Why are the Mgs so unbalanced
- Thread starter Hesgad
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I think I saw DP28 videos where the bipod was very flimsy, collapsing slightly during firing, and probably makes the aim dip rather than rise.
Girl firing with mg-34 - YouTube
Video 1: A normal/small framed woman shooting the MG34 whilst prone. The bipod appears to be propped in such a way that if flexed from the recoil, it will become 'taller' and raise the barrel. Despite this, when she fires, the weapon recoils noticeably rearwards. And while the barrel is raised slightly from the flexing bipod, the woman is raised up even more from being pushed back. She is effectively leaning into the buttstock, and when it pushes back against her from the recoil, she is 'propped up' slightly. Since the front of the weapon does not go up as much, the result is that the barrel is tilted down. I.e. point of aim lowers during firing.
MG 34 - YouTube
Video 2: Original MG34 training video. Besides just being plain interesting, showing the basic features, near the beginning and at the end, one can see how it reacts when shooting single and full auto. It seems to have a real kick to it, even on single fire, but mostly backward movement. Near the end especially, the weapon seems to dip downwards slightly under full auto. I think this is the bipod arms flexing slightly when weapon is forced backwards. Maybe due to the shooter being not properly supported and braced for the recoil. And this maybe because of it being an illustrational video for the trigger operation.
MG34 Teaser - YouTube
Video 3: A properly supported, heavy man, shooting it properly supported. There seems to be neither rise nor dip of the aim. Just a lot of shaking. I attribute the lack of muzzle flip/dip to the man being able to resist the recoil forces so well.
MG34 - YouTube
Video 4: A small framed man, laying on concrete. Single fire only. The bipod appears to be tilted the opposite way of the first video. This makes the barrel fall lower when the bipod flexes under recoil. This video further illustrates the kick of the weapon. The point of aim clearly goes down from the recoil. The front collapses and the man is propped upwards. I propose this is due to him being less capable of resisting the recoil and the incorrect positioning of the bipod.
Conclusion: MG34 can dip either way or remain neutral, depending on the stance of the shooter, their ability to resist the recoil, and the way the bipod is positioned. The more forward lean of the bipod, the more the barrel will tend to rise if the weapon moves backwards during recoil. Since the shooter himself usually is propped upwards by recoil, the aim tendency should be either neutral (if trained) or to dip slightly rather than always go up like in the game.
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Remember kids, in a few hours will be the best time to level up your machine guns you will ever have cos of all the new players
(Supposing you played beta and arnt a new player yourself)
Sssh
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Totally, utterly wrong.
As a gunner, I was the person in the platoon that had the longest range and greatest accuracy. The gun is designed that way. For example, the modern SAW fires exactly the same bullet as the assault rifle. It doesn't even fire that much faster, if at all. The only difference between the two weapons is weight and barrel length.
These two things are not handicaps, like TWI and so many people seem to think. They are benefits. They are what allow the gun to fire further, more accurately and hit harder. We were taught in the army that the average rifleman can hit targets out to 300m at will, but the standard gunner can do the same thing out to 500m, with the same bullet. The difference is the gun.
No one's job is to miss. That is why the in-game "suppression" mechanic is the most unrealistic immersion breaking and silly mechanic in the game. People do NOT get suppressed by bullets that miss. They get suppressed by seeing the bullets hit anything that moves., You can't do that from a bipod by spraying and praying. It's that simple. The gun is heavier so it can handle the recoil better, but that doesn't mean it can do it for a whole belt at once.
So what you just said is not only the wrong thing to do if you want to help your team, it will in fact get you killed. While you're spraying like a madman and not hitting anything, someone somewhere will popup and kill you. It's all about fire discipline. You MUST conserve your ammo. You MUST make every shot count. You MUST kill as many people as you can. THAT is what the gun is for. Not scaring people.
What you are thinking about is what a heavy MG support platoon would do, but they will be using crew served tripod mounted MG's fitted with optical sights, and located a 1000m from the battle. These maps and the kit we are issued means you are NOT one of THOSE gunners. Your gun simply can not do that sort of thing without the proper accessories.
