up man. Slope played a huge role. Why do you think after modeling the tiger the later Panther and Tiger 2 had slope armor? Oh because it didn't play a big role huh. Not to mention the Panther was in response to the T34 as they realized the advantages of sloped armor.
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Try again
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger1.htm
So, when a Tiger hit a T-34, the 88 mm diameter of the Tiger's round overmatched the 45 mm glacis plate of the T-34 by so much that it made no difference that the Russian tank's glacis was inclined at an angle of 60 degrees from vertical.
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And one of the many reasons later German tanks had sloped armor was because the high quality tiger armor was getting too expansive.
 
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#64
The Tigers armor was made of very high quality steel, comparing it with Sherman's is complete bs. Well, I still think the armor is fine against the tanks it's fighting in current maps, because they should penetrate it either way.

However, I don't see the logic in saying that the Tiger is ineffective because it's used at close ranges. Obviously it was designed to take out enemy tanks from outside their range and being able to withstand hits from ranges way below its effective range. Still, the closer the target, the more punch does the gun pack. Of course the Tiger loses most of its advantages at the range enemy tanks can penetrate it, but that does not mean its gun loses power when firing at targets close up.

It should pack more punch.
 
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#65
MkH^ said:
The Tigers armor was made of very high quality steel, comparing it with Sherman's is complete bs. Well, I still think the armor is fine against the tanks it's fighting in current maps, because they should penetrate it either way.

However, I don't see the logic in saying that the Tiger is ineffective because it's used at close ranges. Obviously it was designed to take out enemy tanks from outside their range and being able to withstand hits from ranges way below its effective range. Still, the closer the target, the more punch does the gun pack. Of course the Tiger loses most of its advantages at the range enemy tanks can penetrate it, but that does not mean its gun loses power when firing at targets close up.

It should pack more punch.
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Every tank in the game does this close up.
 
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#66
Yes, but while the Tiger should have no problems at all taking out T-34s from ranges way over one kilometer, it often (usually) takes several shots to kill one from even at extremely close ranges at a very steep angle on the side. This can not be explained by "not hitting the critical spot", or if it can, there's quite a bit of work to do on the damage models.
 
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#67
MkH^ said:
Yes, but while the Tiger should have no problems at all taking out T-34s from ranges way over one kilometer, it often (usually) takes several shots to kill one from even at extremely close ranges at a very steep angle on the side. This can not be explained by "not hitting the critical spot", or if it can, there's quite a bit of work to do on the damage models.
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And what about the IS2? It has a much better gun. It has the same problems.
 
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#70
Kostya.RU said:
СССР

Союз Советских Социалистических Республик.

не был уверин что ты знал что значит СССР.
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What does this have to do with the topic ... ?

Anyways, my experience more and more has shown me that the Tiger can be incredibly effective in defending itself even at closer ranges like 700-1000 meters by angling, I was in an IS-2 today and probably fired 4-5 shots at this angled Tiger and they bounced off quite a few times. While I think there are some minor bugs in the ballistics I think something else important to address is the outdated PzKpfw IV Ausf. F2 in maps like Arad and Ogledow etc.
 
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#71
After spending an hour or so on Arad today by myself (playing against bots) I found that RO does nt prtray the realisms of armor as much as it could. The sloped armor system is very faulty, as I found when I was dead on Vs a T-43/85 at under 200 meters firing the 88mm cannon at its turret, and hull many times (8) without penetrating once. At this range there is no possible way that the 88 would not punch through the armor. The impact velocity would be so high at this close range that there would be almost a zero chance of deflection. I'm not complaining about how fast the tiger dies, heck I know its not a super tank. But the 88mm cannon (while not as good as the tiger II's) packs a hell of a punch, even more so at sub 1000 meters. Please Dev's, fix this problem ASAP, you have a hell of a game on your hands and it's only going to get better!
 
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#72
noshens said:
Slope didn't play as important role back then as it does now. Do you really think tiger's engineers didn't know importance of slope? I think they did and chose what is the best for the said design.
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WTF dude.
Slope always makes a ton of difference, no matter how you look at it.

To prove my point:
slope.jpg
 
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#78
Does anyone know if overmatch is even modeled in this game?

For those who don't know what overmatch is: If the caliber of the incoming round is larger than the ACTUAL (not effective) thickness of the armor it's hitting, the slope becomes less important.

IMHO, the ONLY tank this would really apply to is the T34's. All of the other tanks' armor is thicker than the rounds that they are receiving... Correction... That Panther would also suffer from overmatch against ALL of the late war Russian tanks.
 
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#79
Guns in Game:
Overmatching of German Guns against Russian Tanks/Frontal only
88mm: T-60, T-34, KV-1S
75mm: T-60, T-34
50mm: T-60 ?

Overmatching of Russian Guns against German Tanks/Frontal only
122mm: Tiger, Panther, PzIII, PzIV, StugIII
85mm: Panther, PzIV, PzIII, StugIII
76.2mm: PzIV, PzIII, StugIII

Sucks to play german Tanker eh ? :)
 
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#80
Not if we started at realisitc ranges against each other, then the Tiger would really shine. And after reading up it does seem that Tiger's armour quality against at least the t-34 is not taken into account. And the tigers ammuntion is reported to be able to penetrate t-34 easily at ranges over 1,000 meters reliablely. Definatly think Dev's should look into this.
 
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