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MG needs it's presence to be greater

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#62
Josef Nader said:
Plus, you're -supposed- to use LMGs like glorified semi-autos, especially at long range. Again, you're just as accurate as a rifleman, but you can get 3-4 shots off in a tight spread maximizing your chances of hitting. Sustained fire over long distances is done from a mount (like a tripod) that mitigates a lot of the recoil.
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Except 100m is not that long of a range, and even at that range, to get 3 ~ 4 shots in tight spread requires you to fire all those shots in semi auto fashion. 3 rounds burst at 100m which result in 3rd shot going well over the head of your target (or like you said, you had to aim the ground for the first shot :eek:) is not proportionately accurate representation of LMG's recoil compared to all other guns in this game.

I'm not suggesting laser accurate full auto that can be found on fixed MGs in RO2. Just that recoil should be improved since 3 ~ 5 rounds shouldn't spread beyond a human height length in 100m range.

Edit: to be more specific, I think the recoil control around level 20 ~ 30ish should be the default line for MGs.
 
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#63
Josef Nader said:
Or a periscope.

The MMG's could be made a -lot- scarier if the gunner could stay behind cover and use optics to sight his targets. Sure, he'd have no peripheral, but you also can't head-shot him as soon as he takes the gun.

It'd really make MMG's something utterly terrifying, and it might make them more viable than they are now.

I mean, I don't think anyone would mind MMG's being unstoppable, horrifying murder machines. They're stationary, random in the maps, and usually pretty flankable, so it wouldn't be -that- overpowered...
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Yes, a sight (MGZ 34 or 40) and periscope were standard with the Lafette tripod. It also included remote linkages for the trigger and traverse so that the gunner could fire while completely behind cover. There was even sighting equipment for indirect fire as well. It certainly turned the MG34/42 into a very different weapon.

Give the Russian Maxim a gunshield to compensate.
 
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#65
@Gaizokubanou

I've never fired an LMG in real life, so I wouldn't know what -is- an accurate level of recoil, but the "walking the shots onto the target" thing is done from 200m, not 100m (and I don't fire semi-auto, I merely tap the trigger so that 2-3 rounds fly out). At 100m I can fire 7-8 round bursts (not letting go of the trigger) and keep it relatively on target pretty easily. It's a matter of practice.

Again, not sure if you use the DP-28 a lot as I know the Axis weapons tend to be a -lot- more popular 'round these parts, but it has some very manageable recoil and is a very effective long range weapon. The MG34 is too, but the recoil is harder to manage.

Regardless, the vast majority of my killshots with both guns happen between 75-225m, and usually against targets too far away to even realize they're under fire until I kill them.
 
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#69
Look, really I don't care anymore... I still play this game once a week with my friends, but every time I see many disgusting things that I'm waiting for Iron Front and RO2's Mods.

Anyway regarding MGs.
Two days ago I was looking at some photo collections of my family and turning over the pages I found the old photos of my father during his military draft, when he was lieutenan (less than 40 years ago). Between those pictures a pair got my attention: there was himself firing a MG42 on bipod (I can scan them for you I you need a proof: normal soldiers were trained to fire it on tripod while officiers have to know how fire them also with bipod).

So I asked to him how it was... he said that he didn't remember the details but he was sure about somethings:

- The MG was really accurate.
- He was trained to fire also long burst (and it was not really difficult to control the weapon)
- He fired it at 50m, 100m and more (no detail here about the accuracy... he said it was stable but I don't have numbers...)

So I asked for the thing I feel strange in this game, the continuous tendency to point upward during the burst (if not controlled by the mouse). His answar was: "No way! The FAL was pointing upward after every burst, the Garand did it after every shot. The MG did not act that way."

Then I've to ask myself why realistic sims like ARMA have MGs with the same behaviours explained above: but ok RO2's MG is right... I can't way to fire at 300m in the new maps...
 
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#72
It's real easy to kill MG guys because you can instantly ADS with superb accuracy and most walls provide no protection (remember bullet penetration). In Ostfront/Darkest Hour,going into ironsights left you unable to fire for about 3 seconds,you had to take your chances firing in the unwieldy free-aim system.
 
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#73
Zookerman said:
It's real easy to kill MG guys because you can instantly ADS with superb accuracy and most walls provide no protection (remember bullet penetration). In Ostfront/Darkest Hour,going into ironsights left you unable to fire for about 3 seconds,you had to take your chances firing in the unwieldy free-aim system.
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Right, but so can they. Plus they can fire 6 bullets for every 1 of yours, and any decent MG'er won't rely on walls to keep him safe.

The ADS speed won't help you if you're dead before you realize an MG'er is in the area.
 