Your job is to run around acting like a whole platoon of riflemen. You are there to kill as many people as possible, and you have the weapon to do it. You can't do that by wasting ammo. That is why so many gunners run around screaming for ammo. They started out with something like 200 rounds, then they killed maybe one or two people, and have no ammo left. I kill one or two people per belt/magazine. So I still have plenty of ammo to kill another two, and another two.
THAT is what the gun is for.
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Have you ever fired a machine gun from the bipod? I have. It does indeed climb. Think about it, the bipod allows you to rasise and lower the barrel, doesn't it? So the barrel isn't locked on the vertical axis (unlike a tripod). When you fire a few rounds, the gun jumps backwards into your shoulder, but your shoulder is flexible. After a few rounds, your shoulder starts to rotate backwards, which drops the rear of the gun, and thus raises the sights.
That is why you only fire 3 round bursts. The first 3 bullets leave the gun before the recoil has the chance to build up and raise the barrel. By stopping at that point, you allow your shoulder to spring back, and the barrel comes down again. Long bursts ONLY work when you have the gun on a tripod that weighs more than the gun, and can be locked so that it will not traverse or elevate unless you use the gears of the tripod to adjust it.
The human body is simply too flexible to allow you to be that accurate using nothing more than a bipod for support. The bipod does nothing to control recoil. It simply allows you to rest the barrel on a surface and steady it. When you fire, you still feel the full recoil. Tripods work differently. The gunner doesn't feel the recoil because the tripod is absorbing it.
Remember, when you are looking through your sights, it may seem like the barrel is jumping up wildly, but it's not. It may be raising the tip of the barrel by half an inch. But half an inch is a wild miss at 100m, let alone 300.
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I've never had to change the barrel, not once. I've never even seen it get hot. If you are using it correctly, it shouldn't.
See the MG-34 is a GPMG, while the DP-28 is an LMG. The difference is one is ONLY meant to be running and gunning with the infantry (the LMG), while the GPMG is supposed to be able to run and gun with the infantry (the way we are supposed to use it) and also to act as a heavy long rang tripod mounted MG in the sustained fire role.
For THAT role, you need to be able to change the barrel, but in this game if you are doing that, you are doing it wrong. The maps and the game mechanics are simply not designed around the concept of long range sustained fire support. The maps are too small or the sight lines too restricted.
If you are one of those gunners that complains that suppression doesn't stop the popup riflemen, its because you are too close to fire the way you are trying to fire. In the real world you would die too. To set up somewhere and fire long bursts that do nothing but saturate an area with bullets, you need to be far enough away and with enough friendly infantry between you and the enemy, to prevent the enemy from getting closer and killing you. If they get that close, it's time to pull back.
That's why you simply can't do what you are trying to do in this game. The role you are given by the game, is NOT the role you are trying to play. It's the same as the difference between the standard rifleman and the sniper. One is MEANT to stay way back taking long range shots outside the effective range of the enemy. The other is meant to get in close and kill the enemy who have now been pinned by that long range fire.
That latter role is the only MG role this game is set up for.
Let me put it this way, if you are trying to fire very long bursts to "suppress" an area, then you need belts that are 100 or 200 rounds in length and you need to feed them as fast as you can. But if you are meant to be firing short bursts and then moving on, you want smaller belts that are well controlled and can't get caught up on things, and don;t need a second guy to help feed the rounds.
That is why the 50 round and 75 round drums were made. They are the things that turns the GPMG into an LMG. They are there so that even though you have less rounds, you are much more mobile. Why would they even exist, if the job was simply to spray as many rounds as fast as you can from a fixed location? Long belts are much better for that.
In this game, you are an assault gunner, not a long range support gunner. You CAN do long range support, but not as good as the unit specifically equipped to do it, just like the ordinary rifleman CAN kill guys out to 800m, but nowhere near as easy as the sniper.
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Actually what I see is that they both climb, but one is being controlled better. Look at the MP-40 when the guy is firing in slow motion (around 35 seconds in). You can clearly see he is pulling the barrel down quite forcefully. Watch at the instant the gun stops firing when he empties the mag. The nose drops dramatically because of the downward pressure he was using to hold it.
