Accuracy needs to be reduced on ALL the weapons ingame

[CaptHawkeye]

Repeating yourself doesn't make it any more true.

If he understood my point quick enough, I didn't have to use this dumb tricks.

I love it when you're snarky baby.

You have no point. That's what i'm trying to say.

It's like talking to dumb junior his.

Now I can understand how some teachers would have felt while teaching.
Teaching slow students on not that complex subject.

Since I am a teacher, I can tell you from experience how true that is.

You know what the worst realization you have is? It's that people who are just totally wrong about something (a fact or skill or such), usually refuse to learn about it the right way. They just go on believing everyone else is wrong.

 

[palco]

Dear sweet Celestia, would you back up your goddamn statements. So far, the only argument you've posed is that "other games have done it, so it must be right." I've explained to you why this is wrong, but you refuse to hear it. Instead, you just spam your uninformed opinion with the hopes of drowning me under the sheer volume of bull**** you're throwing at me.

Go back and read my former post about how I can easily land pinpoint accurate headshot on target of 50meters away at least 6 out of 10 times, while slowing moving, standing ADS.

All I gotta do is place iron sight on target's head, then the rifle rarely miss the headshot.

and in most other games, this kind of shenanigan is almost impossible or very hard to pull off.

Why should I have to repeat this again and again and again?

 

[Josef Nader]

Go back and read my former post about how I can easily land pinpoint accurate headshot on target of 50meters away at least 6 out of 10 times, while slowing moving, standing ADS.

All I gotta do is place iron sight on target's head, then the rifle rarely miss the headshot.

and in most other games, this kind of shenanigan is almost impossible or very hard to pull off.

Why should I have to repeat this again and again and again?

And you think that it's unrealistic that you only hit just over half of your shots from 50 meters? Really?

Has it never occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, "most other games" have an unrealistically high level of difficulty? Realistic and hardcore are two very different things. Hard doesn't necessarily mean realistic, and realistic isn't necessarily hard. Shooting targets with a rifle at 50 meters and hitting 6/10 times is not that hard. Having several inches of sway on your rifle after a few seconds of ADS is totally unrealistic.

It's not that hard. Condescension doesn't make your stance any more right.

 

[CaptHawkeye]

Go back and read my former post about how I can easily land pinpoint accurate headshot on target of 50meters away at least 6 out of 10 times, while slowing moving, standing ADS.

That's NOT unreasonable!!!!!!!!!!

All I gotta do is place iron sight on target's head, then the rifle rarely miss the headshot.

To quote Will Ferrel: "GIVE ME A ****ING BREAK"

and in most other games, this kind of shenanigan is almost impossible or very hard to pull off.

Why should I have to repeat this again and again and again?

Because you're absolutely convinced the sky is green, and can't understand why anyone would think that's nonsense.

 

[Gaizokubanou]

Do any of you "oh humans can't hit targets beyond 100m in combat due to various factors" forget that there is a good reason we don't use muskets anymore? Or that simple rifling without use of high explosives still brought effective range up to 300m? How about the fact that people stayed in trenches in WW1 and couldn't really move out or stick their head out that much?

If no human could do it, why bother equipping your soldiers with such weapons? Might as well as still produce those muskets because oh no, no soldiers can aim beyond 100m. If rifled gun with high explosive chemical propellant could not be aimed properly, why hide in trenches?

Go play War of Independence games if you want your 50 ~ 100m shootout where everyone misses wildly all day long.

and in most other games, this kind of shenanigan is almost impossible or very hard to pull off.

Because most other games are unrealistic?

 

[palco]

And you think that it's unrealistic that you only hit just over half of your shots from 50 meters? Really?

Has it never occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, "most other games" have an unrealistically high level of difficulty? Realistic and hardcore are two very different things. Hard doesn't necessarily mean realistic, and realistic isn't necessarily hard. Shooting targets with a rifle at 50 meters and hitting 6/10 times is not that hard. Having several inches of sway on your rifle after a few seconds of ADS is totally unrealistic.