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#74
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#75
beh0lder said:
The MG-34 and 42 were the lifeline of the German infantry squad. The whole squads life depended on being able to set up and support the MG so the job could get done. They accounted for the overall majority of kills.The machine gunners were truly the elite of the German frontline infantry in WW2 with their whole squad tactics based around the weapon.
In RO they are slow, clumsy and usually easy targets. This is the total opposite of how they should be represented. On some maps people don't even bother taking them.

some ideas
1. faster deployment time
2. Faster reload time
4. More fluid deployment
5. More mobility
6. the option to leave it deployed somewhere, and quickly use it again when necessary. Also the ability to take cover very fast if in danger and leave the MG there.
7. better penetration through buildings and objects.
8. Some sort of concealment, maybe the ability to lay a blanket down with some brush on top of it to better conceal the MG position.
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There are a lot of posts in this thread about how to improve MG's in this game, but the real crux of the MG problem is not limited to just this game, it is apparent in all FPS games that have playable MGs. The real problem is the fact that in a game, there is no fear of loss of life, so the MG loses what it does best as a result. I mean, why not try to pop out and shoot the mg'er??? IRL if you take on an MG from a frontal assualt and actualy take it out, live or die, your country will award you it's highest medals. Why?? because it does not happen 99.999999% of the time. Mostly there will just be dead bodies in front of an MG if they dare even expose themselves infront of it.

In a game though, eh....whatever...just take a chance. Which makes the in game deploying a disadvantage because you really can't recact fast enough to counter. Which is the real problem of the MG: They are no more dangerous than any other gun in the game, but come w/ the huge disadvantage of being immobile.
 
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#76
beh0lder said:
I agree with everything you posted, the MG class feels way too vulnerable when not deployed. I think shoulder firing it with small bursts and high recoil would give the class a better shot at survival for starters.

When you deploy the MG it feels like you superglued the tripod to a cement wall, and your range of fire is sometime severely hampered, instead of being able to shimmy the tripod a little to the left to gain a better range of fire you have to undeploy and redeploy again which you usually don't have time to do in the middle of a firefight. With more freedom of deployment the MG would be alot more viable in sporadic fights.
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But you can move your mg while deployed with only moving your mouse. When you move it as much as the bipod allows it the player will raise it a little and instantly redeploy it again.
 
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#77
pepihoh said:
But you can move your mg while deployed with only moving your mouse. When you move it as much as the bipod allows it the player will raise it a little and instantly redeploy it again.
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What this guy means is that if you are in cover, you can strafe left and right to shift the gun left or right. No redeployment necessary.
 
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#78
Alot of this thread has gone into arguing about firing the mg on the move, which was always a last resort and not nearly as common as firing from from a fixed position. The whole point I was trying to make in this thread is that the MG is not represented as it should be in game if the goal of the game is to make everything as realistic as possible.

I can't speak for Soviet machine gun tactics of the time, but for the German infantry the machine gun was the most important factor in their tactics, this is because of the endurance and skill of their gunners being able to deploy on the whim of a dime and dish out overwhelming firepower on the enemy. riflemen were there to support the machine gunners and their job was to watch the flanks of the MG, support them when necessary and carry extra ammunition for them. They were stone cold killers.

German infantry were rushed to the center of the battle after long forced marches to take part in Keil und Kessel operations to catch up to the pace of the mechanized and panzer divisions (no easy task in itself) to complete the encirclement and were exhausted and usually had no time to pick and chose positioning for their mg's.

The sheer panic of being encircled would drive the Soviets into making fatal and often suicidal breakout attempts against the quickly improvised MG positions. It wasn't uncommon for entire soviet rifle divisions to be outfitted with the PPSH before a counter-attack or assault and with 1000's upon 1000's of enemy troops with fully automatic weapons coming for you a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle is not going to save you. Obviously that kind of situation would never be portrayed in this game.

I wouldn't care if they totally got rid of hip fire all together if the thing deployed correctly to actually do it's job in a realistic manner. The deployment system is total crap to the point where I think it's more effective to fire it from the hip in this game than it is to deploy.
 
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#79
beh0lder said:
I wouldn't care if they totally got rid of hip fire all together if the thing deployed correctly to actually do it's job in a realistic manner. The deployment system is total crap to the point where I think it's more effective to fire it from the hip in this game than it is to deploy.
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I wouldn't care for teh hip fire either. But as it has been proven time and time again that the mg's are pretty realistic, at least when compared to other weapons in game, I am a bit curios to know what is this "realism" you are looking for. Points we have established so far:

1. Accuracy of the MG's is similar to real life counterparts.
2. Recoil is similar to real life counterparts.
3. Deployment with bipod is possible in some places where it wouldn't be in real life, on the other hand impossible in some wher IRL it would be possible.
 
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#80
What I would like for MG's, is that I could deploy my MG while keeping my head down.

Look at how the guy is handling his MG while in cover and crouches. But to undeploy / Deploy you have to expose you'r head which can result in relatively bad case of shot in the head syndrome. Being able to deploy/undeploy while crouched in cover would help the MG's a lot.
 
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