There is one other thing to note, however. Watch the tip of that barrel. It is moving by a half inch or so on every shot. It' doesn't look like it's bouncing or climbing very much because you are not looking down the sights. But what I see happening in that slow mo section, is exactly what I see happening when I fire the MP40. The tip of the barrel is moving around slightly, but the small angles are magnified by how far the target is away from you, so the gun goes from toes to nose on each shot, but side on the barrel doesn't seem to climb that much.
Its the small angles of rotation that cause the problem, not the amount the barrel actually moves. It doesn't move far, and from point blank it wouldn't miss with any of the rounds, but it quickly turns into a widely dispersed cone of bullets the further away from the gun you get, kind of like a shotgun shell. In close the pellets act like one big bullet. but they spread out as they get further down range.
It's this that makes SMG's so useful in close. They are short, so a small movement equates to a large rotation, allowing you to quickly bring the weapon to bear on widely dispersed targets. The downside is, that a small movement also makes the sights move a long way, and thus your accuracy is a lot lower. it's harder to make small adjustments without the aimpoint swinging wildly.
You really can kill someone at 300m with an MP40. The problem is hitting them.
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Problem is the MG are far from accurately modelled.
Long barrel = higher muzzle velocity = greater accuracy.
If the recoil of the MG34 and DP was so great they could never been used as there intended role as a fire support weapon, and would of been binned.
When you cannot even hit a target under controlled burst at 30-40 metres something is wrong.
I can score a kill on controlled burst with a mp40 or ppsh at 70 to 80 metres. Even a kill with mp40 at 154 metres. But I cannot kill consistently with a mg-34 on a short 3-4 round burst on a target with crosshair starting at the kneecap or chest of the target at 30 to 40m.
This is the same problem as they have in RO one where they nerf the MG42, if anything the 34 and 42 and dp was more accurate in RO then they are in RO2.
Tripwire has an issue with MG's and I do not know what it is but they have never provided an accurate model of a MG on bipod, the recoil on a 3-5 round burst. Has the last bullet pointing 2 meters above the target at 30-40 metres how could a MG suppress an area at 500m if that was the case.
As usual they have selective realism values, let have realistic mp-40, but have an unrealistic MG 34.
Long barrel = higher muzzle velocity = greater accuracy.
If the recoil of the MG34 and DP was so great they could never been used as there intended role as a fire support weapon, and would of been binned.
When you cannot even hit a target under controlled burst at 30-40 metres something is wrong.
I can score a kill on controlled burst with a mp40 or ppsh at 70 to 80 metres. Even a kill with mp40 at 154 metres. But I cannot kill consistently with a mg-34 on a short 3-4 round burst on a target with crosshair starting at the kneecap or chest of the target at 30 to 40m.
This is the same problem as they have in RO one where they nerf the MG42, if anything the 34 and 42 and dp was more accurate in RO then they are in RO2.
Tripwire has an issue with MG's and I do not know what it is but they have never provided an accurate model of a MG on bipod, the recoil on a 3-5 round burst. Has the last bullet pointing 2 meters above the target at 30-40 metres how could a MG suppress an area at 500m if that was the case.
As usual they have selective realism values, let have realistic mp-40, but have an unrealistic MG 34.
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Not really. I did know this from military training, but even some basic research would help a total noob to understand. Let me show you. This is from the MG 34 wiki page:
Follow the link to the page about LMG's in general, and you will see:
Now, in the NZ Army, the heaviest calibre MG we had was the 7.62mm FN GPMG. So it was called a heavy machine gun, but the proper definition would be medium machine gun, simply because of the normal rifle calibre bullet it fires.
So just by doing a quick google search and reading a couple of wiki pages, you should be able to figure out that most people use the LMG incorrectly.
Read the LMG article a little further and you will find a link to a page describing "suppressive fire":
Now that does make it seem like you don't actually try to hit people, until you get to the end, where it points out that depending on their cover or the power of the weapon, people and equipment may be killed or damaged. This is because you are NOT shooting to miss, you are shooting to hit, but missing because of the cover. So if your weapon can penetrate the cover, they get hit.
It goes on to say:
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See the post I made above referring to the difference between a LMG and HMG (or medium if you prefer).
The MG-34 is a dual purpose weapon. It's like the Mosin Nagant or the K98. With nothing on it, it is the standard infantryman's rifle, effective out to 300m or so. Stick a telescopic sight on it, and it becomes a sniper rifle effective out to 800m.