It's not that hard. Condescension doesn't make your stance any more right.

You missed my point, I didn't say flinching 50 meter TORSO SHOTS.

I said a pinpoint HEADSHOT on 50m target while slowly moving ADS.

Headshot, not easy torso shot. at least 6 out of 10.

 

[palco]

Do any of you "oh humans can't hit targets beyond 100m in combat due to various factors" forget that there is a good reason we don't use muskets anymore? Or that simple rifling without use of high explosives still brought effective range up to 300m? How about the fact that people stayed in trenches in WW1 and couldn't really move out or stick their head out that much?

If no human could do it, why bother equipping your soldiers with such weapons? Might as well as still produce those muskets because oh no, no soldiers can aim beyond 100m. If rifled gun with high explosive chemical propellant could not be aimed properly, why hide in trenches?

Go play War of Independence games if you want your 50 ~ 100m shootout where everyone misses wildly all day long.

I said 50 meter target HEADSHOT 6 out of 10 times while slowly moving ADS in RO2.

1. 50 meter target HEADSHOTS 6 out of 10 times (not flinching torso shot)
2. while slowly moving ADS.
3. all I gotta do is place iron sight on target's head and it rarely miss HEADSHOT.

 

[Gaizokubanou]

I said 50 meter target HEADSHOT 6 out of 10 times while slowly moving ADS in RO2.

1. 50 meter target headshots 6 out of 10 (not flinching torso shot)
2. while slowly moving ADS.
3. all I gotta do is place iron sight on target's head.

What did you expect when your iron sight was on target's head? The bullet to magically sway away?

60% chance 50m headshot when you are slowly walking with gun braced and read to be fired isn't some miracle.

 

[palco]

What did you expect when your iron sight was on target's head? The bullet to magically sway away?

60% chance 50m headshot when you are slowly walking with gun braced and read to be fired isn't some miracle.

I can pull those easier than any other games in RO2.

Do you know how big a human head looks from 50 meters away
and the fact I can so easily (of course there's almost no sway or breath control function) headshot him while moving doesn't disturb you?

You obviously never have went anywhere near the firing range.

 

[dibbler67]

There are two things that ought to solve this problem.

The first, I believe, is weapon inertia. You know how when you aim a real weapon you get bunch of twitchy movements as you try to hold it still? Well, we could simulate that in game by causing your avatar to overcompensate for mouse movement. Not much, but enough that whip snap pinpoint shots are luck more often then not. However, slow-moving-while-standing shots should be as difficult (or easy) they are now, with the edition of the second thing.
​

The second is this thread: <a href="http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=66692" target="_blank">http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=66692

I have made a suggestion similar to this in the past; and I think it'd be awesome if the current DoF effect were expanded to focusing on front and rear sights or the target. These two (three?) things should keep short range engagements much as they are now but should increase the difficulty of longer shots (as we should see on many custom maps) substantially.

My $0.02
​

 

[catbarf]

Do any of you "oh humans can't hit targets beyond 100m in combat due to various factors" forget that there is a good reason we don't use muskets anymore? Or that simple rifling without use of high explosives still brought effective range up to 300m? How about the fact that people stayed in trenches in WW1 and couldn't really move out or stick their head out that much?

There's a reason we abandoned the use of full-sized rifle rounds, and it wasn't just the recoil and weight? WW2 showed that effective infantry combat took place at no more than 200-300m, and a weapon accurate to those distances would do just as well as a full-size bolt-action rifle.

 

[Gaizokubanou]

There's a reason we abandoned the use of full-sized rifle rounds, and it wasn't just the recoil and weight? WW2 showed that effective infantry combat took place at no more than 200-300m, and a weapon accurate to those distances would do just as well as a full-size bolt-action rifle.

You said it, 200 ~ 300m. That's what we have in this game under ideal condition.

I can pull those easier than any other games in RO2.

What does that have to do with realism?

Decent shooters can nail almost all of their shots on 250m man sized target, 50m head shot is not a big deal if you ever shot a gun before.

