MP-40 is a a death ray gun!

[Scarf Ace]

The MP40 is just fine, IMHO, but they nerfed the PPSh by adding tons of recoil to it.

Change the damn recoil back to what it was when the beta started, daggumit!

This, it was fine until they gave the PPSh gratuitous recoil.

 

[VariousNames]

MP40 is a death ray gun, that's why TW took away the barrel mags on the PPSH for balance purposes

 

[melipone]

Why don't the videos show where the bullets landed so we can see the grouping? Do you think they don't have to do anything to counter the recoil btw? If they didn't use any muscles would the gun just stay flat? I could make the gun look like that in Ostfront, I would just be using the mouse differently

Someone should strap a camera above the iron sights on a gun, then shoot full auto and see how much it moves. Didn't they also use larger rounds in WW2 than with these modern equivalents?

Now thats the realism side of things.

I'd like to see someone recording themselves getting shot then bandaging in a couple secs to stop the bleeding, then run around like you don't care

Fly over an area at speed and psychically transmit details of everyone below you without getting shot at

Sprint for a few minutes then aim and take a shot without taking time to catch your breath or get the gun steady

Guns jammed, you would have wound effects, you wouldn't go charging anywhere, it would be 100% more methodical than RO, there would be far more bolts to semi/smg ratio.

BUT remember, its a game! All those above things are there for gameplay.

Realism is used to enhance gameplay, not to substitute it. Always been that way in RO

 

[Mobius One]

In conclusion: the MP40 kills you by accuracy, the PPSH kills you by rate of fire (and bigger rounds )

Actually, the PPSH-41 uses smaller rounds, chambered in 7.62x25mm ammunition versus the MP-40's 9x19mm. The 7.62x25 round is faster in velocity than the 9x19 because of the longer case length and bottleneck design, so in theory, with equivalent barrel lengths, the 7.62x25 round should go farther than the 9x19, assuming a roughly similar ballistic coefficient.

Of course, the drawbacks is that the smaller bullet size leads to less weight per projectile than the 9x19 round, which would lead to less "stopping power", but the velocity advantage is a good thing for the particular round.

 

[Homuth]

Actually, the PPSH-41 uses smaller rounds, chambered in 7.62x25mm ammunition versus the MP-40's 9x19mm. The 7.62x25 round is faster in velocity than the 9x19 because of the longer case length and bottleneck design, so in theory, with equivalent barrel lengths, the 7.62x25 round should go farther than the 9x19, assuming a roughly similar ballistic coefficient.

Of course, the drawbacks is that the smaller bullet size leads to less weight per projectile than the 9x19 round, which would lead to less "stopping power", but the velocity advantage is a good thing for the particular round.

At ranges less then 100 meters which we are often dealing with in RO? I doubt the faster round of the PPSH will make a difference. However, this is Stalingrad, where the PPSH should shine, which it also does when used right, and has a drum magazine. Room clearing, factory hall fighting and other very close quarter fighting, it's superb, and it is that way in the game... hell I pick one up every time I find one.

 

[Grobut]

The MP40 is just fine, IMHO, but they nerfed the PPSh by adding tons of recoil to it.

It's really not, it has no recoil at all, and it is far to accurate at far to long ranges.

"Ohh but Grobut! We just saw a video of a guy shooting one and the barrel barely climbed!"

Yup, and that's because the guy shooting it is bracing against the recoil, in essence, he's pulling down on the gun with his left arm as he fires it, counteracting the recoil.

And all the auto-guns in HoS try to simulate this, IE you have to pull a bit down on the mouse as you fire to keep it on target, except the MP-40, where there is zero recoil..


That just shoulden't be, there should be recoil, it should not be as bad as it was in Ost, god no, but there should be recoil.
If you are going to simulate the need to brace on the PPSh, then the MP-40 should simulate it too.

"What do you mean the accuracy isen't right Grobut? I read on Wikipedia that the MP-40 has an effective range of 100 meters!"

Yup, but effective-range does not equal accuracy, the effective-range is the maximum range at which the round can still be considdered lethal, but for anything past that range, performance can not be garuenteed.

The 9x19mm round does not have great long range accuracy, it's power, weight, shape, none of it is ment for long range accuracy, and even the modern H&K MP5 series SMG's, which have better accuracy than the MP-40 did, cannot snipe at 100 meters.

Also, the MP-40 fires from the open bolt position, and that is bad news for accuracy, as it means the bolt will slam into the battery just prior to fiering, and the impact of that is likely to thow off your aim a bit just as the gun fires.

Of course, the drawbacks is that the smaller bullet size leads to less weight per projectile than the 9x19 round, which would lead to less "stopping power", but the velocity advantage is a good thing for the particular round.

Actually, that's not entirely accurate, as the 7.62x25 tends to yaw as it penetrates the target, whereas the 9x19 tends to just punch straight through. This means that both rounds actually tend to leave a similar size wound profile, so the difference in "stopping power" is very minor between the two, enough to be statistically unimportant.