Same basic gun, totally different role on the battlefield. The same goes for the MG 34. When it has a bipod and 50 round drum, it is a LMG, and it CAN NOT be used for sustained fire support. It has to have a special heavy tripod that locks the gun down and works more like an artillery piece than a rifle.
With the lighter "furniture" the gun is too powerful to fire more than short bursts. It will get out of control and you will be hitting nothing but clouds and bushes.
When you spawn, does your MG have a tripod? If not, and you are firing more than 3 round bursts, you are doing it wrong. In the army, they would take the gun off you and give it to someone who knows how to use it.
The DP-28 is another kettle of fish altogether. It is designed to be an LMG and only an LMG. That is why it can't take belts, doesn't have a tripod mount, and can't change barrel. A machine gun that can't change barrel, by definition can not fire long bursts without destroying itself.
The DP-28 is a pure LMG. The MG 34 can be an LMG or HMG (MMG), depending on the accessories, just like the K98 can be a standard rifle or a sniper rifle, depending on the accessories.
When you spawn with an MG 34, you are spawning with the LMG variant, and you better use it that way or you will not be effective and will die a lot.
Yes, it means you're a bad shot. I regularly kill at 100-200m with the MG's, and they are no harder to do it with than the rifles. Just let go of the trigger. It really is that simple. Discipline. Short bursts win fights.
There is the small matter of them firing massively different rounds. The power of the MG round is not just slightly greater, its orders of magnitude greater. Having said that, 80-90m with the MG is easy.
By being mounted on a tripod. Seriously, I am not just saying that. You are confusing two different kinds of machine gunner, which is the same as confusing the rifleman and the sniper. The roles are totally different and require different equipment and manpower.
The only thing they have done to gimp the MG's that I have found is blocking iron sights for anything but prone supported, as if you can't look down the barrel when it's not sitting on bipod, or something.
That is just stupid.
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Why even build in suppression if you make mgs as intended with greater accuracy, a rifle man is not going to pop his head up, to pop a shot if he know 9/10 he will lose the fight.
Example RO1 which saw more realistic game play. Basovka I could obtain 30-40 kills on that map with the MG on a position on the right side, The rifleman poped up and they died, they tried to run on the flank they died, the rifleman that eventually did try and kill me spend more time under the rock wall then looking above the rock wall, especially after seeing 3-4 mates under fire, even if they were 10-30 metres away.
That is real suppression.
The last map I made in RO Muyam Kurgen, there was very little cover but if you crawled have the map you could get under the enemy fire, that is supression. Supression is not a magic ability to make you vision go hazy or your gun to quaver that is 'fear'. Suppression is when you know that raising you head to shot is the stupid option.
make MG as accurate as they should be an you will start to see real suppression
Example RO1 which saw more realistic game play. Basovka I could obtain 30-40 kills on that map with the MG on a position on the right side, The rifleman poped up and they died, they tried to run on the flank they died, the rifleman that eventually did try and kill me spend more time under the rock wall then looking above the rock wall, especially after seeing 3-4 mates under fire, even if they were 10-30 metres away.
That is real suppression.
The last map I made in RO Muyam Kurgen, there was very little cover but if you crawled have the map you could get under the enemy fire, that is supression. Supression is not a magic ability to make you vision go hazy or your gun to quaver that is 'fear'. Suppression is when you know that raising you head to shot is the stupid option.
make MG as accurate as they should be an you will start to see real suppression
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Your a moron.
If you name above was ever on an Australian server, you would not ask if I could hit anything, or any other 3rd member. For a kiwi not seen your name once and all this sprouting I doubt you even played RO2 otherwise I would of seen it, by now as there really is only 3 AU/NZ servers with players on it.
I did not say I could not hit at 30-40m I said consistently, it should be a no brainer.
I said 3-5 round burst which are disciplined and controlled.
To me your Army training is either in your imagination or your a desk jockey or a choco. No one should take your words seriously.
The MG-34 is an LMG in Bipod mode the same as a DP-28 there is no difference, so stop your babbling about GPMG or LMG and HMG, seriously you going no where with it. It like talking about the Styer with it various options, your argument should be relevant in the role the gun is in not what other attachment it can do.