 

[Pip-boy]

Can you please back this up as opposed to just calling me a stupid twat?

I call you stupid because you are ignorant and have no idea about rifles IRL. "Twat" is your own invention, if you prefer that,

These grouping reports I have booted from a shooting forum:

Most beaters would do 3" groups at 100 yds (the worst would only group about 6" at that distance). The refurbs and good conditioned ones would do closer to 2" groups, and my 1894-receivered M39 (great condition) has grouped 5 shots under an inch at that distance.
...
Very rare to find any military rifle of that era that will consistently shoot under 3" groups at 100M.
...
At 100 yds, the group opened up to about 2 - 3"
...
My 1931 Izzy 91/30 will consistently group at 8" at 200
...
The standard that most had to meet for acceptance was 3.5 -4" in most cases with the 98K being 3"
...
Considering the quality of the ammo that's excellent for a 1939 Soviet Mosin 91/30. Mostly I use it to shoot 3" clays at 300 yards and it can hit those clays about 40-60%

Now these results may be averaged at 2" at 100m, 4" at 200m. This, considering the use of modern ammo, as most of today's shooters won't feed it such crap like Wolf or Barnaul that has steel and aluminum casings.
You with me so far?
Like I wrote, there is a difference between these (bolt) rifles and semiauto rifles that always have an accuracy disadvantage due to the gas system they use.
So knowing this the game should have a) according spread for bolt rifles, b) even larger spread for semiauto rifles and c) difference in precision between german and soviet ammo.

Now add to that more sway (as there should be, because the above figures come from eithe bipod+prone or sandbag+prone, not in combat and no stress) and we may have a more correct game.

Nitpicking and splitting hairs - maybe. But this game is supposed to be different from COD, TF, CS and the rest, that's why I personally like it over the other games.

As for "how" - very simple, re-introduce spread like there was in RO1. It's not much to ask.

Ps:
there is also a variation between pre-war and pre-ussr Mosins and other weapons, because just like every other "disposable" weapon during the war they were often manufactured with much less care, by people with little or no education (even children in USSR), they skipped often certification tests, and hence precision was lower.
Eg, quality vs quality, as Lenin liked the idea so much, plus wartime necessity.

 

[Gaizokubanou]

2 ~ 8 inch bullet spread over 100 ~ 300m is fine by me, probably very realistic as well.

 

[palco]

@ Gaizokubanou
Please visit local firing range and fire actual weapon and watch exactly where your bullet hit regardless of your aim with 100 meter target board.

You talk really proudly for someone who never actually fired a single bullet in real life.
Please.

 

[Gaizokubanou]

@ Gaizokubanou
Please visit local firing range and fire actual weapon and watch exactly where your bullet hit regardless of your aim with 100 meter target board.

You talk really proudly for someone who never actually fired a single bullet in real life.
Please.

You been to firing range and handled real firearms? That's why your reasons for reducing RO2's gun accuracy is based on other video games?

Not to mention one of the video games you mentioned contradicts your argument.

 

[palco]

Yes, I served in army for 2 years and fired basic squad weapon as m16a2, m249, m240 and watched m9 miss the close target quite a bit.

Also playing FPS was somehow my pasttime event, so I might know better and do far better than you in some of FPS games I played.

I played both realistic, arcadic shooters apparently knowing that the game I was playing had somewhat realistic system or not.

I guarantee.