The MP 40 was used by the british rather than the sten, it wrecked havoc at Arnhem and before dunkirk performed good accuracy in taking out the riflemen.... It was one of the best SMG's along with the Thompson

That's not really accurate, the Germans LOVED the PPSh, and it was not uncommon for them to use it, instead of their MP-40 any chance they got, the Germans even build their own, they made a direct copy of the PPSh rechambered to 9x19mm and using MP-40 magazines.

And infact, it is the PPSh that is considdered the more accurate gun of the two (not that it had great accuracy, it's still an open-bolt SMG), the 7.62x25mm had better flight charecteristics at ranges, and a longer effective-range aswell.



So in conclusion:

PPSh needs a bit less recoil, and better accuracy.
MP-40 needs to have recoil, and worse accuracy.

They should both be about equally controllable (but actually require you to pull a bit down on your mouse to do so), and none of them should be able to snipe with precision at 100m, at that range we should be talking about groupings, not perfect bullseye hits.

 

[Gergination]

I can't understand why the PPSH has so much recoil while the MP40 has almost none. Yet you watch these videos of people shooting them and neither gun seems to be throwing their shooter off at all.

And to all the people claiming that the MP40 was so awesome and that Germans make the best stuff since sliced bread. The Germans used captured PPSH's extensively on the Eastern Front. Now why would they do that if the MP40 was superior in every way...?

 

[TheRealGunther]

Took ALOT! of digging you have no idea how many stupid air soft guns exist ...anyone who makes airsoft target practice videos should be took out and shot lol.

Mp40 at 25yrds
German MP40 Submachine Shooting in Vegas - YouTube

ppsh-41 at 25yards
PPSH-41 - YouTube

Ok user skill comes into play its hard to tell who was the better marksman but it was widely known that he mp40 was the more accurate...this give you an idea of what they could do at 25rds tho remember these patterns would double at 50 and so on at 200 yards you would be lucky to hit the target out of a whole clip aiming 5-6 foot above the target accounting for bullet drop.(resources)-http://www.warriortalk.com/archive/index.php/t-87140.html?...handy ballistics calculator just add bullet weight and velocity-http://www.handloads.com/calc/

the point im trying to make is both weapons is very effective at closer ranges in their own way but at range not so much.

 

[OnCrack]

I don't think this has to be a MP40 vs ppsh argument, instead you should focus on the impact the mp40 has against riflemen, i've lost a lot of 100m engagements as a riflemen just because the suppression effect and superior rof and accuracy of mp40 got me before i could adjust my sight (and i am pretty fast with that).

As mp40 class i can easily snipe moving targets up to 80-100 meters, and in cqb it's who shoots first rather than who has the best rof that wins.

And because of this bs thing that you can carry 2 weps and tons of stuff and grenades, i don't fear any range... It's like being the ultimate rambo.

ps: where's my minigun?

 

[greenlemonade]

Part of the unbalance is the the in-game PPSH is shortchanged in its default loadout.
Drum mags were VERY common.

Perhaps beating the single player campaign should unlock the drum mag early. Perhaps all RO1 owners should get drum mag.

That said, the MP40 does seem to need a tiny bit of recoil (though Ive never shot one in RL so I dont know.)

 

[Grobut]

Ok user skill comes into play its hard to tell who was the better marksman but it was widely known that he mp40 was the more accurate...this give you an idea of what they could do at 25rds tho remember these patterns would double at 50 and so on at 200 yards you would be lucky to hit the target out of a whole clip aiming 5-6 foot above the target accounting for bullet drop.

Thouse vids are useless for comparing accuracy, first of all, to get an accurate picture, you would either need to find 2 shooters of equal skill (though how you would determine that, i don't know), or even better, one shooter who has equal experiance on both weapons.
The difference between an experianced and novice shooter can be quite jarring..

You would also need to make sure the guns are of equal condition, thease are either Repro's or they are 70+ year old guns, so there are some factors in there to considder (like does the barrel even have any rifling left anymore? Has the barrel suffered heat damage from excessive and careless use?).

And finally, they would need to be fired on Semi-Auto to determine their base accuracy, not on full-auto, which only shows you how well or poorly the shooter can handle the recoil (and the higher the ROF of the gun, the more likely he handles it poorly, ROF does matter, and yes, that means the PPSh is likely to shoot wider FA groupings, but that's not what matters, what matters is, how accurate is the first round that leaves the gun? That's your base accuracy).

 

[BigMorgan]

I heard that once we get PPSh drum mags it's gonna reduce the recoil.
Not sure if that's confirmed but it would propably make PPSh better than MP.

+

=

 

[Examiner2]

The mp40 has a ton of recoil in real life*

Old woman shoots MP40 Machine gun - YouTube

*If you're an old woman.

