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No tanks?
- Thread starter Niklas
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Obviously you haven't had the pleasure of playing on a server as infantry with a tank with an MG aimbot.
This is not a case of players "letting it MG everyone". It just does. The fraction of a second where a player sticks a limb out in sight of the tank they get hit. There is no way for any infantry to do anything about it if the human player has placed the tank out of reach from flanking maneuvers (which is quite easy since the maps are so small).
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It gets worse. The AI gunner has extra-sensory perception and will start to turn the turret to face you the instant you are in LOS of the tank regardless of where the turret is facing at the time. (If it doesn't start to turn to face you then it is already busy focussing down on something else.) It will similarly instantly coax MG one-shot you in the head (at any range) and it will also fire HE often before the turret has even finished rotating to point the main gun at you - I've seen AI gunner tanks fire shells at up to 45deg. deviation from the visible bearing of the main gun.
Tanks are often turned off because they are, in all fairness, a bl**dy mess right now.
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That's not helping the argument. Even if the AI crew were modeled well, and even if there wasn't a total balance disparity between the T-34 and Pz4 due to the whacked-out damage model of one of them, you're still left with the basic problem:
How is gameplay improved by dropping death traps on the map? What does it add to have a few players in god mode playing their own little minigame while either ignoring or farming the other 60 players on the server? There's an atmosphere argument to be made for it, but it doesn't do any favors for the tactics, because the tanks are enormously better than everything else and they have no disadvantages. If there was some sort of downside to a tank role, like a longer respawn time or a large impact on reinforcements, it might give some sort of incentive for the foot soldiers to tolerate the death traps rolling around. As it is, you're better off just disabling them.
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Totally agreed, 110% Even when tanks are fighting and dying on a map, 90% of the time they only fight eachother, which usually means trading shots from eachother's spawns. What worthless tank combat!
It almost looks as if TWI built a bunch of infantry maps, and then just dropped tanks in them and called them "Combined Arms" without actually making sure that combined arms gameplay truly existed. By this, I mean gameplay where the tanks support the infantry and the infantry support the tanks. In most of RO2's levels, the tanks aren't even remotely necessary to moving up in the map, because their primary purpose is to rack up ridiculous amounts of kills and, as Mekhazzio put it, play a mini game with other tanks the entire round.
And of course, none of that is even taking into account the shambles tanks are in when it comes to hit detection, bugs, and borked armor values. Tanks not being in the game is just common sense right now, for all of these reasons. It really is a shame, because visually tanks are awesome. If TWI can get them to work correctly AND make true combined arms maps, then we might be going somewhere.
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It's pretty obvious that TWI is using the standard UT3 tank AI code, maybe with a few minor tweaks, but they haven't fixed it.
It was like this in UT3 aswell, the Tank AI both wallhacked (tracking players through not just walls, but entire buildings) and aimbots, they hit with pinpoint precision.
It's allways been terrible code, you see a tank, you run around a building trying to come at it from it's flanks, but just as you round the corner you hear the tank fire and you walk right into the shell, the thing just tracked you through the walls, and they don't miss.
But atleast in UT3, the tanks were as weak as all the other weapons, you could survive a few hits, so you could actually kill them if you had a powerup and the AVRIL ainti-tank weapon to hit it with. In Ro2 you just die instantly from a perfect and instant headshot, making it even more broken than UT3 was.
A lot needs to be done about this code, the AI apparently knows that there are walls, because it is beeing told not to fire untill you are visible (or rather, it will fire just before you are, it can see you are moving out of the cover and leads the target, shooting just before you peak out). But it is not told to ignore targets behind walls, it tracks them and anticipates their movements, when it should actually be told that it is not allowed to be aware of thease targets, that they should be ignored entirely untill visisble.
For that matter, i don't even think they are restricted to seeing targets that are in their field of view (be they behind cover or exposed, since as we've established, they see through walls), i'm quite certain they have a full 360 degree field of view, that they know where you are regardless of if they are looking in your direction or not.
The UT3 ones certainly did, even if you managed to get behind a tank because it was too buissy shooting at targets infront of it, it would just turn it's turret and blast you the moment it was done with the targets infront, it knew you where there, it just calculated that you where the lesser risk and that you could wait. That obviously needs to be solved too.
And the accuracy needs to be nerfed, by a lot, thease bastards just don't miss, they will often fire just one or at most 2 shots, because that's all it takes, insta death every time.
The AI should perform worse than a human player would, that beeing the whole incentive to multicrew tanks, they work if one manned, but they will be even better if you get a few people in there that know how to use them.