 

[Josef Nader]

I call you stupid because you are ignorant and have no idea about rifles IRL. "Twat" is your own invention, if you prefer that,

These grouping reports I have booted from a shooting forum:

Most beaters would do 3" groups at 100 yds (the worst would only group about 6" at that distance). The refurbs and good conditioned ones would do closer to 2" groups, and my 1894-receivered M39 (great condition) has grouped 5 shots under an inch at that distance.
...
Very rare to find any military rifle of that era that will consistently shoot under 3" groups at 100M.
...
At 100 yds, the group opened up to about 2 - 3"
...
My 1931 Izzy 91/30 will consistently group at 8" at 200
...
The standard that most had to meet for acceptance was 3.5 -4" in most cases with the 98K being 3"
...
Considering the quality of the ammo that's excellent for a 1939 Soviet Mosin 91/30. Mostly I use it to shoot 3" clays at 300 yards and it can hit those clays about 40-60%

Now these results may be averaged at 2" at 100m, 4" at 200m. This, considering the use of modern ammo, as most of today's shooters won't feed it such crap like Wolf or Barnaul that has steel and aluminum casings.
You with me so far?
Like I wrote, there is a difference between these (bolt) rifles and semiauto rifles that always have an accuracy disadvantage due to the gas system they use.
So knowing this the game should have a) according spread for bolt rifles, b) even larger spread for semiauto rifles and c) difference in precision between german and soviet ammo.

Now add to that more sway (as there should be, because the above figures come from eithe bipod+prone or sandbag+prone, not in combat and no stress) and we may have a more correct game.

Nitpicking and splitting hairs - maybe. But this game is supposed to be different from COD, TF, CS and the rest, that's why I personally like it over the other games.

As for "how" - very simple, re-introduce spread like there was in RO1. It's not much to ask.

Ps:
there is also a variation between pre-war and pre-ussr Mosins and other weapons, because just like every other "disposable" weapon during the war they were often manufactured with much less care, by people with little or no education (even children in USSR), they skipped often certification tests, and hence precision was lower.
Eg, quality vs quality, as Lenin liked the idea so much, plus wartime necessity.

No, there isn't. Rifles tend to be very accurate in real life. Barring any sort of defective ammunition or weaponry, you're going to get a very tight spread from a benched rifle. Ignoring the human factor, a rifle is going to put a bullet within a very small diameter of where the shooter wants to place it.

Regardless, real bullet spread is usually determined by the quality of the rifling, quality of the ammunition, the dimensions of the weapon, and the environmental conditions. Pistols tend to have a wide spread due to their short barrels and single point of support (your hands on the grip). Rifles tend to have very accurate spreads due to their long barrels and three points of support (your shoulder, your hand on the fore-grip, and your hand on the trigger). The spread of the bullets at a range of 100m is going to be -trivial- for a rifle considering the velocity of the round and the precision of the weapon.

Which is -exactly- what I bloody said, you condescending prick. Grab a ruler, put one end of it at the center of your chest, and measure. 4" would still put a bullet right through one of your lungs unless you're some kind of small-torso'd midget. Not to mention that is using the 200 yd spread. 2" at 100 yards wouldn't even move the round off your heart.

And as I've hashed and rehashed a hundred times in this thread, there are -plenty- of factors to simulate combat stresses on you, the player, in game not the least of which is the -other players shooting back at you-. There is sway, just not an exaggerated amount. There -is- challenge, difficulty, and a learning curve to shooting, but it's not the drunken wavering that you guys are so keen on.

Seriously, fire some goddamn synapses before you start arguing.

 

[Gaizokubanou]

Yes, I served in army for 2 years and fired basic squad weapon as m16a2, m249, m240 and watched m9 miss the close target quite a bit.

Also playing FPS was somehow my pasttime event, so I might know better and do far better than you in some of FPS games I played.

I played both realistic, arcadic shooters apparently knowing that the game I was playing had somewhat realistic system or not.

I guarantee.

So are why did you bring up ARMA as an example of realism when that game contradicts everything you said with 200m+ gun fights? Remember your basic training test and the range you had to hit the man sized pop up targets?

 

[palco]

So are why did you bring up ARMA as an example of realism when that game contradicts everything you said with 200m+ gun fights? Remember your basic training test and the range you had to hit the man sized pop up targets?

In what way ARMA contradict real life ballistics?

You must have confused me with someone else, but I never said anything about +200m gunfight.

I only talked repeatedly about how easy it is to hit 50m target head while slowly moving, standing ADS in RO2, which is quite unrealistic in my opnion.

Focus kid.