And no where did I say HMg, seriously you drivel crap to change the point. Unless you mention my use of the words support weapon. Which it is. It is the squad support weapon, to be moved with the squad to provide covering fire and suppress the enemy. Engagement ranges are no different they the squad at the start of an assault on a objective. After capture the LMg would move up. So we talking ranges of 50-150m dependent on terrain. It should be with the squad no where else, if you using it differently in RO, then it is you who is using it improperly.
The LMg is not realistically model in accuracy, ask the gunner that stated it thing above, or the Americans that have tested this weapon out. The American Army which run on the same engine has greater accuracy with there LMg then RO, yes different age same purpose but the accuracy is not night and day.
If you want I get a statement from some my players that are ex Australian Army or I can go to a Lt Col in the Australian Army combat simulations wing. I know.
Either way you do some serious drivel and noone should take you seriously.
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Exactly. Game "suppression" was invented to make the MG's in most FPS' somewhat useful. They always totally gimp the gun, making it less accurate or controllable than a real MG (for "balance") then they have to make the MG worthwhile by putting in fake "suppression".
In those games, your job is to scare people, and in fact that is all you can do, usually. If you're really good, you can work around it, but you are still at a disadvantage against every other class in the game.
So why TWI put it in, is beyond me. It's fake, nothing even remotely like it happens in the real world, and they only do it because they gimp the gun in some way. Why not just give us an accurate (realism wise) gun and no special game effects?
Suppression comes from the fear of death. If even a good gunner can't hit the side of a barn, you have to SIMULATE the fear of death. However, if a bad gunner can hit anything he can see, then no one will want to risk running at a gun, even in the game, and the fear is real. No need for something to simulate it.
Think about it. As the gunner, suppression mechanics are actually a disadvantage. As the gunner, you WANT fools to ignore you and run out into the open to die. The "suppression" effect just acts as a warning to the enemy that you are getting awful close to hitting him, and he will not even try. Sure that simulates guys not wanting to run at the gun, but that doesn't help you get kills or score.
What you want is people to feel like you can't hit them, so they stick their heads up and then you DO hit them. That causes real suppression, and they don't get any warning other than seeing their mates die on the kill feed.
Oh, there is another way the suppression mechanic sucks if you are the gunner. A loud MG firing a ton of rounds in your general direction is scary, period. With this game mechanic though, all the guys who DON'T get the game "suppression" now know you are NOT shooting at them. So in the real world, when you can't necessarily tell who the machine gun is shooting at, you have a suppression effect even over guys you never even knew were there. They know YOU are and they don't know if you are shooting at them.
In this game, if I don't see the suppression effect, I know the gun isn't even shooting at me, let alone hitting me. So why would I be scared? There is a gun over there to my left, but it seems to be shooting over there to my right. At least, it's not even close to me at this moment because I am not being "suppressed", so... pop-up rifleman = dead gunner.
This is where you and I differ. They ARE as accurate as they should be, it's just that you think you are a heavy support gunner firing from a tripod rather than an assault gunner firing from a bipod. I have won sniper battles against guys with telescopic sights by doing 3 round bursts. The guns are perfect - it's your tactics that need some work I think.
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So you're saying hes bull****ting about his time in the army, and then you go and talk about how "you know." and that you are acquainted with real army vets. I fail to see how an observer should be able to tell the difference between you two. Since you're so worried about people reading his 'drivel' I would assume that you care about that. Also please learn the right use of the word 'your'. Its YOU'RE a moron. Not YOUR A MORON. Guess what the latter makes you look like....
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You're a spelling nazi and I bow down to you.
Because these the comments I was given by these member as I showed them the game. And the others come directly from ex-Australian army in my team, playing in Beta.
I am not the person to make things up, so that why I said as it is. Otherwise I would sprout lies, but views cannot be the correct when they are polar opposite and I taking their word cause I know their Army creditably.
Because these the comments I was given by these member as I showed them the game. And the others come directly from ex-Australian army in my team, playing in Beta.
I am not the person to make things up, so that why I said as it is. Otherwise I would sprout lies, but views cannot be the correct when they are polar opposite and I taking their word cause I know their Army creditably.
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