That's not the case now though, having the AI do the work means you have hyper vigilant aimbottitng wallhackers doing the work, so they are better in every way.
It was like this in UT3 aswell, the Tank AI both wallhacked (tracking players through not just walls, but entire buildings) and aimbots, they hit with pinpoint precision.
It's allways been terrible code, you see a tank, you run around a building trying to come at it from it's flanks, but just as you round the corner you hear the tank fire and you walk right into the shell, the thing just tracked you through the walls, and they don't miss.
But atleast in UT3, the tanks were as weak as all the other weapons, you could survive a few hits, so you could actually kill them if you had a powerup and the AVRIL ainti-tank weapon to hit it with. In Ro2 you just die instantly from a perfect and instant headshot, making it even more broken than UT3 was.
A lot needs to be done about this code, the AI apparently knows that there are walls, because it is beeing told not to fire untill you are visible (or rather, it will fire just before you are, it can see you are moving out of the cover and leads the target, shooting just before you peak out). But it is not told to ignore targets behind walls, it tracks them and anticipates their movements, when it should actually be told that it is not allowed to be aware of thease targets, that they should be ignored entirely untill visisble.
For that matter, i don't even think they are restricted to seeing targets that are in their field of view (be they behind cover or exposed, since as we've established, they see through walls), i'm quite certain they have a full 360 degree field of view, that they know where you are regardless of if they are looking in your direction or not.
The UT3 ones certainly did, even if you managed to get behind a tank because it was too buissy shooting at targets infront of it, it would just turn it's turret and blast you the moment it was done with the targets infront, it knew you where there, it just calculated that you where the lesser risk and that you could wait. That obviously needs to be solved too.
And the accuracy needs to be nerfed, by a lot, thease bastards just don't miss, they will often fire just one or at most 2 shots, because that's all it takes, insta death every time.
The AI should perform worse than a human player would, that beeing the whole incentive to multicrew tanks, they work if one manned, but they will be even better if you get a few people in there that know how to use them.
That's not the case now though, having the AI do the work means you have hyper vigilant aimbottitng wallhackers doing the work, so they are better in every way.
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Personally, I don't think it's even possible to make 'combined arms' work from a gameplay perspective within the basic structure the game has, regardless of map design. Armor works on too different of a scale from infantry, a map cannot be well-designed for both at the same time when you've only got 32 players on a side to populate that map with. Either the tanks are trading shots down hallways from fear of advancing into the rat's warren, or the infantry are stuck on the wide-open plains the tanks require to get maneuvering room. The player count is not high enough to support terrain that is both broad -and- dense.
I actually think RO2's tanks are really well made. The AI crew needs some work, but the systems modeling is excellent, you're actually shooting at what's inside the tank rather than just at a polygon structure. They could drop what they've got into a decent engine for rolling terrain and have a competitive tank sim without much more work needed (admittedly, that's because the tank sim genre is dismal). I just don't think the tanks have any place in the game they actually made.
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F
Field Marshal Rommel
Guest
Anybody here ever play SchutzeSepp's maps in Darkest Hour? Now those were 'combined arms' maps...Other examples were Sichartshofen's DH-Hurtgenwald or BOH-rekrut's DH-Reichswald.
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for reference: foy/raids/stoumont, aka most of the good maps
for a moment there I thought you meant what most people call "combined arms" maps where there are about 25 tanks a side and some poor infantry whose job it is to play the jogging equivalent of desert bus, cap points and otherwise get shot by tanks > 1 km away
grobut said:
was thinking this should be the basis of a lobotomy mod - have the ai assign a little timer number thing to people that determines their accuracy (so it can spam a bit more before hitting, this could also go down slowly when someone takes cover to prevent whack-a-mole distractions between 2-3 people) and also make it overkill targets - it's only ever firing 1-2 shots because by the time it comes to firing the third the first has hit you in the face
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I have a real problem with this mentality. In 95% of cases this would lead to one man tanking without any AI which in my opinion is far worse and even less realistic. Furthermore it would screw up the balance (like in RO1) as it would be even less likely that both teams would have a fully manned tank.
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hey guys,
I'm running my own LAN server and would like to use Tanks.
What are the server settings in particular that enable them because the games I have been hosting so far have been tankless and I can't see any options in the 'RO2 Server WebAdmin' for tanks.
Any help would be much appreciated!
Thanks!
I'm running my own LAN server and would like to use Tanks.
What are the server settings in particular that enable them because the games I have been hosting so far have been tankless and I can't see any options in the 'RO2 Server WebAdmin' for tanks.
Any help would be much appreciated!
Thanks!
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