 

[the_Monk]

Part of the unbalance is the the in-game PPSH is shortchanged in its default loadout.
Drum mags were VERY common.

Perhaps beating the single player campaign should unlock the drum mag early. Perhaps all RO1 owners should get drum mag.

That said, the MP40 does seem to need a tiny bit of recoil (though Ive never shot one in RL so I dont know.)

DRUM mags were also VERY prone to jamming. Want that for the PPSH too? It's one of the reasons they went with the clip mag later on.

If the MP40 is to get more recoil then it must be just that, a tiny bit of recoil otherwise the realworld accuracy advantage of the MP40 over the PPSH will be negated. Unless of course then in turn they nerf the PPSH's rate of fire.

IMO, the guns are fine. People need to balance the guns and maps by constantly adjusting their gameplay. The problem is most FPS'ers have become so used to "customizing" character, gun and even skill-set that they've forgotten what it means to adjust their playstyle to compensate for.....wait for it.......imbalance.

Asymmetrical balance is what RO2 is all about. I sincerely hope TWI doesn't listen to the voices clamoring for symmetrical weapon/map balance just for the sake of balance. Artificial balance has no place in a game such as RO2 claims to be. Let's not make those claims false.

EDIT: And to be clear. I'm a boltie rifleman through and through. Sure I've gotten killed by an MP40 from range. So what. I can also one-shot them in CQB which has got to be maddening for the SMG'er who expected me to die.

 

[Grobut]

The mp40 has a ton of recoil in real life*

*If you're an old woman.

Actually, that vid perfectly demonstrates that it does have recoil, because the shooter in this case is not strong enough to counteract it (or maybe she doesen't even try because she has no experiance with FA weapons, one or the other i'd say), and thus, we see the barrel does climb if left to it's own devices.

 

[the_Monk]

Actually, that vid perfectly demonstrates that it does have recoil, because the shooter in this case is not strong enough to counteract it (or maybe she doesen't even try because she has no experiance with FA weapons, one or the other i'd say), and thus, we see the barrel does climb if left to it's own devices.

I would hate to have seen what grandma's face would have looked like had that been a PPSH!

 

[Grobut]

I would hate to have seen what grandma's face would have looked like had that been a PPSH!

I think that stubborn old crone would have taken it with a stiff upper lip

 

[Josef Nader]

I think that stubborn old crone would have taken it with a stiff upper lip

She'd never let go of it, as she'd be able to wheel herself around by simply holding the trigger...

 

[TheRealGunther]

Thouse vids are useless for comparing accuracy, first of all, to get an accurate picture, you would either need to find 2 shooters of equal skill (though how you would determine that, i don't know), or even better, one shooter who has equal experiance on both weapons.
The difference between an experianced and novice shooter can be quite jarring..

You would also need to make sure the guns are of equal condition, thease are either Repro's or they are 70+ year old guns, so there are some factors in there to considder (like does the barrel even have any rifling left anymore? Has the barrel suffered heat damage from excessive and careless use?).

And finally, they would need to be fired on Semi-Auto to determine their base accuracy, not on full-auto, which only shows you how well or poorly the shooter can handle the recoil (and the higher the ROF of the gun, the more likely he handles it poorly, ROF does matter, and yes, that means the PPSh is likely to shoot wider FA groupings, but that's not what matters, what matters is, how accurate is the first round that leaves the gun? That's your base accuracy).

I think I mentioned user skill played a factor and to be honest neither did very well.As for semi auto the mp40 didn't have semi auto fire while the ppsh did.

I have shot a mp40 it was a post war semi auto made from the same specs as the war one(besides fully auto). I have a type 3 federal fire arms license heck I can order you a mp40 if you want one.PPsh for that matter I have shot guns all my life. I know a 9mm carbine used in ww2 isn't accurate at 100yards.A 2-4 inch pattern is good at 25rds the barrel is made for rapid fire not high accuracy.

This is just my word and I want argue check out my ballistics calculator I added in a link.A 5 foot drop is hardly accurate at 200yrds no matter how skilled the shooter is the shot pattern will be worse than x7 what it was at 25 yards.Do the math lol your arguing your own point which is(in game) smg's give a rifleman a good run for their money at 200m.

actually Im happy with the smg's accuracy at 50m after 100m they should be toned down if its realism their aiming for but that's just my opinion.If they added a "little' kick to the mp40 they wouldn't have to decrease accuracy at close range the kick would do that for them.The ppsh kicked like a mule in ro1 you just have to learn to fire short burst or roll the mouse down.

 

[SillyMoose]

The MP40 has basically zero recoil (the sights just wiggle a bit when you fire) and is essentially a fully automatic headshot gun. I have actually managed to SNIPE with it on Fallen Fighters, killing people at 150-200m distances

I know what you mean... its got to the point where I'll just snipe with the thing. Leave it on 100m you'll hit 200+ no problem.